Talk:Yuz Asaf

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I've now merged this article with information from Alleged tomb of Jesus. --G Rutter 10:04, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From VfD:

NPOV problems, and it just... seems wrong (especially with the tourism advertising link). DS 21:51, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

• Keep, file on cleanup. "NPOV problems" is not a valid criterion for deletion: Wikipedia:Deletion policy lists "Article is biased or has lots of POV" in the "Problems that don't require deletion" section. The article is stubby and requires wikification, so cleanup is the place for it. With regards as to whether there is such a belief, there appear to be a nontrivial number of people who believe this, and the matter is discussed in a number of published books, including Jesus' Tomb in India (ISBN 0895819465), Saving the Savior: Did Christ Survive the Crucifixion? (ISBN 0895819465), and Jesus died in Kashmir (amazon.com). The name Yuza Asif, or a variant of that spelling, appears to be common in this context. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:03, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• Keep. Should be moved to Yuza Asaf though. Then inlude a NPOV or clean-up message. Yardcock 22:15, Aug 15, 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, and link from Bible conspiracy theories and, if I recall rightly, Erich von Daniken (or was that Moses that he thought went to Kashmir? Whatever.) - Mustafaa 17:34, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)
• Keep, I found it pretty interesting... wikipedia seems to be the place for this type of stuff.
• Keep. Just needs expanding.
• Keep, although the speculative nature of the article should be made more clear.
• Keep. This is a legitimate article!

end moved discussion

Contents 1 Reversions 2 Page move 3 Non-secular scholarly POV 4 Recent edits 5 Deletion 6 About the Name 7 About The Name

[edit] Reversions

I've edited this section to re-include my initial comment and to include the relevant information that was left in three different versions by anon. I've deleted the personal attacks and digressions- these are still available through the page history. --G Rutter 15:30, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted this page again, because the additions make the article much less readable. User:Jammupress if you'd like to discuss the extra info and what you think is wrong with the current article here on the talk page and then I'm sure we'll be able to include your suggestions in the article. Thank you! --G Rutter 22:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

JUST FORGET IT (Glad I don't have a PhD). Do whatever you wish. I've stated the corrections below. Now you're talking about joining some discussion that there isn't even a place to join. This is the only place where I can post anything.

How clearer can it get that, for some reason, you're stalling? I mean, c'mon. I've explained this in various ways. You have the corrections right here--below. What do you want?

You're just repeating the same rant without any explanation. In my original revision I supplied concrete references--the current article doesn't. It makes blanket, unsubstantiated claims.

When you were writing your dissertation, were you allowed to do that?

You have Hazrat Ahmad writing a book that he NEVER WROTE. He didn't write that book, Negaristan-i-Kashmir.

1. GHULAM AHMAD DID NOT GIVE THE NAME 'YUZ ASAF' TO THE OCCUPANT OF THE ROZA BAL. The name was known long before Ghulam Ahmad was even born. This is just an incredibly bad mistake, and makes you guys look really bad. It appears that whoever wrote this article read information about Yuz Asaf and then got things thorougly mixed up.

2. GHULAM AHMAD DID NOT EVEN WRITE THE BOOK, NEGARISTAN-I-KASHMIR. Why does the person who wrote the article not give references for what he claims?

3. GHULAM AHMAD DID NOT MENTION THE NAME 'MARJAM,' or any other name, regarding the woman that Yuz Asaf is said to have married. The man's entire book is on the Internet, for free. You can go there, hit your Ctrl-F keystroke, type the name, 'Marjam' and see what comes up--NOTHING. You can read the man's entire book at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/1340/jesus_in_india.htm

4. The title of the article, Yuz Asif, is wrong. The name is Asaf (note the 'a'), not Asif.

I've made a start to making the changes you suggest. Please don't make personal attacks. I've also requested that the page be moved to Yuz Asaf. --G Rutter 08:37, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for what you perceived as personal attacks. I would have done the exact same thing had an orthodox Muslim claimed that Ghulam Ahmad assigned the name Yuz Asaf to Jesus. I have attacked both groups. I also object to the followers of Ghulam Ahmad who don't allow the subject to have it's own existence outside of their particular doctrines, though I fully understand their right to do so, and how important it is to them.

