Talk:Ötzi the Iceman/2006-2007

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Contents

Discovery

To determine the real founder of Ötzi, either it was Magdalena Mohar Jarc as she was presented on our local news or Helmut Simon, which now is deceased and his wife applies for a fee. Magdalena Mohar Jarc entered the trial, when she noticed that Simon's wife requires the fee, and that they haven't mentioned her as a founder of the corpse. She will also be presented on the trial, together with Reinhold Messner as a witness about her discovery. Prunk 10:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

References:

Weather

The speculation that Ötzi was killed by a storm has been removed. I am not sure whether there was a good reason to do this, or if it was due to vandalism. I am reverting, until some evidence is presented. patrickw 11:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Name

Ötzi seems like a perfectly natural nickname based on "Ötztal". I found no evidence from the internet that the nickname was coined with reference to "yeti". So I am removing that assertion from the first paragraph. Phoogenb 20:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Tattoos

Can someone give some more details about the nature of the 57 (?) tattoos on this body? Are there really 57? It would be nice to have a reference to this. patrickw 16:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

here is one link i found: http://www.tattoo.dk/engelske/tattoo-history/ancient/e-iceman.htm patrickw 13:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Konrad Spindler became famous for first examining the 5,300 year old mummy in Austria. He said: "We know of 57 tattoos on the body of the Iceman. And we know from primitive peoples that tattoos are not just used as adornment or insignia, but also for therapy. ...", in: [1] --Dietmar 21:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
This strikes me as idle speculation. What is the evidence that Ötzi had tattoos for this reason? Lot's of tribal groups have tattoos for non theraputic reasons. It's indicating all the possible reasons he might have had tattoos. Perhaps each line and dot represented a kill or number of goats he had or were simply there for adornment. patrickw 11:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
The evidence that Ötzi had tattoos for this reason: innumerable sources. The tattoos could well be blueprints for acupuncture procedures. See also: [2], [3], [4], [5] and [6] --Dietmar 19:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone done a similar analysis of tattoos from tribal cultures who place tattoos for non-acuputure reasons (e.g., Maoris?). I suspect some of the places these tattoos coincidentally coincide with acupuncture points as well. In anycase there are lots of other reasons that these tattoos could be there. patrickw 13:12, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

DNA condition

What is the state of the man's DNA? Can his DNA be compared to modern humans to gauge genetic drift over 5000 years? Can his mitochondria be compared to modern humans to test the Mitochondrial Eve conclusions? Could Ötzi be cloned? --WpZurp 15:05, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems very improbable to me that the DNA could be in good enough condition for cloning, but it might be good enough for mitochondrial testing ... that would be an interesting test. Nik42 02:18, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

His mtDNA has indeed been analyzed: with mutations at 16224C and 16311C, he belonged to haplogroup K. - Nunh-huh 1 July 2005 12:20 (UTC)
Interesting you should bring up DNA--I don't know about studies on Ötzi himself, but the DNA of the meat in his intestines was actually analyzed to determine the species it originated from! Also, some analysis must be possible, if they were able to recognize the blood of four other people on Ötzi and his posessions. However, I doubt cloning technology is anywhere NEAR the level needed to clone him!

Modern corpse

"The body was at first thought to be a modern corpse, like several others which had been recently found in the region." -- And those others, were they mummies as well, or simply unfortunate hikers who died accidentally? --Menchi 18:39, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Other bodies have been found nearby, soldiers from a battle late in WW1. 152.91.9.115 04:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Picture

Is the reason there is no picture of Ötzi because the external links cover it or because of copyright? Usually, if there is a picture of someone or something famous, Wikipedia has a picture. Just curious. --User:FeanorStar7

Yeah a picture would be nice. patrickw 16:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Age of Otzi

Material in the museum in Bolzano-Bozen puts his estimated age at 40 to 53 ...

Fixed. Jorge Stolfi 00:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

What?

