Talk:Đurađ II

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Contents

[edit] Red, Korcula???

Why is the link to Korcula red??? --PaxEquilibrium 21:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This one? Looks to be a difference in K's, rather than a lack of a page. -Bbik★ 22:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm...an...idiot.....--PaxEquilibrium 23:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Naw, just blame it on being tired, always a good excuse! Complain if you don't like the speedy tag I'm sticking on the new page. -Bbik★ 09:08, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Three issues

1) Konstantin Balsic: There is no mention of him before 1391 I reckon. He was the son of Djuradj I and his wife Theodora. After Djuradj's death in 1378 he inherited a small parchment of land between the rivers of Bojana and Drim. He married an Albanian princess (Helen, daughter of Karl Thopia). To expand links in the western Balkans he married his sister Eudocia to the Florentine Despot of Ioannina Isail del Buondelmonty Aciauoli. He then went to serve for the Ottomans; he was charged as the Ottoman governor of the lands once of Thomas Preljubović at the far south as an Ottoman vassal. He was sent to become the Balsics head as an Ottoman protege, but as you can see, he failed, losing Danj to Djuradj in 1395. He was very faithful to Sultan Bayezid I. On 17 May 1395 he fought in the Battle of Rovine and witnessed the deaths of all Serbian nobleman but him (including his uncle Konstantin Dragas, according to whom he was named, and "King" Marko Mrnjavcevic). In 1402 he was executed in Dyrrachion - for unknown reasons, but it is believed that his absence at the Battle of Angora maybe had something to do with this...

Correction - he is mentioned before, but not under any date. --PaxEquilibrium 12:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

2) Can we say that Djuradj personally killed Radic Crnojevic?
3) He didn't begin revolts in 1391 - because of the controversy of his alleged vassalage to the Ottomans.
4) How do we know his son was 17 years old? --PaxEquilibrium 23:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Pax, read the entry "Balšići" in Istorijski Leksikon Crne Gore Book 1: A-Crn. The "Balša III" section of the entry even states Balša III, son of Đurađ II, was 17 at the time when the rule of Zeta was passed onto him after his father died in 1403. If you don't have the book, you can look it up on Montenegrina here: http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages1/istorija/balsici/balsici_andrijasevic_rastoder.htm , but let me quote the book as it might be more convenient for you:
“ Balša III Balšić (1403-1421). Đurađa II Stracimirovića Balšića naslijedio je njegov sin Balša III, koji je u to vrijeme imao tek 17 godina. ”

—Istorijski Leksikon Crne Gore Book 1: A-Crn, Montenegrina.net
--Prevalis 03:33, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah yes thank you, I've read it before. I just have sometimes far too many books to actually view them all. :) I shall source it directly.
Can we find out who of the two wrote that part? It's crucial that we see was that Andrijasevic or Rastoder? --PaxEquilibrium 12:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
There are actually many authors of those books. It's impossible to find out who wrote that part because no author claims any entry whatsoever and the book is merely a compilation of biographies and information, so it could be that the "Balšići" entry was written by various authors and each contributed a bit of knowledge tot that section. --Prevalis 12:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Prevalis, do you perhaps know the source for the info about Kotor? I'd like to get a hold of it (because I only heard something about it, never read it really). --PaxEquilibrium 13:47, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, I can. I just read it in a forum, though it was a copy-paste from Novak Adžić's story of the Balšićs on Montenegrina. I just translated most of what was important. Here's the link to the article: http://montenegrina.net/pages/pages1/istorija/balsici/balsici_novak_adzic.htm and here's the quote that I used for the info on Kotor:
“ U takvim političkim okolnostima, kada je Zeta bila razjedinjena, vlast je preuzeo Đurađ II Balšić. Međutim, bez obzira na mnoge ozbiljne probleme sa kojima se morao suočiti i iznalaziti adekvatne modalitete da ih povoljnije riješi, Đurađ II je stalno razmišljao kako pronaći efikasniji modus vivendi da Kotor, davnašnji san svih njegovih prijethodnika na zetskom prijestolu, prisajediniti matičnoj zemlji Zeti. Kao ekonomski najrazvijeniji grad na Zetskom primorju Kotor je kontinuirano podgrijavao neprijateljstva između Đurađa II i bana Tvrtka I. Kada je početkom marta 1391. godine umro Tvrtko I, nastale su povoljnije mogućnosti za realizaciju plana Đurađa II o uključivanju Kotora u sastav Zete. I zaista, odmah iza Tvrtkove smrti Đurađ II je zagospodario Kotorom. ”