My point is that what is stated is as accurate as possible. That's it.

I do hope that you reconsider the article that I submitted. The name correction is good. But the other corrections are more important and more substantive. You can check with other sources if you wish, of course. One is the TOJ website ( www.tombofjesus.com ). At least two of the people there, I think, can answer most questions.

It's a fascinating theory.

One last thing: I don't say this for any ego reasons. But, the article I submitted would give Wikipedia perhaps the best and most conscise summary about Yuz Asaf available on the web. There's more, of course, but I tried to keep the article as brief as possible, so that a reader could get through it quickly, yet leave feeling "full."

But, it's up to you.

I've made some more changes and added some more info. Thank you for leading me to improve this article. However, the reasons I twice reverted your article still remain. (See this version for anyone following this discussion). In your version of the article you only include one Point of View - you don't discuss skeptical views or alternative beliefs, like the belief that Yuz Asaf married Marjam. Furthermore, you include unverifiable statements (for example, you argue that many Israelis visit the tomb, but conducting a Google search I couldn't find this- only that lots of Israelis visit Kashmir, but nothing saying they visit the tomb). You also don't include any links to other articles in Wikipedia and include three links to the tomb of Jesus website, which, especially given your connections (You are I think Salahuddin, author of Saving the Savior and connected to the tomb of Jesus website?), could be interpreted by some as spam (however honestly they were placed).

I hope that you understand why I don't think your version was suitable. If you disagree then Wikipedia offers a number of ways of Resolving disputes- perhaps Wikipedia:Third opinion? --G Rutter 08:29, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, it's somewhat astonishing that you could not find any mention of Israelis visiting the alleged tomb of Jesus (Yuz Asaf), claiming that you found mention of their visit to Kashmir, but not to the tomb. Really?

I, on the other hand, performed a search [GOOGLE] using the most obvious key words: "Israelis visit tomb in Kashmir." Guess what? The very first return was the following: http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040912-014318-5373r.htm .

The very first paragraph of the article says the following:

"New Delhi, India, Sep. 12 (UPI) -- Israeli citizens were flocking to the Indian cities of Jammu and Kashmir Sunday to see the graves believed to be those of Jesus Christ and Moses."

Sir, you will note the word "flocking." Note it, sir. Sir, you will also note that the paragraph says that not only do they visit Kashmir, but they specifically visit the alleged tomb of Jesus (Yuz Asaf), as well as the alleged tomb of Moses (see Kaiser's book, Kersten's book, other books).

Not only that, the news item was released by United Press International. I mean, it's like the biggest international news agency, right? Along with Associated Press International. This was a simple search.

Yet, when I criticize you for apparently not having the ability to perform basic research, you tell me it's a "personal attack." Was it? Was it a personal attack, or a statement of fact? I already knew the articles were there, sir. But I went to Google anyway, right after I read your claim, and did the most simple search--right off the bat. It didn't take 9 searches, which I already knew. It appears that you've proven my point, doesn't it? We're not talking about visiting an old, dusty library in a corner somewhere. This was Google--a simple search. The very first returns.

Regarding Marjam, I have no problem with that. So why are you bringing it up? I was not expecting you to entirely replace the current article with mine. No problem with Marjam being included, except that you have incorrectly claimed that Marjam was mentioned by Ghulam Ahmad. That is simply a fat mistake, sir. Contact members of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam, the group Ghulam Ahmad founded, and simply ask their officials if Ghulam Ahmad ever mentioned Marjam.

The astonishing thing, sir, is that you stubbornly keep mis-information [the Soviets called it dis-information] in the article, apparently out of a stubborn pride. Just admit that you've made some bad errors.

