Talk:Zinfandel

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Contents 1 Two wineries 2 Why is Grgich omitted? 3 Photos should be meaningful 4 Origins Research 5 Why include any wineries known for Zin? 6 Cult status

[edit] Two wineries

I simply added the name of two wineries that make significant contributions to this unique grape. Martinelli whoose Jackass and Jackass Hill are considered to be among the best of big style zins and Seghesio whoose makes a wide range of fien zins from bargain to excellent signle viyard wines.

On a more controversial note, I belive the statement that Zin is thick skin; and, therefore, survived prohibition is incorrect. Zin is very subject to rot because of its tight clusters. It did not ship well and the amount shipped back east for home wine making declined through out prohibition. It was prized by local, California, home wine makers and this is why it survived prohibition. My source is the book Zinfandel by Sullivan.

Hearing no response to my above comment: I made the changes to why Zin surrived prohibition. The source for the effect of zin's thin skined tight bunches on transportability is Zinfandel by Charles Sullivan.--Veniceslug1 02:57, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Grgich omitted?

After all, it was the owner of Grgich Hills who helped fund the study to identify Zinfandel - and I might say he produces a superior Zinfandel wine.

Yes, I've had some excellent Zinfandels from Croatian wineries in California. Dobra Zemlja is another example, from Amador county (Sierra Foothills). I think, though, that financial contributors to a research effort aren't really relevant to this article, even if one of the contributors happens to make wine. More relevant would be a description of the research.

"port" should probably be place in quotes are changed to port like. A port is a fortified wine from Oporto, Portugal; and. therfore is never made from Zin.

"Port" is one of those terms that the EU considers a protected designation, but which the USA treats as a generic term. Among the people I know they would all refer to a port-style wine as "port", regardless of where it came from. I think if you reserve the term for port from Oporto you sacrifice clarity to be pedantic.

[edit] Photos should be meaningful

The photo of a bottle that Agne27 inserted into the article is neither illuminating, helpful, explanatory, nor representative of Zinfandel wine labels (it's ugly too). And it's clearly a Ridge Winery bottle, which amounts to inappropriate advertising. This article is about the Zinfandel varietal; the grape not the wine, so a picture of a wine bottle adds nothing of value. If nobody can offer a compelling reason to keep it, it should be removed. Amatulic 01:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

As someone who personally can not stand the over-oaked fruit boom that is Ridge Zin, it was certainly not meant for advertizing. The meaning of the photo is to be an example of a bottle of Zin--a visual reference of a California Zin with varietal labeling that also gives note to it's Sonoma terrior. It's human nature to want to visualize something and it help to break up the monotony of paragraphs of text. I agree with you on the "ugly" part. My preference would be to have a picture of "Cardinal Zin"--one of the best wine names and colorful labels IMO. If anyone can get a copyright-safe picture of a different bottle to replace it, feel free. However, I wouldn't just remove the photo without having a better substitute to replace it. Agne 06:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see a compelling reason to keep it. As I said, this article is about the grape itself, not the wine. A picture of a barrel or a wine glass might serve the purpose better. There is no way anyone will ever agree on what would be a representative bottle of Zinfandel -- Sonoma Zins certainly don't set any standard (to me Amador Zins are far superior) -- and any label one could display would still create advertising or copyright problems. I have Zinfandel bottles with no label at all, but what good would that be? It's better to remove the picture. So what if the article is paragraphs of text? It's an encyclopedia; having lots of text is expected and normal. Provide a wine glass or barrel if you want, but even then I don't see the encyclopedic value in this article. Amatulic 01:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins Research

Both Zinfandel and Primitivo are actually from Croatia, Primitivo has been grown in Italy almost as long as Zinfandel in California which means it was brought to Italy almost at the same time it crossed the ocean to become most famous American-Californian wine. Both Primitivo and Zinfandel trace their origin to Crljenak. There is possibility that it was also brought to Croatia from Albania or Greece but these are only speculations as there is no conclusive indication that it is so. --Afrika paprika 23:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I have made major revisions to this article, breaking it up into sections, expanding on the history and ancestry of Zinfandel (which allowed a mention of Grgich as requested above), and replacing the picture of the wine bottle with a picture of Zinfandel's ancestor vine. I took this picture myself when I visited the vineyard in Croatia recently, and I put it in public domain. I added personal POV notes to the summary of this picture because I thought they may be of interest but not appropriate for the article, but if they're inappropriate in the picture summary feel free to remove them. I think as "author notes" they're probably okay.

The additional information on history and ancestry I gathered from Croatian literature given to me personally by Ivica Radunić, the owner of the vineyard where Zinfandel's ancestor was discovered. I also include a reference to the account of Zinfandel's genetic history by Carole Meredith (the genetecist who discovered it). Amatulic 15:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why include any wineries known for Zin?

