Talk:České Budějovice

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The Czech transliteration is appearing in my browser as question marks. -- Zoe

It is question marks; it doesn't appear to have gotten put in correctly. I've put in what I think are the right characters, somebody please confirm. --Brion 20:59 Nov 20, 2002 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. I had cut and pasted from a Czech site, but the non ascii characters seem to have gone in as "?"s. I looked for the proper characters without luck before I had to go do non-Wikipedia stuff. Thanks for taking care of that, Brion. -- Infrogmation (P.S.: could someone please place a link to the proper "& numbers" for Eastern European characters at Wikipedia:Special characters?)

Thanks, Brion, it looks fine now. -- Zoe

-- Hmmm . . . The title says Ceské Budejovice, it should be with a hacek over the C in Ceske, and over the e in the first e in Budejovice. How come the accent over the e in Ceske can go in but not the haceks? Dvsuk17 20:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is due to problems of browsers. Pavel Vozenilek 00:37, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I have to disagree here with Pavel - Wikipedia has simply not utilized the capabilities of modern browser fully. It relied on the Latin-1 encoding instead of a broader Unicode encoding. This has recently been corrected.
Jbetak 29 June 2005 19:56 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] English and German name alternative

I would like to start a discussion about the German name of České Budějovice. I would argue that Budweis along with Prague, Pilsen, Carlsbad and about a dozen of other Czech towns has significant name recognition. Historical names that took their origin either in German or in Latin should be properly credited where appropriate. I have notified the last editor that I disagree with his changes. Since I have not heard back, I went ahead with my own edits.

What are your thoughts on this? Was there a discussion on this topic on the past? Jbetak 29 June 2005 20:02 (UTC)


Here are a few links that document current use of Budweis as English name alternative for České Budějovice, similar in its use to Prague and Pilsen:

Jewish Encyclopedia The Czech Budweis Cup

The local JiHo cesky Krajský Fotbalový SVAZ says verbatim:

“The Czech Budweis Cup has everything going for it: The beautiful surroundings of Bohemia and picturesque Ceske Budejovice, also known as Budweis.” Jbetak 30 June 2005 18:37 (UTC)

Probably a bit late on the discussion, but Ceske Budejovice (with the accents) is the proper name. Even English maps call it that. Barneygumble 18:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply! And České Budějovice is currently used -- the question is how to properly include the German name Budweis into the article. Most other towns with similar history simply list their foreign names in parenthesis, e.g. Praha (German: Prague) without adding further explanation or potential POV. The problem is that we have a single editor who insists on saying old German name: Budweis or formerly known as Budweis. I have brought forward examples of international and local use of Budweis and believe that for the sake of consistency with other articles and to accurately reflect its use, we should simply say České Budějovice (German: Budweis) in the article. Jbetak 18:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Jbetak's reasoning. I have edited numerous city articles using that standard. Olessi 03:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Budweis or Budweiss is a name used by clergy and churchmans for centuries in Southern Bohemia, because Bohemia was a part of Holy Roman Empire the names has to be in check with the Vatican (at least for latin usage by monks). English Wikipedia should prefer Latin names to local names (especially names deeply rooted in history and well documented). Prague is a fine example here, same rule should be used for all other significant places like Pilsen, Rosenberg, Carlsbad, Crumlaw etc. --IEEE 23:27, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Full disclosure: I am an American who lived in Budejovice for five years. I never heard any native English speaker refer to the city as Budweis, except to make such statements as "Germans call it Budweis." My American friends and I always referred to it as Ceske Budejovice, or simply, Budejovice, or most informally, CB. Further, the English articles cited above seem to be written by non-native English speakers (Czech or otherwise). If the term Budweis is mentioned at all in an English language article, it seems to me that it should only be to acquaint the reader with German language ways to refer to the city. user dbsmelser, Aug. 14, 2007


I have only note for correct town name in German - till 1920 official name of town was Budějovice in Czech, and Budweis in German, but when town was renamed to České Budějovice, German name was changed adequately and since 1921 correct name of the town in Germanof is Böhmisch Budweis, not simply Budweis. In German, Budweis may be used as town name only in informal way. --Pooh-winnie 12:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Germans is not using Böhmisch Budweis, but Budweis. Town concil of České Budějovice on germany-wersion of his website is using České Budějovice or Budweis... F. example here. --213.29.96.164 23:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I am not my brother's keeper, nor teacher of proper german language designation to town-counsellors of České Budějovice. Correct name is Böhmisch Budweis, which is enacted by governmental directive, referenced in the article etc.--Pooh-winnie 10:34, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Correct name is Budweis or Böhmisch Budweis. Governmental directive can enact the correct name only in czech fully official document. May be. --77.48.45.227 09:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Correct name is Böhmisch Budweis, dear unregistered user, German and Czech name were on equal levels - Budějovice/Budweis was on territory of Czechoslovak republic, Germans and Czechs were fully equal in the Czecholovak republic, and Czechoslovak government had the same name to change the Czech as the German name (the Czech name of České Budějovice was changed from simply Budějovice by the same directive as German, BTW). Ooops, sorry.--Pooh-winnie 16:51, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Correct name is Budweis or Böhmisch Budweis. And name, that is using on official site of city can not be unoficial! --213.29.96.164 22:14, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, 213.29.96.164, it can. You don't see what central European bureaucracy means, but in fact, information on web pages is almost always unofficial only, the thing of importance is the name which was legally enacted, although, sometimes it may differ from commonly used form. I have fixed it in the article.--Pooh-winnie 15:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
BTW I suppose, you're not English speaking well? What does mean the phrase "Is using"? I always supposed, that correct form should be "is used"....
What appalling manners, Pooh-winnie! It makes me ashamed to be an English speaker. 83.70.241.97 (user name withheld) 16:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repeatedly wrong name reference