As regards your other comments, I think the above pretty much sums it up. So, I think Wikipedia needs to be honest with itself and examine the rest of my article, in light of your apparent unwillingness to admit the truth.

Incidentally, you're incorrect about my associations. But let me ask you this: Whatever my associations are or are not, does it change the fact that you have made a mistake regarding the Israeli visits to Kashmir? Regarding the mention of Marjam by Ghulam Ahmad? Regarding the incorrect claim that Ghulam Ahmad authored a book that was authored by somebody else, not him?

And I must again attempt to convince you to change something else: Ghulam Ahmad did not "give" the name Yuz Asaf to Jesus. Sir, this is another awfully bad mistake.

The Kashmiri people themselves, long before Hazrat Ahmad was born, have believed that Yuz Asaf is Jesus. Not all of them, but a good number of them have beleived this. By stating that Ghulam Ahmad gave the name Yuz Asaf to Jesus, you imply that before the advent of Ghulam Ahmad, no one associated Yuz Asaf with Jesus. Mistake, sir.

Yes, I have made mistakes- including the Israeli one clearly. However, I'm not sure you've read the latest version of the article, as I've corrected or clarified those things you've mentioned. For example, the first sentence includes both Ahmadiyya Muslims and others. The belief about Marjam is in a separate paragraph and begins "Other beliefs about Yuz Asaf", therefore clearly differentiating it from Ghulam Ahmad's beliefs. Please let me know what you think of the current version and if you think anything needs to be changed. --G Rutter 14:06, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

You said, "... includes both Ahmadiyya Muslims and others."

But neither Ahmadis nor "others" gave the name of Yuz Asaf to Jesus. Nobody gave Jesus that name. By phrasing it that way, it gives the impression that some individual arbitrarily gave Jesus this name.

In my opinion, it would be more accurate to state something like the following [however you wish to word it]: "Some documents claim that Yuz Asaf and Jesus are one and the same person"]

The theory itself states that it was Jesus himself who adopted that name, when he left Nisibis (Nasibain), or Damascus, as a means of escaping the borders of the then Roman Empire by disguising himself--adopting a different name. That is the theory.

So, you could say [however you wished, if you felt like it], that the theory states that Jesus adopted the name Yuz Asaf. Again, Yuz Asaf is not a name that anyone gave him. It is a name that both oral and written tradition states that Jesus himself adopted.

If you don't like that, then you could say instead that some people speculate that he adopted the name. I think that the idea is to be fair to the theory, and avoid giving the impression that you're trying to fix a point in time when Jesus was "given" the name. I don't think you want to give the impression of taking sides. Maybe you don't see it that way. But, believe me, that's how it looks.

And, yes, I did notice the change. But, as I said, the language you used implies something that is not the case.

Done. Glad you liked the other changes. --G Rutter 20:32, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. This may be a minor point, but I have another little opinion here. But it's not something that I feel has to be changed. But I just want to register my opinion, that's all.

The article is entitled Yuz Asaf. But right off the bat it speaks of Hazrat Ahmad and the Ahmadiyya Movement. It is true that were it not for Hazrat Ahmad and his Movement, knowledge of Yuz Asaf might not have come forward--at least not in the manner that it has, considering the energy that that Movement has put into the subject for well over 100 years.

But, even so, I don't understand how Hazrat Ahmad is the first mention in your article. The link between Hazrat Ahmad and Yuz Asaf is not primary, except within the religious cosmology of Ahmadi Muslims with regards to the claims of Hazrat Ahmad [If Yuz Asaf is Jesus, then Jesus didn't die and go to heaven; he's not coming back; so now Hazrat Ahmad can claim to be the 'return of Jesus,' in the spirit, etc., etc. All that is religious, surrounding the personal claims of Hazrat Ahmad, and the foundational beliefs of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.]

