Talk:Ēostre

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[edit] Translation request

Could we get a translation of the Aelfric? And a pronunciation guide? I don't know many people who would recognize all of those charecters, much less know how to pronounce them. I don't think I know anyone who would be able to understand what Aelfric has written.Finnbjorn (talk) 20:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brilliance

Brilliant! --Yak 13:45, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reference request

Can someone please tell us who said the following: "it is reasonably certain that the New Testament contains no reference to a yearly celebration of the resurrection of Christ." It is very confusing to see quotation marks but not know who is being quoted. ThePedanticPrick 01:05, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistic issues

The article currently says:

"The most determined proponents of an Ishtar/Easter connection are not neopagans but certain fundamentalist Christians, notably Ralph Woodrow, whose Babylonian Mystery Religion includes the Easter/Ishtar fallacy and condemns the celebration's trappings as unchristian."

This is an assertion without linguistic backing.

The Egyptian name for Isis is "Ast" or "Aset". The connection between this and "Astarte" was known to, and written of, by the Egyptian Christians contemporary while the religions of Ast and Astarte were both thriving. The Romanization of Ast is pronounced "ē sēs". The Babylonian counterpart of Astarte was Ishtar, "ēsh tar". I believe you can find primary source material documents that show that the worshippers of these respective entities did equate them, that this is neither a Roman Imperial gloss nor a Ralph Woodrow fabrication.

I happen to agree that there are many fallacious arguments for one single unbroken continuity of goddess worship, and that such did not exist, certainly not to prehistoric times- but this particular expanse of continuity is legit.

"though as Eostre's characteristics as a goddess have never been recorded, this is entirely speculative."

This is inaccurate as well. There are commonalities of worship in isolated yet disparate regions of Europe and Asia Minor, places that are known to have preserved more ancient linguistic patterns. It is probable that their folk traditions also contain vestiges. If scrutinized cladistically, these customs appear to be remnants of a larger continuity that travels from the estuary of the Danube to England. There is a preponderance of similarities, making common ancestry a legitimate inference.

Coloring eggs and adorning the clothing of marriageable girls with images of rabbits are but two of them. To say the connections have "never been recorded" is inaccurate. At best, we can say we have no written records. Archaeological and anthropological data says otherwise.

--Talzhemir


The issue is not one of a continuity between Isis and Astarte, but of a continuity between either of these deities and Easter. Speculative linguistic connections are not the same as demonstrable continuity.

Eostre's characteristics have not been recorded. To quote Professor Ron Hutton:

'Our sole authority for Eostre is Bede, who says that she was the Anglo-Saxon goddess after whom the month of April is named. He did not associate her with hares, and modern scholarship finds her name cognate with many Indo-European words for dawn, which presents a high possibility that she was a dawn-goddess, and so April as the Eostre-month was the month of opening and new beginning, which makes sense in a North German climate.'

[i]Coloring eggs and adorning the clothing of marriageable girls with images of rabbits are but two of them. To say the connections have "never been recorded" is inaccurate.[/i]

We do not know whether Eostre even *existed*. The elements you refer to above may or may not be remnants of an Eostre tradition. To say that they *are* records of such presumes the definite existence of that Goddess, which we cannot do.Cavalorn 12:28, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't understand how Grimm's Law would preclude a link between an Etruscan mention of Astarte and Eostre amongst Germans. The Runic alphabet is a development of the Etruscan alphabet. If Astarte is actually mentioned by Etruscans it wouldn't be ridiculous for that word to be current in Central Europe. Grimm's Law describes how for example an 'st' doesn't change in German. Grimm's Law describes how Indo-European words develop on the German branch - does this mean German is incapable of any borrowings at all? Presentation that Eostre is linked to Eos/Hausos is a alternative to Astarte, and therefore they can't both be true would be better. Stevebritgimp 21:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Some of these issues have been discussed at Talk:Ishtar. AnonMoos (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eos

I'm new, so forgive me if I'm doing this wrong, but why is there no mention of Eos, the goddess of the dawn in Greek mythology, here in Eostre's entry? It would certainly seem there are similarities. VanessaR

