Talk:Zeon

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[edit] Context

Wow, could whoever wrote this; tell us what does this refer to. Some context would not go amiss. A computer game? A scifi book? movie? TV-series? As it is, it is in grave danger of being blanked.Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick

Complete merger from Zeon Earth Attack Force article, then redirect. This includes eliminating internal links to Zeon Earth Attack Force--Tznkai 13:18, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] recent vandalism and more deep thought

I did not notice the out-of-place-ness of the Zeon-German relation section until recent vandalism(?) acts. I kinda understands the Zeon-German relations before seeing this article, however, most of that is just fan presumed material and little is official(Although the author does claimed his idea came from WWII German). Is there an actual official release saying this much about the relationship? Because that long section seems like non NPOV material to me. MythSearcher 16:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the Zeon German connection

Whether or not it is official shouldn't be a question. Any fool can see the connection without official statements. I found the old version of that section to be perfectly accurate.

The problem is, Wikipedia Policy states no original research. If there is a reference, fine. If there is no reference, sorry, it should not stay. MythSearcher 13:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

it doesn't require references imo i mean come on if u can't see the nazi similarity u are blind. almost every gundam fan i've met jokingly refers to the zeon as "space-nazis". it may not be directly stated but gihren was awfully proud of being compared to hitler, so arguably the real leader of zeon, practically admits to being a nazi. later they are AXIS-zeon, hell the last episode of 08th ms team didn't air on CN cuz of the kids similarity to the nazi's brainwashing of children. and how about neo-zeon and neo-nazis? even with out the blatently obvious stuff, they are a facisist dictatorship, and the most well known facisist dictatorship is?...so even with out all the mobile suits, flags, hitler references, and axis references there would still be a good reason to mention germany in the article if for nothing but comparison purposes. regardless, the section in question even mentions it wasn't directly stated, it never says zeon=3rd reich, it just says there is a hinted relationship. its like saying zechs marquise isn't a char rip off cuz its not directly stated. it's obvious dude, as long as it doesn't claim it as indisputible fact (and it doesn't) it should stay. --147.26.232.92 02:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You do not understand, everything needs reference in wikipedia, no matter how obvious. If you cannot state a source, it is original research. It is the official policy of wikipedia, not written by me. If you are going to use wiki, you have to follow the rules. I mean, I know a cat is an animal, but I still need to list references for it when writing a wiki article. You play a game, you follow the rules, it is that simple. MythSearcher 04:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

i understand that but there is a certain point where u are bogged down in citations imo. with the cat hyperbole u used there would be a point were every sentence has to have a citation with it, and i'm not fully familiar with wiki's policies but i know MLA format says common knowledge doesn't need a reference (i'm sure wiki is probably different but it shouldn't be by much i imagine). none the less, technically he does have references; albeit indirectly through the use of examples: model kits, multiple series (in some cases even specific episodes), various dubs, flags etc. the only thing he did that could be original research by wiki's definition is the synthesis of those sources to make a new opinion. the problem with that being it isn't a new opinion, he surely isn't the first person i know to come to this conclusion; but the most important one is that u said yourself the creator said his idea came from WWII germany. its that sense it's not a synthesis its an elaboration of just how it MIGHT have been influnced by germany. from that perspective the only source he would really need is that statement by the creator, and maybe minor alterations to the diction, right? --147.26.232.92 04:47, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

You know the level difference between this and that, right? I mean, one sentence stating they have a lot in common and a whole section with a few paragraphs is not what people call an obvious comparison. If you do not know what policies wiki has, read here and here. No speculation, no original research. The whole section should be removed and a trivia sentence stating the creator said he got the idea from WWII German is what we should do here. If not, the tag of original research and POV should be kept due to the policy. MythSearcher 06:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

so your problem with it is that it's too detailed? yeah wouldn't want to actually give examples and show HOW they have a connection lets just say there is one and leave those unfamiliar with the early series confused as to how? doesn't wiki's policy say that when dealing with works of fiction such as this it should be written in a way that would make it accessible to a more general audience? (cuz i know its mentioned on mu la flaga's article) from what i see that's what he is trying to do. u keep saying its original research and it really isn't, it's not speculation either there IS a connection even u admit the creator says there is one. he wrote it out so that someone not familiar with the series could understand what that connection is. when dealing with an encyclopedia i don't think having too much information or detail is a bad thing. --147.26.232.92 18:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

No, my problem about it is not that it is too detail, it is that the details are all original research from speculation, without proper sources. The general audience does not need a detailed preassumption of what Zeon is like, they can see for themselves if they ever read or watch the story. The Mu's page tag is not about wiki's policy but a more user oriented suggestion. Read the policy itself, what you are doing is exactly sepculation, "Oh, I see that their clothes look similar", "Oh, oh, they use German to name some of their MS, they must be nazis", "Oh, their defeat and rebirth are so similar". Stop it, a lot of military uniforms look a like, German names also have no relationship with Nazis, also, all the said MSes in the article actually are not from the original First Gundam, there are named as such because their design is after Tomino stating he referenced WWII German and mecha designers try to make it more consistent, Zeon relationship with WWII German is way before the naming of such MSes. And their defeat and rebirth? A lot of nations encountered that, a lot of military encounter that, it is just simply prejudgement of them having a relation that makes the speculation possible. Yes, A ford can be red, can I simply write under ford article that the red ford has a relationship with the ferrari, which the usual colour is red? No, that is just pure speculation and is essencially the same thing of what that section is doing.

Like I said, the creator said one sentence, do not mix it with what you speculate. MythSearcher 00:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My main problem with mithsearcher's previous statement is that I think comparing 2 dictators/nations with 2 cars is a little bit different the fact that several arguments differs from one lone argument and that colors are also incredibly genneral does'nt help his argument. another flaw is that there are multiple published sources that suggest this. I wish I still had the links, since they're on my favorites list wich was erased when my sister crashed the computer(I mean litterally crashed. onto the floor). Also the neutrallity of this entry should NOT be under questioning. the origional research part is still somewhat debatable. I whole heartedly agree with 147.26.232.92's argument

Wow! That was one of oldest trick in book. "It was there, I just can't remember where it is!?" Sadly, my teacher never buy it when I use this trick to claim I had finished my homework. So I don't think I will buy your since they're on my favorites list wich was erased when my sister crashed the computer either. By the way, who is mithsearcher? Never see that user post anything.L-Zwei 05:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Per MythSearcher, "The problem is, Wikipedia Policy states no original research. If there is a reference, fine. If there is no reference, sorry, it should not stay."

Well, there is, in fact, a direct reference to Zeon and Nazis in the original Gundam series; Ghiren's father, Sovereign Degwin Zabi tells him about a man who lived in "the middle ages" (Gundam takes place in the future for those unaware) named Adolf Hitler, and tells Ghiren, in a not-so-suttle way: "Dude, you're basically Hitler."

Of course, this is already part of the section regarding Zeon and the parallels with Nazis...

Anyway, I'd say that qualifies as a reference... not to mention the Principality of Zeon battle flag in 0083 basically being the Nazi battleflag minus the swastika, the cry of "Sieg Zeon!," the entire idea of the Principality touting the superiority of Spacenoids (those that live in Space) over Earthnoids (those that live on earth; Aryans vs Non-Aryans).

Principality of Zeon = Nazis. Particularly under Ghiren.

If those aren't references, I don't know what is! 66.245.47.151 06:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)kazuo