Talk:Śūnyatā

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Does anyone know the Chinese character for Śūnyatā? --71.238.27.47 (talk) 23:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 Ratnaguṇasaṃcayagāthā 2:9-10 2 My changes 3 To do 4 Void Versus Dao? 5 Style 6 Mind or consciousness 7 Embodiment

[edit] Ratnaguṇasaṃcayagāthā 2:9-10

• rūpaṁ na prajñeti rūpi nāsti prajñā
  • Form is not prajna; what has form is not prajna.
• na ca eti prajñeti tesa nāsti prajñā
  • They are not wisdom, and wisdom is not in them
• ākāśadhātusama tasya na cāsti bhedaḥ||9
  • It is the same as the dimension of space, and of it there is no crack.
• ārambanānaprakṛtī sa anantapārā
  • The underlying character of the sense-attributes of things is, similarly, without any ultimate end.
• sattvāna yā ca prakṛtī sa anantapārā
  • The underlying character of beings is, similarly, without any ultimate end.
• ākāśadhātuprakṛtī sānantapārā
  • The underlying character of space is, similarly, without any ultimate end.
• prajñāpi lokavidunām sānantapārā||10
  • So, the wisdom of the world-knowers is boundless.

[edit] My changes

• "Concept" may be an inaccurate term to describe sunnata. I think concepts themselves might be empty according to doctrine. But I think it is safe to say sunnata is an aspect of Buddhist doctrine, philosophy, and practice.

• Article formerly said something like "most often associated with Nagarjuna" or words to that effect. Not that I have anything against Nagarjuna, but personally, I have encountered sunnata for years and have yet to read or comprehend Nagarjuna. At the end of the day, nobody's counting the frequency of associations. (Don't know what Google says, and don't care either; Probably, most Buddhists in the world don't have Internet access.)

• I imagine the controversial thing I did, was to take away the hedging about origins. If it proves that I've contradicted Mahayana doctrine (I don't know that I have), then we could add a sentence to the effect that "According to Mahayana doctrine, the theme of shunyata first emerged in the XXX sutra".

--Munge 09:17, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To do

• Capitalize Śūnyatā in section titles, rather than use template

• Did Nagarjuna originate Śūnyatā as a "consequence of dependent origination"? I doubt that; clue on [1]. I'm OK with "identifies the two", as that does sound like an innovation.

• 1st sentence of "Sunyata in the "Tathagatagarbha" Sutras" section is awkward at best. Did the author of the Mahaparinirvana really intend to say that Buddha and nirvana are "empty of...the selfless"? (If so this seems to contravene the Dhammapada 279 "all dhammas are anatta", and if so this should be noted at Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra.

• Next to last sentence should either either eliminate references to Buddha Nature, Buddha Principle, and "Bhuddic Essence" (which would be my preference) or (get ready to hit the books) clarify their relationship to tathagatagarbha (I do not seem them as identical to tathagatagarbha).

• My preference would be to provisionally define tathagatagarbha in this article as "embryo of the thus-come one". (And then we should fix Tathagatagarbha to clarify that it could be womb or embryo, thus-come or thus-gone, such that thusness refers to both that-which-is and the ability to apprehend that-which-is.)