[edit] Pronunciation

Hi, could we get some IPA for the name, or some guide to pronunciation? - FrancisTyers 17:37, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The words all come from long dead languages, so we would have to apply some guesswork, check out Old English phonology for start. I would guess that the e in e:ostre and o in o:stara was long, and that the words otherwise were pronounced similarly how to they were spelled, unlike modern English words =P. Note that I am in no way a professional scholar of the subject, and that someone with some more knowledge about it is free to fill in. 惑乱 分からん 22:54, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The theory proposed by Oppenheimer that those in the Southeast of England were Germanic (not Celtic), combined with the orthodoxy of a Germanic nature to Eostre's name and practices, would suggest that this is where one should look for the pronounciation. Assuming the spelling is 'estre' - some letter pairings change the sound - then it might be something like "eh zz t r eh" (the 'z' being emphasized as it is the first consonant), using the soundings believed used for Old English as probably pretty close. I don't see anything about silent consonants (except where S or F are used at the start or end of words) and I don't see anything about 'st' or 'tr' being one of the grouped consonants that should be treated differently.

[edit] Merging with Ostara

I don't see why this would be merged at all with the Ostara entry, as has been suggested. This entry is about the goddess Eostre, while the Ostara entry is mainly about the holiday. They are clearly two different subjects, and the connections are extremely varied for each individual's interpretation. Not all celebrants of the Ostara holiday involve Eostre, and not all discussions of Eostre involve the Ostara holiday. Rob T Firefly 20:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the point above. There is a very clear distinction between the two. Merging them would likely be entirely confusing. - Dootsie

I don't know if just us two count as a consensus of NO MERGE, but after several months of no further activity I'm taking the liberty of removing the merge tags. Rob T Firefly 03:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More from Bede

I have verified the supposed quote from Bede, De ratione temporum, and added the other bits which refer to Eosturmonath from the same chapter (after all, this is the one and only source in the historical record for it all). I've also added the reference to Faith Wallis' translation of the work. I hope that's OK with everyone. Roger Pearse 13:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biasometer Pegged

See, this is the problem with an on-line encyclopedia, especially if the editors seem to have a bent one way or the other: The information gets skewed. If all our information is based on the opinion of the majority rather than upon the facts of what is or what was to the best extent possible -- which includes all points of view! -- then we are in deep weeds in the future. This is how people become misinformed and herded to gather behind tyrants, be they political or intellectual.

Upon reading this article, it has an EXTREMELY Christian/non-pagan bent to it: Any references outside of Christianity seem to be scoffed at here. Prudence would suggest that a lot more research be done on this before so offhandedly dismissing this as an exclusively Christian holiday. Not that it would be right to deny Christians a holiday, but considering they absconded with all the Pagan ones, it would behoove them to actually come up with their own.

The estrogen/eostre link is immediately debunked, but since the languages, as admitted, are "long dead", rather than admit to the possibility of a link between the two, the other approach is taken; i.e. "no proof of the link is there so we won't even look at the possibility." This is an absurd way to disseminate information. There really is no proof that there is no connection between Eostre/Ishtar or Eostre/Estrogen, because we can't find it. The conclusions which have been "authoritatively" drawn have been drawn by those who have a decidedly monotheistic patriarchal point of view.

The thing that definitely points out the bias is the bibliography at the bottom of Eostre's page -- they are Biblical references, which indicates that no other points of view (or, in fact, ANY factual evidence) have been presented. Wraukon 21:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

So find some references, and be bold! Instead of just fussing about how the editors are biased, actually be an unbiased editor, and fix it.  :) -Aleta 02:51, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Like Aleta said, if it's broke, fix it. Don't just whine at the world.Dogface 14:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I have to agree with Wraukon on the point regarding the Christianocentric bias in this article. Although unsurprising considering one of the two references was a Bible Encyclopedia, let's admit it, Christians don't have a sterling history on respecting other religions and I'm sorry to say, this article smacks with similar disdain.Mermaidlost 02:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)mermaidlost
So quit just whining about it and actually do something. If your knowledge of the matter is superior, share that knowledge and edit the article. Don't just sit on your butt and whine about how the article doesn't meet your standards. Bring the article up to your standards. Otherwise, you're just empty. Dogface 16:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False cognate moved here