We're not going to even mention the "Ötzi was gay" scam/rumor? Clearly it should be characterized correctly, but I can't imagine it should be ignored...
--Baylink 23:00, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

I have to concur. This was actually the first thing I thought of when I came across this article - the fact that this rumor has penetrated (forgive the word choice) so far into popular culture should merit a mention. 68.104.201.53 21:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I can't see a reason not to put atleast a short note about this. Even if it's just a rumour, it should be mentioned as such. Any good reasons not to mention this? Pranab 23:39, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

````The Reports that Otzi was found with sperm in his anal cavity are entirley untrue as otzis anus and genitals were not recovered. it is speculated they were eaten by scavengers some time after he died. However maybe it should be mentioned so that we can but a stop to these wild allegations.

Shooting with an unfinished bow

How could he shoot someone with an unfinished bow ? Edit: I read an article in german Geo magazine from 10/2004 and there isnt anything mentioned about him shooting someone with his bow. They also say the bow was unfinished. I will delete this part: "The fight lasted about a day or two, during which time Ötzi killed at least two enemies with his bow, and recovered the arrow each time." --Anon

A day or two??? That's a fairly long skirmish anyway, for 3 warriors to undertake. This also suggests out that he was fighting, killing food and returning to fight. I think this is an accurate view
-- Philipwhiuk 20:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I have restored that sentence because (1) the paragraph is about Thomas Loy's theory, and that is what he said, according to an internet page (it should have been listed in the "External links" section, I will check that); and (2) it is hard to imagine someone setting out for a hunt with a quiver full of arrows but without a working bow. So it is quite possible that he lost his bow during the fight, and was trying to make a new one when he died. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 22:14, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Hair isotope analysis, vegetarian, sea foods

The following paragraph needs some attention:

Isotope analyses from his hair collagen indicated either Ötzi had been a lifelong vegetarian (unlikely, considering his last meal and attire), or had obtained most of his protein from sea foods (unlikely as well, considering the places he had lived in according to the teeth enamel analyses).
  1. Who did those analyses?
  2. What exactly were the conclusions? Presumably "mammal meat must have been a small part of his diet"? What about fowl, eggs?
  3. Does "sea foods" include freshwater fish? (!)
  4. Would fish be available at Ötzi's home town?

All the best, Jorge Stolfi 02:27, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree the statement about isotopic analysis needs to be fixed. patrickw 16:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

axehead composition

I'm going to remove the parenthetical "(actually an arsenical bronze)" from the sentence "Other items found with the Iceman were a copper axe with a yew handle". I can't find a solid reference confirming it was "bronze"; most authoritative accounts have it as "almost pure copper". The fact that it had traces of arsenic in it was, I think, most likely due to natural impurities, not a deliberate attempt by its maker to use an alloy. Furthermore, we've got Ötzi listed as being Chalcolithic (or copper/stone age), not bronze age. —Steve Summit (talk) 17:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Other theories

"One of the most fanciful theories was that he was in fact an Egyptian who had been ritually castrated. Later examination, however, revealed that, though shrunken by the mummification, Ötzi did in fact possess a penis." --The presence of a penis does not address the issue of castration. Dogosaurus 09:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall reading that he had a complete set of genitals a long time ago when this was news, but I don't know if I can find a reference at the moment. That was the wording present when I first discovered this page, though. - Rainwarrior 19:29, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

In this articles it says the 'iceman' is in the Italian bounderies and from what I heard from my teacher is different, she says its in the Austrian border and she also mentioned that the Austrians gave the Italians quite along time to research on it. Can some one tell me the correct statement.

The iceman was in the Austrian border in 1997. But subsequent surveys showed that the body had been located 92,55 meters inside Italian territory, see also [7]. It is now on display at the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology in Bozen-Bolzano, Italy, since 16 January 1998, see also: [8] This is the correct statement. -- Dietmar 21:20, 8 August 2006

Clothes And Shoes section

Section says his clothing included "a woven dirt cape."
Woven dirt? Is this a joke?
Septegram 15:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