--Munge 10:00, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Thanks, Munge, for your very interesting comments on the tathagatagarbha and sunyata section. To try to answer a few of the points you raise: I don't feel that my first sentence in that section is particularly awkward; but if you really can't bear it, and if other people feel it should be improved, then I'd certainly be prepared to alter it. As for "empty of the selfless": the Buddha of the "Mahaparinirvana Sutra" most definitely links "mahanirvana" or "mahaparinirvana" with the Buddhic Self and thus with that which is empty of the selfless. It is vital to understand that the self denied in such "tathagatagarbha sutras" is what the Buddha terms the untrue "mundane self" of the five skandhas - not the sovereign Self ("aishvarya-atman", also "Big Self" - "mahatman") of the Buddha himself. This is explicitly stated in the vast "Nirvana Sutra". As for the "Nirvana Sutra's" contradicting the dictum that all dharmas are "anatta": it depends how one understands "all" here (the Buddha in the "Nirvana Sutra" indicates that the term "all" is contingent, needing to be understood as having limitations to it); on the face of it, however, the "Nirvana Sutra" definitely does contradict that statement if one understands the statement to mean that there is no Self, Soul or Essence of any kind in connection with any dharma at all(I myself believe that the statement "all dharmas are non-self" excludes Nirvana). The Dharma (in the sense of the eternal, sustaining Truth) is said by the Buddha of the "Nirvana Sutra" to be "Eternal, Bliss, the Self, and Pure". Also, the "Nirvana Sutra" makes no discernible distinction, as far as I can see, between "Buddha-dhatu" (popularly, although perhaps unhappily, translated as "Buddha-nature") and "tathagata-garbha": the two terms are used interchangeably, indeed are appositionally paired on occasion. As for translating "tathagata-garbha" as "embryo of the thus-come one": although this is indeed one of the literal meanings of the term and thus cannot be faulted at all on that basis, the image of a Buddhic "embryo", growing, developing and then being born, is - as far as I know from many years of study of a number of the tathagatagarbha sutras - one that is only very rarely encountered, if at all in that sense. It is odd, isn't it - given the meaning of "embryo"? Or perhaps not, since the whole point about the Tathagata-garbha/Tathagata-dhatu as it is actually presented in the key sutras is that it was never created, never "develops" or evolves and never reaches an ultimate culmination - it already is perfect. It is the being him/herself who advances towards the Awakened state (which is what the garbha/dhatu is), while the garbha/dhatu itself remains ungrowing, unchanging and utterly pure, deep within the mind of each being. I tend to think it is best to stick to the Sanskrit terms , "tathagata-garbha"/"Buddha-dhatu", when speaking about this element of Buddhist soteriology and ontic reality, as long as one makes clear what the literal meaning is (as you have done) and what the connotation is on top of that (i.e. that the "garbha"/ "dhatu" is the irreducible, indestructible essence of the being). I also think it's best to use the term "Tathagata" (rather than only using a translation of it each time it occurs - not that you are necessarily suggesting that!). Such terms as "Tathagata" are pretty central to Buddhism, so I think people can fairly be expected to know and learn them (as long as those expressions are initially translated and explained). Lastly, on the "all dhammas are anatta" point, I'll try to mention (in the "Nirvana Sutra" entry) this famous statement of the Buddha's and the modification of meaning it undergoes in the "Nirvana Sutra". Thank you very much, Munge, for all your ideas. Stimulating! - Tony Page (TonyMPNS 21:38, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC))

Wow, well, too many excellent points to address here but I'll try.

• Nirvana and Buddha empty of the selfless, confirmed: I changed the sentence by a tiny amount to reflect what you say and eliminate what I saw as room for doubt.

• Perhaps I am being obsessive, but is it really OK to say the sutras have a "view of Emptiness"? View is a loaded word in Buddhism and maybe it's an "attitude toward emptiness"? Or some term other than view that the Sutra itself uses? Or does the Sutra indeed use the Chinese or Tibetan equivalent for ditthi?

• What is the Tibetan word referred to in the quote near the end? Is it clearly the word for Tathagatagarbha? If so, mentioning Buddha Principle and Buddhic Essence and Buddha Nature seems more detail than warranted in an article about empiness. If the Tibetan word is not simply the equivalent of Tathagatagarbha, some hedging might be called for, e.g. "(a term closely associated wtih Tathagatagarbha)". The issue with "Buddha Principle" and "Buddhic Essence" is that these terms seem not clearly defined anywhere in Wikipedia and readers can't easily clarify them. If they must stay, I propose a phrase like "Buddha Principle or Buddhic Essence (the nonempty attributes of Tathagatagarbha)"?

• As for Tathagatagarbha, embryo, and womb: Excellent point you make. The literal interpretation I gave above is grossly misleading. The intelligent reader would mistakenly think of embryonic development and, worse, womb-like quiescence. OK, I'm struggling with this. For this article, how about something like "Tathagatagarbha (womb of the thus-come one, construed as a metaphor for nonemptiness, not as a metaphor for development or quiescence)". For the Tathagatagarbha article, the metaphor includes many aspects: Container/contained as in storehouse and the seeds therein; unborn as in eternal; nonempty. (Is there more to the metaphor?)

