Talk:Ze'ev Jabotinsky

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Yours truly, --Ludvikus 05:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

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Contents

[edit] Edit request

Could the section about the unit that he started be changed from saying several hundred Jews to several hundred Jewish men? It's more accurate and less sexist.


[edit] Pro-Israel Bias?

Im changing the wordings of "Palestine Mandate" and "Land of Israel" to just "Palestine". It seems more appropiate, and fair and balanced. The other two wordings have a pro-Israel slant.

[edit] Torah Umadda

"He is also seen within the Modern Orthodox world as a symbol of Torah Umadda" - a source is needed for this, since Jabotinsky was a "thoroughly secular atheist" ([2] and plenty of other sources). --Zero 14:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Jabotinsky believed in G-D. He states this in the Iron Wall, he was secular-orientated, yet not athestic at all. Thus, his teachings are promoted in many Yeshivot around Israel & Diaspora

Regarding Jabotinsky's alleged atheism, his article "Four Sons" speaks of his profound understanding of the "Four Sons" story traditionally read on Pesach (Passover). I have see no evidence of atheism in any of his writings, and someone merely calling him "atheist" proves nothing. Clearly he was not a religious fanatic, but that does not mean he was atheist.

[edit] Mussolini and Jabotinsky?

According to the edition made in Polish Wikipedia, in 1934 Jabotinsky obtain help from fascist regime in Italia. Fascist militia was conducting military training of young Zionists from his organization. Can any one confirm this information? Superborsuk 22:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't confirm it definitively, but it would fit. Keep in mind that, entirely unlike Hitler, Mussolini was not an anti-Semite. I've seen some sort of liaison with Fascist Italy alluded to in what I would consider reliable sources (including the essay I mention in the next section), but I've never seen anything that had that as its focus. - Jmabel | Talk 15:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Sources for this include Shavit's book on the Revisionist movement. There's also an article on the topic that I didn't read yet: Vincenzo Pinto, Between imago and res: The Revisionist–Zionist Movement's Relationship with Fascist Italy, 1922–1938, Israel Affairs, Volume 10, Number 3 / Spring 2004, 91-109. --Zerotalk 08:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I've read that Betar maintained a training ship in Italy, but I can't remember the source at the moment! --Ian Pitchford 14:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent essay on Jabotinsky

I just read what struck me as an excellent essay on Jabotinsky:

  • Jacqueline Rose, "The Zionist Imagination", The Nation, June 26, 2006, p. 27-34.

Nominally, it is a book review of a translation of Jabotinsky's novel The Five, and to some extent it is that, but that's more a point of departure than anything else. Despite The Nation's left-leaning politics, it is by no means a hostile essay.

For various reasons, I don't feel I'm a particularly good person to write this article, but I strongly urge whoever is working on it to read the piece; I suspect it is worth mining. - Jmabel | Talk 15:53, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


I disagree. The article is very well written and well researched. However, Jacqueline Rose brought with her a whole set of preconceived notions: that Zionism is a failure, that 'persecution' of 'Palestinians' is what really matters and persecution of Jews is not worthy of attention, that Jews are under obligation to choose victimhood and death rather than any sort of injustice towards anyone else.
Jacqueline Rose is a professor of English and Drama at Queen Mary, University of London. She is an author of "The Question of Zion" (2005), where she undertakes to save Judaism from Zionism and concludes that Israel is a betrayal of Jewish history and the Jewish heritage and adoption of all that is, historically and morally, un-Jewish. She spoke for the motion "Zionism today is the real enemy of the Jews" in a debate that took place on Jan. 25, 2005 (the eve of the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz-Birkenau) at the Royal Geographical Society in London, where she said: "How can the creation of a Jewish nation on the back of the suffering, the humiliation of another people, not be dangerous for the Jews?.. [Treatment of the Palestinian people in 1948] was ethnic cleansing... I urge you to support us; if you do, you will be sending a message to all around the world that the Jewish people did not survive attempted genocide to become the brutal oppressors of another people. Enough, no more, there is a better ethic, and there can be a better, safer, future for the Jews."
All this puts a major slant on everything in the article. It is a subtle essay, not a hate-filled rant, yet I think it is quite hostile and prejudiced.