This was vandalism. There were several other changes made by the same user. I have reverted all of them. patrickw 16:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Two Knives

The article lists a knife twice among the tools found on the body. Is this the same knife accidentally listed twice due to sloppy editing, or where there two different knives found? --68.102.156.139 04:19, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Curse section made into separate article

I have taken the liberty to make a separate article curse of Ötzi the Iceman from the "Curse" section of Ötzi the Iceman. That section was becoming too big compared to the rest of the article, and its constant edits were interfering with the work of those editors who are more interested in the scientific aspects of the find. The relevant parts of the Talk page were moved too. I hope that this solution is acceptable to everybody concerned. All the best, Jorge Stolfi 21:55, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

I take it the separate curse section was subsequently removed. patrickw 16:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I note that the article "Curse of Ötzi the Iceman" no longer exists independently and now redirects to the main article. At the risk of sensationalizing this article, do you think it would be useful to indicate in the section "Ötzi's curse" the names of the persons who have allegedly died as a result of the curse since the discovery of the Iceman in 1991? Cheers, Jacklee 15 March 2007

Request for semi-protection

Due to frequent vandalism from unregistered users since 9 March 2007, I have requested semi-protection for this article. See "Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#Current_requests_for_protection". Cheers, Jacklee 11:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Ötzi's health and Professor Sara Cibralic

Under the section 'Health', someone has indicated that a certain Professor Sara Cibralic was the person to discover that Ötzi seems to have suffered from intestinal cancer and had whipworm. Can a citation for this fact be provided, and some additional information on Professor Cibralic be provided (e.g., her area of research and which institution she is from)? Jacklee 13:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I note that someone has edited the article to remove the reference to Professor Cibralic and Ötzi's intestinal cancer. Cheers, Jacklee 15:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sandra Nemeth's DNA

when i first read this article they say they had found her D.N.A. on oetzi howcome this has been removed plz send answer to "themados@yahoo.com.au".

Hi, I believe the statement that Sandra Nemeth's DNA had been found on Ötzi after she spat on the body to prove that she had found it first was not backed up by any citations, and that was why it was removed. In fact, a news report (which is cited in the article) stated that Nemeth asked for a DNA test to be done on the body, but scientists said that it would not be possible to find her DNA on it. By the way, please make comments on the article on this Talk page, and sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 11:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Home Town

I have changed the hometown of the Ice Man to Velturno, which is the Italian name, instead of Felthunds. It makes no sense that the town, which is rather deep in Italy, would be written in the German form here. Both names link to the wiki page for the twon. - Izzo

But Feldthurns is in German-speaking South Tyrol. When there is no established English spelling, the spelling used in the locality should be used. The official website [9] is in both German and Italian. TiffaF 16:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
The main Wikipedia article is under the heading "Feldthurns", and "Velturno" redirects to that article. I've therefore updated the article to read "Feldthurns (Velturno)". Cheers, Jacklee 14:41, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Weight in stone

Is there any reason to provide his weight in "stone"? I wasn't aware of that unit even being in use anymore. On a similar note, if there's an official recommendation for which units to use in articles, I'd be grateful if someone would point it out to me. Shinyplasticbag 01:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

The stone is a common unit of weight in the UK, and is generally used for people's weight. I put it in because the UK newspaper article which I cited only gave Ötzi's weight in stones. The figure in kilogrammes was my own conversion of the weight in stones, and therefore may be less accurate. Also, I had a look at the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and it says that "Wikipedia articles are intended for people anywhere in the world. ... Conversions should generally be included and not be removed". Cheers, Jacklee 12:13, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivia section

A trivia section was recently added to the article with the following item of trivia:

  • In May 2007, American actor Brad Pitt had a silhouette of Ötzi tattooed on the inside of his left forearm.[1]

