Talk:Émile Durkheim

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[edit] Error in the education section?

I don't know very much about Durkheim, but this quote from the education section does not seems right to me: "Learning about individuals who have done good things for the many makes an individual feel insignificant." Shouldn't it be "makes an individual feel significant?" --FiftyOneWicked 15:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

seconded, I didn't understand this 87.112.25.145 (talk) 23:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

--No, no it shouldn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.243.191 (talk) 14:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Placement of education section?

Why is the material about education stuck at the bottom of the article like this? I know too little about Durkheim, but I'd love to see somebody who does know his work re-integrate that appendix (so to speak) into the article. --Christofurio 14:25, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC) --FiftyOneWicked 15:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

  • After reading the above comment, I noticed there were two parts about education, interrupted by a paragraph that began "Finally..." So, I put all that education stuff, together, in its own section. Still not ideal, if someone was interested enough to expand that into a seperate article, I think that would be great.--Brian Z 06:29, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

-user:smartgirlatbsms- should the answer be that if we compared our selves to the greats of the world we would feel insignificant to the world unless we do something great to impress the world to compare ourselves to be significant —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smartgirlatbsms (talk • contribs) 23:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Was the study on the book Suicide correct?

I remember reding here on wikipedia that the study about the suicide rate on the catholics and protestants was incorrect due to the different classification of the deaths by the police on both communities. I tryed looking about it on this page history but didn't find this reference. Anyone remembers about that?

Yeah, it was discussed in a sociology lecture I had, but I have no verifable sources for it. Will see if I can find anything.--LeftyG 03:45, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The idea of correctness would be more ideological. The study to whichI think that you're refeing is JWB Douglas' on coroners interpretations of suicides and his findings that there were certain key things they looked for (ie notes). This lead to some deaths that could have been suspicious being definined as suicide and visa versa. Kymii 22:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overhaul planned

I plan, one of these days, to go a bit more in depth with this entry... in my judgment, it's rather superficial and doesn't mention several of his important claims, such as the claim that society acts as a type of God for all involved.

This isn't to say that it's been terrible thus far... rather that it needs to be more in-depth.

--Abryct.

[edit] Accepted today?

Are his theories and ideas accepted and used today? Or have there been new and different theories in more recent years? Gflores Talk 17:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

See the Strain Theory, Social Control Theory and Subcultural Theory. David91 02:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

His theories, especially those on sacrifice, and thus religion, has been falsified. But the core of his ideas are still about and there are some who call themselves New-Durkheimians... --Yanemiro 17:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sociology of religion

I believe there should be a topic "Durkheim on religion" in here. Where´s a good explanation of his elementaries forms... ?

i have a question: lets take a look at this

Besides, the idea of the supernatural, as we understand it, is recent. It presupposes an idea that is its negation, and that is in no way primitive. To be able to call certain facts supernatural, one must already have an awareness that there is a natural order of things, in other words, that the phenomena of the universe are internally linked according to necessary relationships called laws. Once this principle is established, anything that departs from those laws necessarily appears as beyond nature and, thus, beyond reason: For what is in this sense natural is also rational, those relations expressing only the manner in which things are logically connected. Now, the idea of universal determinism is of recent origin; even the greatest thinkers of classical antiquity did not achieve full awareness of it. That idea is territory won by the empirical sciences; it is the postulate on which they rest and which their advancement has proved. So long as this postulate was lacking or not well established, there was nothing about the most extraordinary events that did not appear perfectly conceivable. So long as what is immovable and inflexible about the order of things was unknown, and so long as it was seen as the work of contingent wills, it was of course thought natural that these wills or others could modify the order of things arbitrarily. For this reason, the miraculous interventions that the ancients ascribed to their gods were not in their eyes miracles, in the modern sense of the word. To them, these interventions were beautiful, rare, or terrible spectacles, and objects of surprise and wonder (Øavµata, mirabilia, miracula); but they were not regarded as glimpses into a mysterious world where reason could not penetrate.