[edit] Fascism

It documented that Jabotinsky was a fascist. There are claims that he twice tried to join the Nazi Party, but I have not confirmed this. He is, however, the inspiration for the Israeli Likud party. Were the nazi claim to be true, this would be very interesting. More research on this will follow. --Ibykus prometheus 22:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Never heard of him trying to join the Nazi party, and I seriously doubt it. If there is any truth at all to this, Lenny Brenner's book "The Iron Wall" should have it. I didn't look. --Zerotalk 08:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
On Jabotinsky being fascist. I do not know about the Mussolini connection, so there could be something with regard to support for early Italian fascism. Even this is implausible, since Jabotinsky was a great admirer of Italian Risorgimento, which is quite far from fascism. Beyond that, there is no doubt about Jabotinsky's hatred for Nazis, nazism and Hitler, as well as Mussolini after allignment with Hitler. It is true that David Ben Gurion used to refer to Jabotinsky as "Vladimir Hitler," but that speaks about Ben Gurion, not Jabotinsky. It is also true that many call Jabotinsky a "Nazi" simply because they hate him or the Jewish people in general, but in their lexicon it is just a swear word or a smearing tactic. If there were any real connection between Jabotinsky and fascism or nazism, they would have found it out long ago.

[edit] Anglophile or Italophile

Jabotinsky was not so much an Anglophile as an Italophile. His youth was spent in Italy, he spoke Italian like a native and loved the country. He was in awe of Italian Risorgimento and often referred to Giuseppi Garibaldi with admiration. For example, in the article "Our Everyday Event" (Russian: Наше бытовое явление), he writes that in comparison with Jewish survival of two-thousand-year-old persecution, "even the resurrection of Italy look small." His article "Obscurantist" (Russian: Мракобес) is basically a non-stop praise of Garibaldi.

It is true that Jabotinsky for a while put his trust in England, especially after the signing of the Balfour Declaration of 1917. Yet he always maintained that small element of doubt that allowed him to remain in contact with reality. When he saw that England is turning its back on Jews, he turned his back on England. His main goal always was to establish a modern Jewish state, with or without the aid of the British Empire.

[edit] Jabotinsky Medal

I was very surprised that there was no WP article ON THE MEDAL CREATED IN HIS HONOR.

So I've started a STUB on it.
Can I get some help in expanding the article on the Jabotinsky Medal?
Yours truly, Ludvikus 16:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd article

What an odd article! You don't really get any flavour of the guy. There's not even any mention of Petliura, which was a bit of a cause infame at the time. Given the importance of understanding revisionist Zionism in understanding the policies of Likud and similar nationalist groups, it's all a bit odd. Grace Note 04:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Member of the Order of the British Empire?

This article claims that Jabotinsky was awarded the MBE (see intro). Oddly, I couldn't find any other reference to this on the Internet (except, of course, on mirrors of this Wikipedia article). It may or may not be true, but it seems to be, in the current state of the article, an unsourced statement. Can anyone provide a reliable source (for or against the claim)? --- Hillel 15:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I should add that this MBE claim is most likely true, as multiple sources state that he was decorated for barvery by the british around 1918 ([3], [4]). --- Hillel 17:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Camp Jabotinsky

"Today in Upstate New York the militant Jewish Defense Organization runs a training camp named after him called Camp Jabotinsky. There young Jews learn gun training, security and how to protect Jews from attack."

That second line is incredibly biased; there's a militant organization conducting training in upstate New York. Keep in mind that this would be called a madrassa or terrorist training camp if they were Muslim, and it's called "learning to protect" here...

agreed; one shudders to think what really goes on at "Camp Jabotinsky". feel free to do some research & provide a more "encyclopedic" description. Whiskey Pete 01:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
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