However, trivia sections are generally deprecated as they encourage editors to add miscellaneous facts which may not be very relevant to the article. They may also discourage improvement of the article since it is much easier just to tack on new trivia items rather than trying to incorporate them into the article properly: see "Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles".

I'm of the view that the above fact is very tangential to the article and should not be included on its own. However, it may be possible to create a section, perhaps called "Influence on popular culture", and refer to the fact in the context of a discussion of the influence that Ötzi has had on popular culture. Also, search engine results are not good citations as they change – instead, cite one or more of the reputable websites referred to in the search engine results page. If you have views on the subject, do share them here. Cheers, Jacklee 20:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This little tidbit tells us nothing about Otzi, and so it doesn't belong in this article. It tells us something about Brad Pitt; if it belonged anywhere, it would be in his article, though it's such a non-consequential piece of information it probably belongs nowhere....unless there's a list of Brad's tattoos in his article. - Nunh-huh 20:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sperm found on Ötzi's gear?

In the section "Scientific analysis of Ötzi", it is stated that sperm was found on the Iceman's gear. Is this vandalism, or attested by sources? If the latter, what have scientists said about the significance of the sperm? Would those more knowledgeable about archaeology and science comment on this? Cheers, Jacklee 15:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it is supposed to be plant pollen. Bus stop 15:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I read the article by Brenda Fowler in the links that you provided, which is actually in the "Further reading" section. I believe "sperm" referred to in that article was to endosperm. In fact, in the section entitled "The body", there is already a discussion of the pollen grains found among Ötzi's intestinal contents. Therefore, it is misleading for the "Ötzi the Iceman" article to refer to "sperm" being found on his gear, as most readers would understand this to mean spermatozoa or semen. I think the phrase should be deleted. Thoughts? Cheers, Jacklee 19:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. Bus stop 19:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

That was a quick response! OK, done. Cheers, Jacklee 20:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an urban legend about semen was found in Otzi, though, which was started as an April Fool's by a European gay magazine and later picked up and reported as fact. It's not related to the article Jacklee mentioned, I just thought it would be worth mentioning as people who'd heard the rumor might make a connection. It's a funny story, anyway. [10] Queer Scout 04:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that explains the mystery. Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 15:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Knife

The article lists a knife twice among the tools found on the body. Is this the same knife accidentally listed twice due to sloppy editing, or where there two different knives found? --68.102.156.139 21:05, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

All sources I've read only mention one knife (and an axe)Storeye 02:54, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ötzi's "curse"

Teh article read that some people have died because of the bloody curse or that it is "not surprising" and had a referrence.

Well, I am sorry, that is buyist and had to go so I just erased it from Wikipedia!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.147.137 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry too, but I don't see how that was a biased statement and have restored the statement. The point was made in the TV documentary referred to in the reference. In fact, for the article to just mention that certain people related to the discovery and study of Ötzi had apparently died because of the Iceman's curse and not to mention that there might be a quite-ordinary explanation for this would itself be biased. Cheers, Jacklee 12:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Error

On the top of the box thingy, it says "olders mummy alive". I think the word alive should be replaced with discovered. For one, we don't know if there are any more out there, and two, mummy's aren't alive. 71.185.49.209 16:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that. It's vandalism, and I've reverted it. Cheers, Jacklee 20:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

ur'-tsee

Hi, ur'-tsee is very problematic IMO. There's no /ɹ/ in Ötzi. Nor is there [øː] in English. --Kjoonlee 19:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