• As for Buddha Nature, my understanding that the Chinese found so many different interpretations of Buddha Nature in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra that they catalogued them (on this matter, Sallie King cites a dissertation by Grosnick). If so, perhaps one cannot simply say that accoding to Mahaparinirvana, Tathagatagarbha = Buddha Nature. Notably, the Yogacara-Tathagatagarbha literature (see next bullet) does not use Buddha Nature interchangeably with Tathagatagarbha.

• The biggest issue with "Buddha Nature", I'm finding, is the same issue I have with "Tathagatagarbha" and "Anatta" for that matter. Namely, each of those articles needs improvement. To telegraph some issues about those, the Tathagatagarbha article regrettably conflates the Tathagatagarbha literature with the (slightly later) Yogacara-Tathagatagarbha tradition e.g. Buddha Nature Treatise, Lankavatara Sutra, and Mahayana Awakening of Faith. And I'm concerned Buddha Nature and anatta articles completely neglect to cover the Buddha Nature Treatise, which has much to say about resolving the controversies that have emerged on Wikipedia about Buddha Nature. To be fair, Buddha Nature and anatta articles attempt to address what is and isn't anatman in various traditions. Still, like the layers of the Mahaparanirvana itself, these articles betray that that various Wikipedians brought different attitudes toward the subject. All these articles should start from the standpoint that there are varying doctrines within Mahayana, and different attitudes expressed within the Pali Canon, and present the different sides.

• Thank you for taking the time to engage on this. Nothing urgent here or in the other things I've mentioned. However, I left an unrelated question about Mahaparinirvana Sutra on your talk page.

--Munge 05:17, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hallo Munge: it is a pleasure to read all your splendid comments. Thank you very much for them. Just a few brief initial comments of my own (work beckons!): I agree with virtually everything you say. I think you are right that I should perhaps not unjustifiably render "Tathagatagarbha" as "Buddhic Essence" (when the Tibetan text clearly does refer to Tathagagat-garbha and does not use "Buddhic Essence") without some sort of explanation of why I do that (the same with my "Buddha-Principle" for "Buddha-dhatu"). Also, I do agree with you that the linking of Tathagatagarbha doctrine with Yogacara is potentially confusing (I did not write that part of the relevant article). I also agree with you that there should be something on the "Uttara Tantra" in Wikipedia (I have not included it in my section on TG sutras as it is not a sutra!). I'm interested in your point that there are different classifications and distinctions made by the Chinese of Buddha-dhatu/ Tathagata-garbha in the "Nirvana Sutra". I should really try to get hold of Grosnick's work. I only know his fine introduction to his translation of the "Tathagatagarbha Sutra". It may be that I have missed subtle distinictions between the two terms in the MPNS, so I need to pay more attention to this henceforth. On the other hand, I have just checked through some key passages in the Tibetan Nirvana Sutra and it seems that the "garbha" and "dhatu" are pretty much equated (at least in this text). There are a number of examples I could cite, but here is just one (the Buddha is speaking here):

"The tathāgata-dhātu is the intrinsic nature (svabhāva, prakṛti) of beings. Therefore, it cannot be killed by having its life severed. If it could be killed, then the life-force (jīvaka) could be annihilated (atyanta-abhāvī-kṛta), but it is not possible for the life-force to be annihilated. In this instance, the life-force refers to the tathāgata-garbha. That [tathāgata]-dhātu cannot be destroyed, killed or annihilated but also it cannot be seen very clearly as long as buddhahood has not been attained."

I think you are probably right when you speak of later texts drawing a distinction between the two terms, but in the "Nirvana Sutra" I really cannot see a big difference between them - try as I might. But I could be wrong on this, of course! My honest impression, though, after engaging with the "Nirvana Sutra" for years, is that the MPNS (in its various versions) sees no conflict in meaning between the "tathagatagarbha" and the "Buddha-dhatu" - they are essentially the same Awakened Reality which has the power to awaken the being into Buddhahood. But I really should try to get hold of Grosnick's dissertation. Thanks for letting me know about it.

On your point about not speaking of a "view of Emptiness": yes, I can fully understand your uneasiness here, as "view" is usually negative in Buddhism (although not always, as the first step on the Noble Eightfold Path is precisely - "right view/seeing"). So I don't mind at all if you change that bit to something like "understanding of/insight into Emptiness".