"the only comparable material of Germanic mythology is found in terms for "East" (Icelandic Austri) and in the Germanic name of Easter. There is no connection between ost etc. ("east") and Eostre. The German cognate already appears in the opening paragraph. --Wetman (talk) 23:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

why are you saying this? To the best of my knowledge, east is directly cognate to the Aurora etymon (which, I submit, is hardly surprising semantically). Grimm (s.v. Ost) has:

der zu grunde liegende stamm austa von einer wurzel aus, sanskr. vas (aufleuchten, tagen) hängt zusammen mit sanskr. usha morgenröte, griech. εως, ηως, lat. aurora (für ausosa), lit. auszra, altslav. utro (für ustro)

--dab (𒁳) 17:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

To Wetman, I think my reference regarding the etymology is very solid. If you can find a reference that says otherwise, you are welcome to add it as well. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this etymology is well sourced. Why was I so rash? To make amends, I'll insert the following at the appropriate point: Joseph Bosworth and T. Northcote Toller, An Anglo-Saxon Dictionary, "Eástre, the goddess of the rising sun, whose festivities were in April. Hence used by Teutonic christians for the rising of the sun of righteousness, the feast of the resurrection," noting Bede, Grimm 1855 (on-line text) --Wetman (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eostre/oestrus

The following was rightly deleted (WP:OR) but might not be without interest:

A revised etymology of Eostre might be in order, since so much speculation has been erected on Bede's single remark.

The Latin meaning of oestrus comes directly from Greek oistros, originally referring to a "gadfly"— specifically the gadfly that Hera sent to torment Io, who had been wooed and won in her heifer form by Zeus. Homer uses the word to describe the panic of the suitors in Odyssey book 22. The modern technical Latin meaning of estrus became more prominent after it was revived in 1890 to describe the female equivalent of "rut": hence "estrogen", the "hormone that generates oestrus".

Oestrus/oistros also meant "frenzy". Euripides uses it both to describe the madness of Orestes, and of Heracles. In x (line 1144), Heracles has murdered his own children and cries, 'Where did the madness seize me? where did it destroy me?'

More to the point, Herodotus (Histories ch.93.1) uses oistros to describe the desire of fish to spawn.

Oestrus is an irrational drive: Plato, Laws, 854b:

“My good man, the evil force that now moves you and prompts you to go temple-robbing is neither of human origin nor of divine, but it is some impulse bred of old in men from ancient wrongs unexpiated, which courses round wreaking ruin; and it you must guard against with all your strength."

In the Republic, Plato again uses the word, to describe the soul "driven and drawn by the gadfly of desire"

The earliest English language sense is of "frenzied passion."

It seems reasonably certain that 'Eostre' refers to the annual Romano-Briton spring celebrations during 'Eostermonat' as Bede reported. But Bede, writing in the late 8th century, may have extended the festival to apply a name to the goddes. The goddess's original pre-Roman name appears to have been lost, for the name of her springtime 'rising of the sap' festival was translated into Latin, in some form of Oestrus, before the Roman legions left in the 5th century, it would be reasonable to suppose. --Wetman (talk) 00:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

interesting, but, as you say, WP:SYN without some further reference. dab (𒁳) 07:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speculations

The recent spate of unsourced personal speculation, following other revisions down-playing the single fact, are copied here. Can anything encyclopedia-worthy be made of the following personal ruminations unconnected with Bede's Eostre? (Wetman (talk) 10:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC))

Whether the derivation is from a Goddess of "Spring", or of "Dawn", is to some degree a moot point, when the term is examined in its use in far northern climes, since there the two concepts are somewhat cognate - the return of Spring is indeed the return of dawn after a long hiatius; and the return of the sun each day after is merely a mini-version of the same event, the dismissal of darkness and resurrection of life and warmth. The extent to which this agreement occurs declines toward the equator, and is gone before reaching the tropics.
Celebration of Easter in modern cultures - and particularly in the Southern hemisphere where Easter is paradoxically celebrated in Autumn, not Spring, due to the cycle of seasons being out-of-phase compared with the Northern hemisphere - has become almost completely removed from any conscious knowledge of its meaning as ritual celebration of return of the sun, that event so important to agrarian society.