Talk:Zeibekiko

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[edit] Explanation behind the Zeybek Dance

Unfortunately Wikipedia is beginning to become more and more polarized - with adminstrators editing and weilding power with subjectivity and playing to racial sympathies. It's no use merely editing and showing sources for reasons to edit - check this page's contribution history. Mel Etitis just keeps reverting and has even got blocked for doing so.

In our discussions about changes to this page he has contantly been rude, dismissive and arrogant and has also made accusations towards me, namely that I am supposedly some anon that has accused him of being racist. I don't need to go anon to do that. After my long discussions with him over the dispute of this page, I accuse him openly. His last abusive statement that my English is lacking was completely uncalled for and will not be tolerated by me. I will be making the necessary complaints - our discussions are in the open and for everyone to read. It is suffice to say I am not alone in my views of this person.

It is a pity, beacuse we should show respect to people of his age and they should at least have amassed some wisdom to show for all their years on this planet. But I guess there always will be exceptions.

Wikipedia is coming a place where the public no longer edit, resembling some mythos of Greek admin Gods on a high Mount Olympus, who come down now and again and allow us few mortals to chip away at their point of view.

Wikipedia isn't here to re-write history.

I want to write this explanation to go with this page in the hope that if interested people come to read this page, they can get the fullest facts.

Firstly, please note that there are no sources or citations on this page. Why? Because Mel Etitis has no need for them. He has put his point of view across and won't listen to anyone who shows authority to the opposite. He can just dismiss it as irrelevant and continue to revert.

Secondly, although ALL Zeybek dance forms (be they Greek or Turkish) have a common UNIFYING charateristic form - so that whether you are in the Turkish or Greek Aegean you can immediately recognise it, Mel Etitis refuses to accept this. He promotes that the Greek Zeybek merely originates (in a very far and distant way) to the Turkish folk dance. For this reason (after someone called him up on just removing Turkish music samples of the Zeybek dance from this page) he then decided to open a new and separate page for the information found on the Internet for the Turkish Zeybek dance - merely to perpetuate his own (completely imagined) view that these are in fact two separate dances.

They are not. As with many other articles where Turkish and Greek cultures conjoin - namely folk instruments such as the baglama, food such as lokum and baklava and other folk dances such as the ciftetelli, one wonders why Mel Etitis seems so adamant on seaparating these two dances - especially when I have continously asked him to provide independent sources - and he has constantly failed to do so.

If one looks at the history of the Greek Zeybek - there are racial and nationalistic sensitivities ar play. Hellenes have for years after they gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire, tried to erase the word Turkish and Ottoman influences from their culture. While the rest of teh Balkans calls the coffee they drink Turkish, Greeks decided to coin a new term. They've done the same for kebabs, too. This is just another show of that feeling.

Mel Etitis explains the onus is on me.

With that mentality then, I can open an article on some mythical subject and argue that no one may change it as now the onus is on them to bring verifiable sources before any amendment can take place.

And then (as is in the power of the Gods) when this information is pooled together - it is just dismissed as irrelevant.

Finally when you object, as is your right, you are dismissed from the mountain and communication is cut.

Administrators should not only be fair, independent and objective but promote open dialogue, too. Mel Etitis fails on all areas in my book. Deff6 00:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek/Turkish Zeybek

In my discussion with Mel Etitis, he has already explained that he cannot substantiate his own personal belief that the two dances are so separate from each other that they require separate articles.

He then challenged me that the ONUS of proving that his personal opinion was wrong by proving it. I am providing articles where he could not.

Read this article

Francesco Martinelli spends some time on the island of Hydrawhere the world gathered to review the history and share the music of Greece's historic rebel music.

It is only a review but it traces the history and developement of Remebitika and the Greek Zeybek dance and it does not back YOUR OPINION that they are so distinct as to be two separate dances (and so as to require two different pages).

Note: Always when the dance is commented in English it is called the Greek Zeybek - against your OWN PERSONAL argument that two different names point to two different dances.

Read this article:

Article MT080 - from Musical Traditions No 3, Summer 1984

Note: In 1922, following the failure of Greek territorial exploits in Turkey, there began a mass exodus of refugees from Asia Minor to the Greek mainland culminating in the burning of the port of Smyrna by Turkish troops. This displacement of one million people, Greek in name but entirely Turkish in existence, had a dramatic effect on Greece both economic and cultural.

Read this article:

The famous Cafe Aman

Note: If you have dome any research you'd realise what a famous club this is and even this calls rembetika and its ilk MUSIC FROM ASIA MINOR.

Read this article:

Leigh Cline

Note: Musician who labels the greek Zeybek dance as merely a Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor.