Is there any factual basis for the sentence near the end: "Wineries particularly known for their Zinfandel include Ravenswood Winery, Ridge Vineyards, Rosenblum Cellars, and Sutter Home Winery, the last having developed the 'White Zinfandel' that became such a popular seller." I can understand the value of including the last part about the originator of White Zin, but who is to say what other wineries are "particularly known" for their Zinfandels? Is there a reference available, or is this just an advertisement or someone's list of personal favorites? I know I have not been particularly impressed with some on that list, so I wonder about including any at all. Amatulic 21:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

They would be known by their the volume of their sales and their expert scores. I share with you a personal distate for some of their product, however that is POV. I agree that a criteria for what makes a notable winery should be set up and that criteria applied, instead of our own personal tastes. Agne 21:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point. I wonder where an unbiased source of such information about volume or scores can be found?

Hm, now that I think about it, expert scores might not be good indicator of how well-known a Zinfandel is, because a good score often causes a wine to become known, not the other way round. (In my experience the experts often miss on quality, though - there are many great Zins that the experts have never tasted, which I like better than some "98 point" publicized ones.) Sales volume would probably be a better indicator of how well known something is.

Okay, after much google searching, I found this, which indicates the highest-volume wines sold in restaurants, and 3 of the top 10 are Zinfandels — white Zinfandels. That surprises me. I'm skeptical that this correlates with overall sales volume, considering that I see more red Zin than white being produced in California wineries. But then, I don't visit the mega-operations. Amatulic 00:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

White Zin production dwarfs regular Zin production. There may be far fewer names that make it, but it's the third most popular varietal (4th if you're talking $$'s) out there. White Zin is almost 10% of the market (total number of cases), while Zin is just 1.5%. Here's a link for all the data. The Bethling 17:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Just speculating here....Could it be that the much larger volume of white Zin is because it is used in many blends, while red Zin is often sold as red Zin? Where I live there is no visible white Zin. I've never seen it. -- Fyslee (collaborate) 08:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: I have deleted the entire Notable producers section, because notability could not be established for any but Sutter Home, and it has attracted advertising and people who want to put their own POV-favorite in the list. Out it goes. Please discuss a valid rationale for restoring it here, before putting it back. -Amatulic 19:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with its removal. It bothered be from when I first started editing the article, which is why I had changed the White Zinfandel item on Sutter Home prior. The reason for it being on there before was not well stated. I think myself or someone else should do a section mentioning white zinfandel and Sutter Homes creation of the marketed product. However there is documented evidence of White Zinfandel production back to the introduction of Zinfandel to California according to Charles Sullivan's Book. When I have time, Ill work on that. I do not think that anyone should add back anything to do with notable producers as it was. It is pure opinion unless someone was to find every producer of Zinfandel there is and put it there, which would be a fruitless endeavor and would need to be constantly updated to be "encyclopedic". Christopher Tanner, CCC 19:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher

[edit] Cult status

I would think that its cult status could be mentioned. "To err is human, to Zin is divine!" -- Fyslee (collaborate) 22:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for it? if so, go right ahead. —Dgies^t c 22:51, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

how about "there are saints, and then there are Zinners"? Just being a bit irreverent here. I know someone who has been in the business for a long time and has an ancient sweatshirt with that slogan. Not really saying it should be included in the article! Novium 23:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

A little collection of Zin quotes and sayings could make the article more interesting. -- Fyslee (collaborate) 08:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well maybe....providing there are reliable sources attached to the quotes and some encyclopedic context. A general list of random quotes and saying wouldn't be appropriate. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 08:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it should be encyclopedic, which can also include interesting information. Articles may be entertaining, besides informative. The Zin fans subculture has a few quotes and sayings that could be used in a description of that subculture. It's not a pressing issue. Maybe I'll get around to it one of these days. Here's an interesting example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinot_noir#Recent_popularity

-- Fyslee (collaborate) 10:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Quotes such as those I do not feel appropriate for an encyclopedic article. They aren't facts. Parker's comment for example is his own personal opinion for the Pinot Noir, someone saying the same for Zinfandel would just be opinion as well. I think it is better to stick to facts than to talks of mysticism about wine. Besides being a non-encyclopedic concept, they also leave an air of snobbery. If it is to show a trend toward current popularity, then describing the arising of organizations such as ZAP or a proliferation of books like Sullivan's Zinfandel book or others would address this idea of cult status better. Writing with proper references to the Zinfandel language would be good as well. I fear the use of the word cult though, because anyone can be seen as a cult wine in an area somewhere in the world.Christopher Tanner, CCC 20:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)tanner-christopher