Talk:Yvon Chouinard

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Contents 1 Demise of CEqLtd 2 Watch Your Sources 3 Company Name 4 removal of sourced material 4.1 rewritten 5 Book and Article Citations 6 Biography assessment rating comment

[edit] Demise of CEqLtd

I would like to see a paragraph on the demise of Chouinard Equipment and how it became Black Diamond; as well as a brief mention of how Patagonia subsequently came to be. Does anyone have any information?

ANS: I have plenty of information, but I am not clear how relevant that is to Yvon's article. Patagonia preceded the demise of CE by at least 10 years, as I think is clearly stated in the article. Ratagonia 03:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of that information is now in the article on Black Diamond. You could also start an article on Chouinard Equipment, Ltd. Ratagonia 04:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Watch Your Sources

The statement:

"In 1980, climbing had become extremely popular, and the increase in novice climbers were harming the mountains. Chouinard decided to sell his equipment company and focus on his apparel company. (with the source: http://www.fashion-planet.com/sept98/features/earth_watchers/patagonia.html )

while sourced, is factually untrue. Yvon became dis-interested in Chouinard and did not like the direction that climbing was going, but did not sell the company at that time. By 1989 was willing to bankrupt in the face of liability law suits.

My source? Uh, personal communications with people that were there, nothing citable. Ratagonia 00:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Company Name

The company name was Chouinard Equipment, Ltd. at least in the 1989 ski catalog. "Equipment for Alpinists" was the company slogan. Ratagonia 00:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removal of sourced material

Please don't remove sourced material and replace it with original research. It doesn't go with Wikipedia policy on Verifiability and Original research (WP:V and WP:OR. Original Research would include personal conversations with Chouinard that are not verified by a reliable secondary source. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 00:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Your 'source' says:

"But by 1980, climbing had become trendy, attracting too many irresponsible climbers who were harming the mountains, and Chouinard decided he wanted out of the business entirely. He sold the equipment company and concentrated on his fledgling apparel line, striving to make state of the art items such as fleece jackets and the Stand-up Short."

This is factually incorrect. He did not SELL the equipment company, he placed it into bankruptcy in 1989, quite a different thing. See, for example, 'let my people go surfing' page 65 (which we can agree would be the definitive source on this subject). With this factual error, I question the reliability of your source on the previous issues, too. Remember, this is a bouncy fashion magazine, not The New Yorker. I see no evidence in the article that they actually interviewed Yvon or other principles.

Whether Yvon decided he wanted out of the business entirely is beside the point, because he did not act on it until forced to do so in 1989. No specific statement about when he started concentrating on Patagonia is available in 'let my people'. He did not sell Chouinard Equipment to concentrate on patagonia, he just let it muddle along with little oversight.

So - how about this - remove the statement entirely. It is not clearly relevant. Both sources (fashion magazine, and my memory of conversations with people involved) are not reputable. Please edit out the statements as you see fit. Ratagonia 01:25, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it appears that he did sell his assets and stake in the company, and the employees bought them in the bankruptcy proceedings. According to another source, "Faced with lawsuits in 1989 that drove insurance premiums skyward, Chouinard sold off the assets of Chouinard Equipment to a group of employees who moved it to Salt Lake City under the new name Black Diamond."[1]. I do agree with you though, we should reword it. Check the new version. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 03:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] rewritten

Ok I rewrote it. It should be more clear now. I do, however, disagree with your characterization of the source: it's reliable and verifiable just like any other secondary source. In fact, I'd hold it to a higher standard than the New Yorker, which is in large portion an op-ed publication. Finally, though it sounds stupid, the standard for wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Yeah I know, it sounds wrong, but that's just how it is. Since a second source (branded) and a couple others tend to support it, I think it's reliable enough for inclusion. As it's written now, all sides should be satisfied. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 03:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

---

Much better, thank you. However, the Brand article SAYS:

"Faced with lawsuits in 1989 that drove insurance premiums skyward, Chouinard sold off the assets of Chouinard Equipment to a group of employees who moved it to Salt Lake City under the new name Black Diamond"

Yvon (actually, the Chouinard Family Trust) still owns Chouinard Equipment. Now it consists of a bank account and a couple of lawsuits that the lawyers have been told to fight to the last penny, under the supervision of the bankruptcy court. Yvon sold off the ASSETS, but the company still remains. Also, the move to Salt Lake was 1-1/2 years later (Dec 1 1989 to Sept 1 1991) - it makes it sound like it happened immediately.

You have demonstrated what happens when derivative material is re-derived. Errors creep in. Both the Brand article and the Boppy Fashion article are derivative - ie, like you, they read a variety of available sources and write an article based on what they HEARD, rather than what they actually read, and rather than on what is actually true. Check the dates on the earlier stuff in the Brand article, and they are all wrong. You added that Yvon sold his stake, but it was not stated (in this source, at least).

I am glad that there are Wikipedians who consider verifiability to be the prime directive. I believe truth is the prime directive. And in the balance, something of beauty can be found. Ratagonia 03:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I know. It's one of the flaws that we have to live with in the project. Yvon selling his stake is implied, though not explicitly stated. Do you think you could find some sort of copy of the bankruptcy records or the corporation filing papers for Utah? Those would be good references for the article and possibly could give us some new information to add in. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 07:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's not how bankruptcy works. One does not sell one's stake, then put it into bankruptcy. It is put into bankruptcy because the balance sheet goes negative - rarely is anyone interested in buying it. Bankruptcy (ch 11) places the company in receivorship with the court. The court then must approve things done with the assets. The equipment, materials and inventory were sold to Black Diamond. Yvon does not get the money, because it belongs to the creditors (in this case, the people suing). It sits in a bank account until the lawsuits are finished. At that point, if anything is left, it reverts to the stockholders, in this case Yvon's family trust.

Not necessarily. A stockholder can sell his stake, and if there is not enough of the company to credit the debtors, the company can still be placed in Ch. 11.⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 22:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

So, placing it in bankruptcy tells you that his stake was NOT sold - placing it in bankruptcy is an alternative to selling his stake or dissolving the company. My 'beef' is that the 'journalist' from the fashion magazine read through a bunch of press releases and patagonia's website, etc, and paraphrased the information she found. And got it wrong. Let's not do the same.

I have searched the Internet a few hours looking for sourcing on this material. but, it all happened in 1989/1990 before the Internet was a big thing. These transactions were also private, so there was not much press on it (if any), and articles in the outdoor industry talked about the positives (a new company, etc.) rather the details of the murk. I am Black Diamond's 2nd, non-Chouinard employee, so I have the full story (the founding myth) from the principles of BD, but am not a friend of Yvon, merely an admirer. So, there is stuff I KNOW.

I suggest you consider carefully the validity of 'sources'. Interviews, valid 'journalistic' news sources, etc are good; but industry magazines and non-journalistic magazines, that regurgitate derivitive sources, are not "Good Sources" and should be treated with skepticism. The Branding business magazine too. Look at the dates in the article, and they are entirely wrong. Therefore, any 'facts' in the Branding article are suspect, because some of the 'facts' that are easily cross-checked are wrong.

anyway. too much wiki-stress for me. Ratagonia 19:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's really a non issue. The latest version looks awesome. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 22:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Book and Article Citations

I added a citation for Climbing Ice. I chose the later, Random House publication because the first publication by sierra club books does not include an ISBN. Ratagonia 20:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Jreferee 20:49, 28 February 2007 (UTC)