I would have mentioned Hazrat Ahmad later in the article, not at the very beginning. That's why I wrote the article as I did, although I went too far by leaving Hazrat Ahmad out altogether [that's only because I was focusing on the figure of Yuz Asaf]. Had the article been about the theory of Jesus in Kashmir, then most certainly Hazrat Ahmad would have to be mentioned first--right off the bat. But that's not what the article is about. It is about Yuz Asaf.

Your readers, I think, expect to read as much as possible about Yuz Asaf. Who was he? Where did he come from? What did he believe? Then, later in the article, you mention Hazrat Ahmad and this controversial issue that he, truthfully speaking, is actually the first one to expand upon in depth; that is, the theory that Yuz Asaf and Jesus are the same person; that Jesus survived the crucifixion, travelled to Kashmir, and lived to a ripe old age.

As I said, though, I guess it's okay the way you have Hazrat Ahmad at the beginning. Maybe it's a minor point. Hope you can think about it. I'm done [I hope!]

I'm afraid that I don't agree with you on this. Like you say, it is due to the Ahmadiyya Movement that Yuz Asaf is known. I think the opening makes it clear that Ghulam Ahmad adopted (and adapted) pre-existing beliefs. The main website is Ahmadi and the Guardians of the Tomb are Ahamdi, so not to make clear the very strong links would, I think, be more confusing to people. --G Rutter 08:04, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I had intimate contact with Dr. Fida Hassnain, former Director of Archives, Archaeology, Research and Museums for Kashmir. He lives in Srinagar, the city that houses the tomb of Yuz Asaf.

He told me that the former keepers of the tomb of Yuz Asaf were Ahmadis, but that fundamentalist-oriented sunni Muslims had kicked them out [doctrinal stuff], and replaced them with non-Ahmadis. I have not confirmed whether or not that is true or false, though I seem to recall that Sue Olsson, a woman who travelled there, mentioned that the tomb is no longer under the control of this family of Ahmadis. I don't know how you verify your information, but I assume that you have checked. I think, though, the information you have about the Ahmadi keepers of the Roza Bal is outdated.

I'm not sure what website you're talking about as being controlled by Ahmadis, if that's what you were saying. I know that the official Ahmadi website is www.alislam.org . If you're talking about the Tomb of Jesus Christ Website, you can check there and you'll see where Sue Olsson, a non-Ahmadi, is an officer that site.

Arif Khan is another officer, and he doesn't hide the fact that he's an Ahmadi. His stance is decidedly open, and he explores Buddhist interpretations and other ideas. I don't think that it should be assumed [and perhaps you weren't doing that] that there's something questionable here, just because an Ahmadi happens to take interest in this theory and is also tied to his religious movement.

But, I'm not sure what you're saying. Also, there are other non-Ahmadi sites, such as Dr. James Deardorff's site, that talk about the issue.

The subject, over the last number of years, has definitely moved well beyond the bounds of the Ahmadiyya Movement. It's an independent study now. In that sense, your emphasis on the Ahmadiyya Movement and Hazrat Ahmad seems a little outdated. Just my opinion.

Well, nuf said. Hope you continue to improve the article. Thanks for the changes.

I've added a sentence making explicit the links to the New Age movement. If you can provide a source for the replacement of the Ahmadis as Guardians I'll obviously update the info. --G Rutter 15:32, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

TO MR. RUTTER: I'll try to find the information about the current keepers of the tomb. It's hard to find time to do so, so I might not come up with anything for you. But I'll try. It might even take some months.

TO MR. RUTTER: The article describes the Rozabal as a Muslim shrine:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad also supports the belief that Yuz Asaf is buried in the Rozabal Muslim shrine

Just wondering why it's described as a Muslim shrine. The occupants of that tomb include two people: Yuz Asaf and Syed Nasirruddin, if I'm recalling the name right. Nasirruddin was a 17th century Muslim, as I recall, who fell in love with the memory of Yuz Asaf; that is, with the traditions that he knew concerning Yuz Asaf.