—Novak Adžić, Montenegrina.net
--Prevalis 14:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely brilliant. By the way, none of the books tell that Djuradj died of injuries. Have you heard something about this? --PaxEquilibrium 14:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I have, at MonteNet.org. It states a quotation from the book Istorija Crnogorskog Naroda by Dragoje Živković. Here's the link: http://montenet.org/history/balsics.htm and here's the quote:
“ In 1403, Djuradj II's 17-year old son, Balsa III, inherited the rule of Zeta as his father died in consequence of the injuries suffered in the battle of Gracanica. ”

—Istorija Crnogorskog Naroda by Dragoje Živković, Montenet.org
Now I see where CrnaGora got most of the info for the Principality of Zeta article. It's practically copy-paste of MonteNet.org pages about the Nemanjićs, Balšićs and the Crnojevićs --Prevalis 14:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Just one more question: We need to find out that Skopje Sanjak-Bey that negotiated with him. Since the Ottomans took Skopje from Vuk Brankovic precisely then, we should be able to get a hold of his name (it's definitely recorded - he's the first!). --PaxEquilibrium 15:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I guess this might help our search:
“ Zemlje Vuka Brankovića koje su bile u susjedstvu Zete, potpale su početkom 1392. godine, pod vlast Pašaita, namjesnika sultana Bajazita I sa sjedištem u Skoplju. ”

—Novak Adžić, Montenegrina.net
I'll continue to search though. --Prevalis 15:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation of "Đurađ"?

It would be useful if English-speakers could be given a clue regarding the pronunciation of "Đurađ". Durad? Durath? Djuradj? Thurath? or something entirely different? -- The Anome 12:21, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Update: further Googling suggests that it might be "Djuradj" -- which is apparently a form of "George". Can anyone more knowledgeable confirm if this is the case? -- The Anome 12:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Đurađ is indeed a form of George, and it is pronounced as Djuradj. --Prevalis 12:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 22:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dinar

I can't find a place to include Djuradj II's dinars into the context, the current position in the beginning is bad. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template

It would be nice if we had some sort of a template for all members of the Balsic family, as with many Wikipedia's articles. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:23, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

  • put an image (icon, fictive depiction,...)
  • put a pic of his Coin (the Dinar)
  • put a pic of Ulcinj
  • put a map of Djuradj's demesne
  • maybe a coat of arms?
  • find and reference the epic poems/tellings/reconstructions connoting Djuradj to the Battle of Kosovo
  • find the original Old Serb-Slavonic writing of Djuradj's name
  • supplement IPA

[edit] Drivast

What is its Albanian name? Is it possible that there's no article about it? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The Albanian name of Drivast is in fact Drivast. The town itself is several kilometres northwest of Skadar. --Prevalis (talk) 21:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
And no article? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
The reason for this is that it is not as notable as it once was, and is today, a mere village/minor town. --Prevalis (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Historical notability is important. We have articles on villages that were always villages: Pločnik. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Good point. --Prevalis (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More questions

How does everyone feel about the size of the sections, are more smaller ones needed?

Should the Battle of Amsfeld controversy moved to Miscellaneous perhaps? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you are over obsessing with the article. Don't worry. It looks as if it's perfectly fine at the moment. --Prevalis (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
If I didn't know you any better, I'd take that as an insult. I shall soon ask a Peer review of this article - my desire is to make this article a Good Article and perhaps some day in the future even a Featured Article. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IPA

Đurađ would I suppose be /ʥu'raʥ/, although IANANS obviously. - Francis Tyers · 20:19, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian Family of Balsha

In the entry of Karlo Thopia, under the title : Balsha Family Rivalry it says : "Balša II needed a four attempt to conquer Dürres, an important commercial and strategetic center, which was ruled by rival, Karl Thopia. In 1382, Balsha II began a war and seized Durrës. In 1385, the defeated Karl Thopia, appealed to Murad I for support against his rivals, the Balšić family of Zeta. This is like inviting the Ottoman Empire into Albania in order to help him defeat his Albanian rivals of the Balsha family. This was a grave mistake in trying to change Albania's history dramatically." I am under the impression here that the Balsha family was not Serb, as it is mentioned in this entry, so it must be changed. thanks --Mavronjoti (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

There are weak theories about their Western French/Provencal/Italian/Gothic origins. The most common belief is that they were slavicized Vlachs. They are not of Albanian origin. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
But Pax, there is no proof that they were not of Albanian origin. Yes, it may be a weak theory, but it is still a common theory still taken into regards by some historians. --Prevalis (talk) 01:01, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be interested to find out which (whether Albanian or other) those historians are and where they claim that (all I've seen so far are online forums & discussions). It would be very nice to include it over into the House of Balsic article, if sourced. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)