That mind-set is all the more readily understandable to us because it has not completely disappeared. Although the principle of determinism is firmly established in the physical and natural sciences, its introduction into the social sciences began only a century ago, and its authority there is still contested. The idea that societies are subject to necessary laws and constitute a realm of nature has deeply penetrated only a few minds. It follows that true miracles are thought possible in society. There is, for example, the accepted notion that a legislator can create an institution out of nothing and transform one social system into another, by fiat — just as the believers of so many religions accept that the divine will made the world out of nothing or can arbitrarily mutate some beings into others. As regards social things, we still have the mind-set of primitives. But if, in matters sociological, so many people today linger over this old-fashioned idea, it is not because social life seems obscure and mysterious to them. Quite the opposite: If they are so easily contented with such explanations, if they cling to these illusions that are repeatedly contradicted by experience, it is because social facts seem to them the most transparent things in the world. This is so because they have not yet appreciated the real obscurity, and because they have not yet grasped the need to turn to the painstaking methods of the natural sciences in order progressively to sweep away the darkness. The same cast of mind is to be found at the root of many religious beliefs that startle us in their oversimplification. Science, not religion, has taught men that things are complex and difficult to understand. But, Jevons replies, the human mind has no need of properly scientific education to notice that there are definite sequences and a constant order of succession between phenomena or to notice that this order is often disturbed. At times the sun is suddenly eclipsed; the rain does not come in the season when it is expected; the moon is slow to reappear after its periodic disappearance, and the like. Because these occurrences are outside the ordinary course of events, people have imputed to them extraordinary, exceptional — in a word, extranatural — causes.

why is it, that we think miracles in society are possible, if we dont believe in laws of nature operating in society? wouldnt we have to believe in such laws, so that when theyre broken, we can speak of miracles, as durkheim states in the first paragraph?

I intend to augment the religion section with references to Rodney Stark's critiques of Durkheim's approaches and perspectives. However, that's problematic when that section is quite uncited. So, if anyone feels like adding references for that section before I start adding referenced critiques, that would make the whole thing look better and more balanced. 23:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jclemens (talk • contribs)

[edit] Cleanup

The first half of this article or so needs some sort of cleanup and re-shaping (I'm not very familiar with Durkheim, so don't hold me to it). This article needs references. I don't know how this article was rated as a B without it having references.

LCecere 04:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I also wonder why this sentence is important: "His Jewish background did, however, shape his sociological perspective; many of his students and collaborators were fellow Jews, and often blood relatives."? If the Jewish background shaped his sociological perspective, we should explain how (i don't know), but what does it have to do with the fact that his collaborators were Jews? How did it impact his scholarship? Or am i missing something here? WikiDima 20:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Including Suicide

Is Durkheim's suicide not included in his theories and ideas section because there is a separate article on this? I do believe that we should add a link to his book Suicide (book) because his studies about suicide are very prominent still today in research. --FiftyOneWicked 15:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

There already is a link to it under the "Litterature" section --m3taphysical 18:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I realize there is a link after re-reading the article but I do believe it should still have a section that details his findings briefly with that link included in the section.--FiftyOneWicked 06:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Style: "science sociale" needed?

Does anyone object to removing "science sociale" (Social science) and replacing it with simply 'social science'? I don't think the French translation of the phrase is really adding anything useful to the article, and it certainly doesn't need to be clarified in (English) anyway. Cheers, Varlokkur 16:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I've already taken care to remove the unnecessary translation --m3taphysical 21:08, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Civil Service

It may be a while since I did my sociology degree but I seem to recall that one of the most important pieces of work was his study of the methods of the Civil Service, can a section on this not be added?

Was that not Weber with his work on bureacracy? Kymii 22:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Father of Sociology; Durkheim, Comte or . . .

http://home.att.net/~a.f.aly/khaldun.htm says it was Ibn Khaldun, a renaissance man 4 centuries before Comte. http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture25a.html says Auguste Comte(1798-1857) is best known today as the father of French positivist thought. ... It was Comte who first coined the expression "sociology." ... But wait, http://www.emile-durkheim.com/ says Emile Durkheim is considered by many to be the father of sociology. During his lifetime, he published an impressive number studies on subjects such as ...


And I thought Max Weber was regarded as the father of sociology.--Markisgreen 13:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phenomena

In the section where it says "religious phenomena stemmed from social rather than religious factors" or some such...

I don't think "phenomena" is quite the right word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.247.109.152 (talk) 08:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] dangling sentence

"Durkheim also had an extreme macro apporach, where social norms shape our consciousness"

just sitting alone as one of the final paragraphs! what's the purpose of this ... ? 87.112.25.145 (talk) 23:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)