For English speakers with non-rhotic speech, the 'r' might be silent, more or less. But even then, the 'ur' sound will be slightly diphthongized. My first edit summary was "inaccurate". Please don't ignore these concerns. --Kjoonlee 19:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I see. Yes, a respelled pronunciation isn't able to capture the nuances of pronunciation. But in my view the problem is that most people don't know how to read International Phonetic Alphabet symbols. The article "IPA chart for English" doesn't explain how IPA symbols not used in English are pronounced, and the "International Phonetic Alphabet" article is unhelpful for this purpose. What is really needed is a clear, simple article along the lines of "IPA chart for English" but comprehensively explaining and providing examples for every IPA symbol. In the meantime, what about compromising by keeping the respelled pronunciation but adding a footnote stating: "There is no satisfactory way to indicate the pronunciation of the German "ö" using just the English alphabet, so the respelled pronunciation is only a rough approximation of the true pronunciation"? Cheers, Jacklee 22:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Rough approximations shouldn't contain glaring errors IMHO. Anyway, we provide audio samples, so shouldn't that be enough for people who can listen? --Kjoonlee 23:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Also, in the IPA article, [øː] is linked to close-mid front rounded vowel, which has Close-mid front rounded vowel.ogg (help·info). --Kjoonlee 23:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
It took me a while to find [øː] in "International Phonetic Alphabet", which confirmed my view that there needs to be a much simpler chart enabling general users to easily look up the meanings of IPA characters. (Something you might like to work on? :-)) And I discovered I don't have the right software to listen to .ogg files. But if you feel strongly about the inaccuracy of the respelled pronunciation, I suppose it can be left out. Cheers, Jacklee 03:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The simplest way to look them up is actually the search box. For example, ø links to the relevant vowel article. --Kjoonlee 05:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, right – I didn't realize that there were individual articles for each IPA symbol. Thanks. Cheers, Jacklee 11:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Had a look at the article "ø". Because the link to "Close-mid front rounded vowel" is in the middle, it's not the easiest way to find out how to pronounce that IPA symbol. Also, that article gives pronunciation examples from other languages, but that doesn't really help English speakers who are unfamiliar with those languages. Cheers, Jacklee 12:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The purpose of the ø is not to help read IPA, but to provide info on the character. It's just a simple article, and besides, you can search for "IPA" or "Alphabet" and get straight to the relevant bit, no? The close-mid front rounded vowel article is about the vowel itself; the examples document the vowel. Please don't forget there are also sound samples. --Kjoonlee 12:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, that is just my point :-). Let's say I'm a reader who is unfamiliar with the IPA. I'm reading an article like "Ötzi the Iceman" and, not being a German speaker, would like to know how to pronounce "Ötzi". But I see a symbol like "[øː]" and would like to know what it means. What I need is a simple table explaining how all these unfamiliar characters sound, either by reference to a known word (e.g., "like the 'ur' in 'burden') or by description (e.g, "like 'er' with pursed lips"). Print dictionaries usually have a page like this to help readers. I don't really want to go searching Wikipedia or having to download sound samples, do I? Cheers, Jacklee 12:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite apart from anything else, the name Ötzi doesn't have [øː] anyway, but [œ]. I agree a sound file would be the best solution; there is nothing we could write in an ad-hoc pronunciation guide that would approximate [œ], which is nothing like English "ur", least of all for rhotic speakers, who are the majority of native English speakers. As for what page to link to to help people find the symbols, German phonology might be more manageable than International Phonetic Alphabet. —Angr 13:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, right. Had another look at my German-English dictionary. It said (unhelpfully) that "ö" may be pronounced [ø], [øː] or [œ]. Guess I picked the wrong one. Think I'll verify German pronunciations with WikiProject Germany in the future. Thanks for the reference to "German phonology" – didn't know the article existed. Cheers, Jacklee 13:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

We now have [ˈœtsi] (help·info) in the article. No need to go hunting for symbols, since we have an audio sample. The only unfamiliar part would be [ˈœ], and œ links to open-mid front rounded vowel which has instructions (descriptions) and sound samples as well: Open-mid front rounded vowel.ogg (help·info) --Kjoonlee 14:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Otzi is super cool

Hi wats up peeps how are ya anyway bye! Princess Elisibeth the 2cnd! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.105.192.228 (talk) 21:20, 11 October 2007 (UTC)