I do want to assume good faith but the only reason I can see for this user not to like to see an example of Turkish zeybek music and information of the original dance on this page is because he is editing with a personal point of view favourable to a certain group of people.

Deff6 01:40, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

  1. Most of the material to which you link is uncontroversial but also irrelevant.
  2. The first link refers to the relationship between the rembetes and the Zeybeks, but what it says about the dance is: "The zembekiko (9/8) rhythm forms the basis of the male solo dance of the rebetes, and originates in Anatolian folk music." That the dance originates in Anatolian folk music isn't in dispute, and is clearly stated in this article.
  3. All that Cline says is: "ZEYBEK - Fashioned on the Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor"; you've added the "merely". Moreover, he's describing one of his compositions that he's called "zeybek" — he's not defining the form. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Mel you can't read and you're a lier how you are an admin I din't know but it doesn't bode well for Wikipedia if there ar epeople like you about. I only hope (from reading all th eother discussions) that eventually everyone's negative energy towards you will cosmically emerge and remove you as soon as possible. That youth thing you brag about, is that mental too?

The sources ARE NOT IRRELEVANT - they all treat the ZEYBEK as ONE DANCE with two variations. So it disproves your point. Deff6 23:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zeimbekiko is 9/4

Zeimbekiko is 9/4! Aptaliko which is a faster type of zeimbekiko is 9/8. I present the rhythm with hand drum notation ; D-t---t-D---t---D-t---t-D---t---t--- .Each symbol in this case is a sixteenth therefore we have 36/16 which is 9/4! Aptaliko is D-ttD-t-D-ttD-t-t- and is obviously played twice the speed of zeimbekiko and stressed a little differently. Aptaliko is 18/16 which is 9/8.--Zito ta xania 23:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I've always known zeimbekiko to be mainly 9/8, with occasional variants in 9/4. My understanding is backed up by this article from Musical Traditions No 3, Summer 1984, as well as by these: [1], [2].
Drum notation doesn't really help much; I have a few books of the music, and zeimbekikos are almost always in 9/8 (which is why I've always played them in that time). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
As I told you it is a common mistake for zeimbekiko to be regarded as 9/8 and the articles you propose fall in the same rule. This happens because zeimbekiko used to be 9/8 a lot years ago since it was played twice the speed than it is played now. If you have time download the song "Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας(To zeimbekiko tis Eudokias)" written by Μάνος Λοΐζος(Manos Loizos) which is a quite common zeimbekiko and I believe you can easily find it. Try to count it! You 'll see that if we count 8ths they are too slow to be 8ths...! If it is 9/8 then the 8th lasts about a second which is quite long!--Zito ta xania 21:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

If modern musicians play zeimbekiko slower now, then that can be said in the article — but it would be wrong to make it look as though a recent development is the simple truth about the history of the dance. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

a Greek improvisational solo dance. Turkish people also dance zeybek or zeibeikko. If you have a sources that this dance was found by Greek people, could, please, show it ? Cheers--TuzsuzDeliBekir 20:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The article is about "zeimbekiko", not "zeybek". The former comes from the latter, quite right, but they're not the same. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Ohhhh, sorry for misunderstanding Mel Etitis. I thought that they were the same dance. I am interested in furtherin info. about zeimbekiko. Do you know any link of it ? Sorry again. --TuzsuzDeliBekir 07:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to apologise; the Greek dance is certainly derived from the Turkish dance, which is why it has a Greek version of the same name. I don't know of a really good link, I'm afraid. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I get so angry when I read so much bulls*t. Just exactly what is your source to say these dances are so completely different that they require separate pages? or removal of a music sample? Tuysuzbekir how can you just take what he says as is? Can't you research for yourself? Why don't you ask him what his justification is for saying they are completely different (yet originate from each other) which is an oxymoron in itself. The attack of teh Greekipedia once again. 82.145.231.144 12:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that they were completely different; on thr contrary, they're closely connected and have many similarities. If you take the time to read what people say, you might cut down your apoplectic fits. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

IT IS TEH SAME DANCE. IT IS JUST BECAUSE GREEKS HAVE MADE IT SOME KIND OF SYMBOL OF GREEK NATIONALISM (FASLEY LIKELY REMBETIKO MUSIC) THAT THIS GUY IS PLAYING TO GREEK SENSITIVITIES AND NOT ALLOWING THE INFORMATION ON THE PAGE. Where the hell is NPOV. And this guy is an administrator? The Greeks should learn that aome of their "national" dances come from international sources. 82.145.231.36 01:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I realise that this person isn't going to listen to or understand what I say, but I'll say it for the benefit of others who might read this.
  1. There is no hint of Greek nationalism about this; the dance isn't "the national dance", but was part of the rembetiko sub-culture, and is now one of many popular dances (changed still further from the original).
  2. I don't understand the reference to Rembetiko; perhaps if the anon calmed down he might be more coherent.
  3. NPoV has nothing to do with my position; that's the anon's claim. I'm concerned with accuracy.
  4. The article clearly states that the dance has Turkish origins, and I doubt that many Greeks are unaware of that, nor of the origins of other popular dances and music.
  5. This anon has now been blocked at two IP addresses; if he continues to make personal attacks (like the ones that other editors removed from this page; see the History if you're interested in childish outbursts of swearing) and to vandalise my talk page, he'll be blocked at more. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Racisim