Oh! On the point (posted on my Talkpage) about "tongues festering" in those who preach the Hinayana sutras: I did actually e-mail you at the time on that, but I fear my e-mail did not reach you. To answer your query here: no, the "Nirvana Sutra" definitely does not say that. I checked all the main versions, and it is not there. I don't know where that idea in Nichiren came from!

Sorry this is a bit brief, Munge. Duty calls me away! But before I do vanish I want to thank you for your very well-argued points. It was so refreshing to read your helpful ideas and suggestions. I'll try to incorporate some of them into the entry when I've got a bit more time. Thanks again for all your help. All the very best to you. - Tony (TonyMPNS 09:04, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC))

I don't know the MPNS at all except 2nd hand and as you see, from sources some of which are highly questionable (which was why I questioned it!) However it would not surprise me if the MPNS does not draw such a fine distinction as the later BNT, which I have been studying. In part, I understand the BNT came about because controversial issues emerged, including as a result of perceived unresolved questions raised by the MPNS (though maybe the Ratnagotra started to address them). E.g. somebody (Paramartha?) wanted to reconcile what were seen as unexplained points--how to parse atman when used in a Buddhist context governed by anatman, without devolving into drivel, nor identifying with monism, nor playing one-upsmanship with the upaya card. A ripping yarn that I won't go into here but must be told on the Buddha Nature and anatta pages at some point. BNT also responds to an issue that I think was raised by readers of the MPNS and the critics of Tao Sheng, namely why practice if nirvana is samsara and the incorrigible are already enlightened? (An issue near and dear to Dogen, who is the central topic of Grosnick's dissertation.) The reason being, according to BNT, is not because practice is prior to transformation but because practice is transformation. (Which actually leads to more unresolved issues; did Dogen later change his mind about just that identity? Perhaps there will be a Critical Buddhism page in my lifetime.) What does that have to do with the issue you mention? In the BNT, tathagatagarbha is identified with alayavijnana, and these comprise one of several aspects of Buddha nature, (just as one might say that ability to apprehend thusness is an attribute of the awakened person). Just to put it in context, another aspect of Buddha Nature in the BNT is the asrayaparavrrtti (loosely, personal transformation), which the BNT identifies as practice (yoga). Well, I've drifted, and sorry if some of the above is naive misunderstanding of the MPNS. Will be preoccupied for the next week or so, so once again, this has been very stimulating, and let's do it again soon. And thanks for the confirmation on no "festering tongues"; hard to prove a negative but I figure if any English-speaker on earth could give it the fine tooth comb, that'd be you. --Munge 04:04, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for your kind words, Munge. I have found your comments on the Uttara Tantra etc. interesting and useful. Best wishes - Tony (TonyMPNS 10:39, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC))

Hi, maybe someone could check the Japanese links, the entry linked seems to be more about the sky then about emptiness ? Maybe the right link is http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A9%BA_%28%E4%BB%8F%E6%95%99%29. That being said, in that link someone maybe could check the English meaning, or is "sunya" there correct as well ? Also a link there could be fine. I would prefer leaving all that to people with good Japanese and wikipedia technical knowledge. Best wishes --219.110.235.228 09:17, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Void Versus Dao?

What is the difference between the "void" in Buddhism and the "Dao" described by Lao Zi? Le Anh-Huy 09:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Very, very different. No use trying to compare the two. rudy 22:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style

To me, this reads like a religious pamphlet. Citation requests will be added accordingly. Patrick Schwemmer 07:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree patrick, I am trying to make some improvements, but I'm not good at finding the exact sources.. rudy 14:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It needs initial context. "xxx is the spiritual concept of yyy, most examined in zzz" might be a start. I started reading and was prepared to drop it, shrug and carry on home.

[edit] Mind or consciousness

Re the statement that "in the Cittamatra school it is said that the mind itself ultimately exists", would it be more accurate to say that "...consciousness ultimately exists"? It seems a matter of experience that consciousness (awareness of awareness, as distinct from awareness itself or other objects of consciousness) is ultimately real and empty; but I'm not sure if this is what the Cittamatra school teaches. DavidCooke 02:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Embodiment

Is this fantasy only or are those imaginations rooted in buddhist scriptures or oral believes?

• THIRTY TWO MARKS OF A GREAT MAN

Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.158 (talk) 14:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Meaning of Sunyata in Nagarjuna's Philosophy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.236.111.35 (talk) 14:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)