As for notice for one (or may be several) unregistered users repeteadly changing name of town in German to Budweis first, Böhmisch Budweis on second place, the reference ([1]) originally inserted by 213.29.96.164 says verbatim, that "Budweis was by German speaking people more commonly used than official Böhmisch Budweis" not that the German name of České Budějovice is Budweis. Therefore I'd like to ask unregisterd user(s) from IPs 213.29.96.164, 77.48.45.227 and 195.144.125.173 not to use this reference to support false statement that German name of České Budějovice is Budweis or Böhmisch Budweis - I think the version with explanation that Budweis is usual German short form, analogous to Czech short form Budějovice is quite sufficient. --Pooh-winnie 16:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Czech republic had no official german name for czech cities from 1947, look here. Böhmisch Budweis can not be official for this. And German and web of city use name Budweis. I think, it is easy. --195.144.125.173 15:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Please do not tell untruth - your reference literally says that use all the minoritties-language (incl. German) names of Czech and Moravian towns is cancelled, and in case of Budějovice, name Budějovice reintroduced by Nazis is changed back to České Budějovice. Not a word about name of Budějovice in German language, except for the general cancellation of German names of Czech towns. --Pooh-winnie 16:04, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all the minoritties-language (incl. German) names of Czech and Moravian towns is cancelled = Böhmisch Budweis is not official name. --Cinik (talk) 20:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC) Do not lie here, please. Literally - the regulation no. 123/1947 Sb. revokes all the name changes made during German occupation, and then the use of minority names is cancelled. BTW - in English correct form should be "names ARE cancelled" not "names is cancelled" as you wrote. --Pooh-winnie (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

No, canceles all minority names. --Cinik (talk) 20:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The text of the regulation can be found here; it states (in that order) that the following changes to official names were made: a) for places that had prior to 1938 an alternate name in a minority language, the minority name is abolished; b) the remaining places have their names restored to the form valid in 1938, with the exception of Německý Brod, which is renamed to Havlíčkův Brod; c) as a result, all names created during the occupation ceased to exist, including all German names, Baťov (for Otrokovice), Bílý Kámen (for Hlávkov), and Budějovice (for České Budějovice); d) multiple more name changes are listed, mainly renaming of towns/villages with German names. (I can translate the Czech text into English, but I don't think it is necessary.)

The point Cinik is trying to make is that no Czech town has an official German name. "Böhmisch Budweis" is a translation of the Czech name "České Budějovice"; apparently, it is used less often than simply "Budweis". (I have found about 1000 off-Wikipedia Google hits for "Böhmisch Budweis" and many more for "Budweis". Some of the hits for the latter refer to the beer, even though I have attempted to exclude them.)

Now that this confusion has been rectified, I would like to know answers to these two questions: 1) Which one is the historic German name of the city? "Budweis" or "Böhmisch Budweis"? 2) Did the city have an official German name during the First Republic? If so, which one it was?

For the record, the official page of the city says, even in the German version, "der statutaren Stadt České Budejovice" [2]. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 00:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Official page of the city in German version says "České Budejovice" or "Budweis", no "Böhmisch Budweis". Ad 1) 1918-1920 Budweis, 1920-1939 B. Budweis (but Germans did not use it). 2) Historic name are both (B. i B. B.), Budweis is older and was oficial name longer Time. Today German use very more often Budweis. [Wortschatz http://wortschatz.uni-leipzig.de/] don´t know B. Budweis. --Cinik (talk) 07:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks; this information should probably be included somehow in the article (with appropriate references). - Mike Rosoft (talk) 11:59, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Re - Cinik intentionally says untruth - last official document setting name of České Budějovice in German fixes the form "Böhmisch Budweis", the post WWII regulation drops use of any name in German, and fixes use of České Budějovice in Czech - Germans during occuation returned to Budweis/Budějovice only, but this is not legally binding any more. I asked Cinik several times to prove his statements and refer them correctly in the article, he resorted to pure and unlimited falsehood. Opinions of German officials on town names of Czechia are not obligatory since 1945. --Pooh-winnie (talk) 19:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
      • It is not the business of Wikipedia to decide which is the "correct" German name. Let me sum up what we can all agree on:

        Today (and since 1946) the city České Budějovice has no official German name. Both "Budweis" and "Böhmisch Budweis" were official German names at some time; however, "Budweis" was used more often by Gemans, even when the latter was the official name, and is used more often today. During the occupation the Czech name was "Budějovice"; this, together with the German names, was abolished after the war. "Budějice" is a very colloquial form, which never had any official standing.

        I believe that when listing alternate names, the article should mention "Budweis" first (as the more common form) and then "Böhmisch Budweis"; if it is necessary to mention "Budějice" at all, it MUST be marked as colloquial. And as I have said, the information about the various names of the city should be included in the article. - Mike Rosoft (talk) 23:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar and syntax

I don't mean to be an interloper, and if I knew what the writer meant to say I would simply correct the English, but what is the sense of the following: "City subserves this funktion very good and it was cause for hostility persisting for centuries, only Hussite Wars brake it pro tem."

There are numerous other curious examples of fractured "International English" and worse.

Andygx 09:32, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point and find, I am removing that faul line just now. It has been deliberately inserted into the text no doubt. If author is here reading this, then explain why have you inserted it and what have you meant by that remark, until then I am removing it.--IEEE 18:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German population

  • "Until the mass expulsion of 1945 resulting from World War II, the city had a significant German minority (about 15.5 % in 1930)."

What was the German population after 1945? What is it today? 83.70.241.97 (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)