I cannot understand why a Greek would edit the page to remove additions of music samples. get out of denial and move on. We know you like to think you own Wikipedia and even though most administrators do make us feel this is Greekipedia - it is just yet. 82.145.231.219 02:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

  1. Read and obey Wikipedia:No personal attacks.
  2. I'm not Greek, as a glance at my User page would have told you.
  3. This article is about the Greek dance; the Turkish dance from which it is derived is different. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No this article should be about BOTH of them. Like çiftetelli is dealt with and you are mistaken that they are not the same. The sound example given is a TYPE of zeybek dance called AĞIR meaning SLOW. It is just one FORM. get it? And one look at your profiles tells me your are Greek or a sympathiser - which means the same thing. Tuzsuz Bekir what are you apologising to some sorry excuse for a grease for? 82.145.231.144 12:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Blocked for twenty-four hours for racial abuse (the fact that it involves a childish misattribution of race is irrelevant). I suggest striongly that, if you want to come back and edit, you change your attitude. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Greek racism

How Zembekiko derived from the Turks and the Zembeks together? You are inconsistent.


[edit] Seriously weird Greek POV

Zeybek is a Turkic word, a Turkic dance, apparently Zeibekkos is different, so why does the article say Zeibekkos is danced in Turkey but danced MORE and is MORE popular in Greece. What sources are there to back this POV???

p.s Zeybeks are not an ethnic group, they're mountainess warrior rebels who fought against the Greek-invasions in WW1.

Who cares? Most of these dances are derived from Byzantine Greek origins anyway. Do we bring up the constant Turkish appropriation of Byzantine culture in this respect? No. We don't.
Correct. A funny thing is that I read somewhere that bouzouki is an instrument which descents from Turkish saz, while in reality all these Turkish instruments like saz, tambur, baglama etc. are based in the Byzantine pandoura (ancient Greek pandouris). The same happens with the dances.

You don't know what the heck are you talking about ? Saz, bağlama, kopuz these are all known in all Turkic nations. From Siberia to Turkey. Yet ancient Anatolian culture doesn't belong to Greeks. Greeks belong to Greece. Just because some of them colonized Anatolia doesn't mean Greeks are natives to Anatolia. Greeks once colonized Crimea and Eygpt, do you also fake their culture like yours ?--85.100.33.205 19:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.shlomomusic.com/images/Pandoura,%20330-320%20BCE.300%20DPI.jpg

Can you show us some ancient Turkic art depicting this type of instrument? Didnt think so... It is quite clearly Greek and not Mongolia in origin.

lute#History and evolution of the lute, komuz, saz, baglama (not the Greek one), at least the name of bouzouki is derived from Turkish. Please take a look at this as well: [[3]] It is not clearly Greek, more likely Anatolian. probably dating to earlier times than Hittites.

Ancient Turks were living just to the east of Caspian Sea, Anatolia is to the west of Caspian sea (close to Caspian Sea), there is not much distance between them. Ancient Greece is even closer deniz 15:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blue Rondo Al A Turk

Is Blue Rondo Al A Turk by Dave Brubeck an example of this rhythmically? I'm assuming it is.

[edit] Question to Turkish speakers

Does the word zeybek really refer to the form of music? Shouldn't it be something like zeybekçe?--Domitius 16:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

zeybekçe, as a noun, would mean language of zeybeks (it can also be used as an adverb 'zeybekçe davran' (behave like zeybek), though one would prefer 'zeybek gibi davran', which is also the literal translation of 'behave like zeybek'.)

zeybek müziği, zeybek havası mean zeybek music

zeybek dansi, zeybek oyunu mean zeybek dance

zeybek normally means a zeybek (person), but it can refer to zeybek dance for instance in the following context:

instead of

Zeybek oyunu oynayalim (Let's dance zeybek dance)

one can say

Zeybek oynayalim (Let's dance zeybek)

similarly for music

zeybek müziği çalalım (let's play zeybek music)
zeybek çalalım (same thing)

sorry, the explanation was too long

deniz 20:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

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