When Nasurriddin was alive, he asked (because of that love) that he be buried near Yuz Asaf when he died. So, there are two people inside the Rozabal, and you'll see two facade caskets inside [the real casket of Yuz Asaf is underground].

Others believe that Buddha is buried there. Not asking you to change anything. Just providing information.

I think the phrase "Muslim shrine" is accurate - see the definition at Shrine. It is supposed to contain the body of a man who is venerated by at least certain Muslim branches- as shown by your information on the burial of Nasirruddin and the keepers of the tomb.

Any information you get on the current keepers would be interesting- although it will need to be verifiable. That is, published in a newspaper or reputable website or similiar. Thanks! --G Rutter 12:51, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

United Press International] is a minor news agency outside the US. Reuters & AFP are the two main global news agencies. Note that UPI is owned by the Unification Church. matturn 06:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

User:Jammupress believes that Yuz Asaf is a better transliteration of the name and I support him. --G Rutter 08:37, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

On the moving the article issue, is their any controversy over moving the article from Yuza Asif to Yuz Asaf, or is this one of those 'it's just misspelled' times? If there's no controversy, I'll go ahead and move it, with no need for people to vote on it. Lachatdelarue (talk) 00:58, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's more or less a misspelling- no one's arguing against it! Thanks! --G Rutter 08:06, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Non-secular scholarly POV

All of the references I've seen so far - discuss the issue about Jesus' alleged tomb in Kashmir from a religious/theological POV - Christian, Ahmadiyya, Muslim, New Age - and applaud or reject the theories surrounding the tomb on that basis.

In a Wikipedia article, one would also expect to se the point of view of secular historians and archeologists as to the age and origins of the legends surrounding the shrine. This aspect is rather lacking at present.

[edit] Recent edits

One editor, User:Kashmir2 has made a series of edits to this page which remove information about the Ahmadi beliefs about Yuz Asaf and are generally supportive of Suzanne Olsson's beliefs. Kashmir2, the Ahmadi are still the largest group who hold beliefs about Yuz Asaf, whilst Olsson's views are not widely supported. Kashmir2, you obviously support Olsson's POV, but it is important to remain neutral when writing articles in Wikipedia. I've therefore re-added some of the discussion about Ahmadi beliefs and reduced the amount of discussion about Olsson. Perhaps it would be better to discuss any further changes to the article here first? --G Rutter 18:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Grutter, Tis not that I "support" Olsson more than Ahmaddis, but the Ahmaddis claims to be the first and only and best authorities on Roza Bal are actually working against progress of the tomb's verification. Their claims should not be the sole basis for the article about Yuz Asaf, especially in view of the hundreds of other researchers and books written on the subject that are neither Ahmaddi nor Muslim. Someone just inserted a line in the Yuz Asaf page that Saleem is one of the current Directors at the tomb. This is false. Saleem was a Director 30 years ago. I added a link to an interview of 30 years ago with Saleem. Hope this helps clarify things.

[edit] Deletion

I removed the following because it is obviously false:

Buddhist writings claims that the tomb was a tomb of Metteyya (Messiah), the fifth advent of Buddha.

Buddhist writings cannot discuss a tomb of Metteyya (who is not the same as the Messiah), because Metteyya is a person in a Buddhist prophecy of the future, and has not yet lived, much less died. RandomCritic 12:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Now I see that an entire paragraph has been included to discuss the Ahmaddi sect book by its founder. Yet the majority opf complaints revolve around this very issue, that too much emphasis has been placed by the Ahmaddis on their founder's claim to exclusivity and originality in discussing the tomb. This entire paragrapg about the Ahmadi book should be removed..

I have removed it. I am in total agreement with you about this.

[edit] About the Name

• What does Yuz Asaf mean, anyway?

[edit] About The Name

The name Yuz Asaf means "Son Of Joseph."