Talk:Youngstown, Ohio

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[edit] Cleanup.

This article consists almost entirely of POV content, written as what reads very much like a first-person account, with a lot of commentary and asides. I can appreciate the aesthetic of it, and it's somewhat accurate of my memories of Youngstown, but it's very out of place. This article should stick to the facts and provide some historical and modern background. I think a lot of it needs rewritten or removed. --Flata 01:04, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that overstates the problem. There are only two sections in which I noticed the problems to which you refer: "Attractions", and "Problems--yet hope". The former needs some work. The latter needs some major work, possibly to the point of scrapping it altogether. At the very least, I'd like to see that latter section be retitled, as it's not quite encyclopedic. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball: We're not here to talk about Youngstown's hopes and aspirations, much as some of us (yes, me too) would like to. -- SwissCelt 06:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The article seems to exaggerate many thing. One looking at this article with no prior knowledge would have thought that Youngstown was a major city, it never was. Also there are a lot of arbitrary things that are mentioned (the number of car dealers??).--UltraSkuzzi 00:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there are some odd emphases in places, and I also agree with SwissCelt that the two cited sections need some NPOV editing. But I don't quite see why UltraSkuzzi feels this article is misrepresenting Youngstown as a "major city", whatever that might mean. (I know that 30 years ago it was Ohio's 8th largest in population, in one of the country's most populous states, so it was certainly a significant city, but far from a New York, Chicago or Los Angeles, of course.) The best remedy for any perceived bias is to examine questionable information, ask for sources, eliminate it if no source can be found, and rewrite it more neutrally if sourceable. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, I suppose that depends on the definition of "major city". In its heyday (i.e. the first half of the 20th century), Youngstown was perhaps as much a major city as Newark, New Jersey or Anaheim, California are today, owing primarily to Youngstown's location near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania (then the nation's sixth largest metropolis) and its importance as a steel manufacturing center. In 1930, Youngstown was the 45th largest city in the United States[1], with a population greater than that of Hartford, Connecticut, Nashville, Tennessee, and even San Diego, California. Its population of 170,002 ranked 7th in Ohio, a position it held until supplanted by Parma, Ohio. (Correction to Jeff Q: Youngstown is presently the 8th largest city in Ohio. 30 years ago, it was 7th.) That Youngstown now has less than half the population it did 70 years ago (and, in fact, just 50 years ago) is rather a notable fact, and thus the article should reflect that fact in some ways other than merely listing its historical census counts. -- SwissCelt 05:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Well, since my 7th-grade Ohio History teacher couldn't possibly have been wrong, I must be misremembering the material. [sigh] I would suggest we expand the History section to incorporate some of the Industry information, in a sort of "rise and fall and recovery" flow which would be more useful and entertaining reading. I'm not close enough to (or, I admit, interested enough in) the material to do it myself, but others may find this an edifying exercise. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:25, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Warner Brothers

This article currently claims that "the Warner Brothers [were] born in New Castle, PA and relocated to Youngstown for show business". However, the WB article doesn't really provide much information about this, and upon examining the stub articles on Harry Warner, Albert Warner, Sam Warner, and Jack Warner, I found that:

  • Harry and Albert were born in Poland.
  • Jack was born in Canada.
  • Sam was born before Jack.
  • The family moved from Poland to Canada to the US.

I conclude from this that Sam was either born in Poland or Canada, and that none of them were born in New Castle. Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, we should removed this claim of their origin. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I concur that the Warner Brothers were not born in New Castle. However, the Warners' first theater was indeed in New Castle. The Harry M. Warner Film Institute at Slippery Rock University makes this claim: "Harry, along with his three younger brothers, opened the first Warner Theatre in nearby New Castle, PA in 1907." [2] I'm not sure, however, how Youngstown fits into the picture (if at all). -- SwissCelt 05:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I've done some rephrasing to reflect the information above. I also moved the "famous Youngstowners" section down near the bottom, as this information is somewhat trivial. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The Warner Brothers opened one of their first theaters in Youngstown and lived outside the city for many years. I think that is what several people meant. They are by no means Youngstowners and I think too many of the people listed deserve to be removed since they in fact did not live, grow up in, or were born, in the city of Youngstown. Person 1: "Where are you from?" Person 2: "Youngstown." Person 1: "Ohh, you mean Boardman?" Daysleeper47 (talk) 12:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The Warner Brothers did live in Ytown, their house is on the corner of Gypsy Lane and (maybe Selma?) on the Northside. I cant remember exactly which side street it is. Plus, Powers auditorium used to be the Warner Theatre.

[edit] Population decline rate

An anonymous editor recently added the following text:

Youngstown has among the highest rate of population decline of any city its size in the United States, with less than half the population it had at its peak around 1950.

This is an interesting statistic to quote, but only if it's sourced. If it isn't, it should be removed as original research. Does anyone know where this information might be coming from? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Since no one provided a source for this statement, I've removed it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from disambig page

I have just made a series of edits to incorporate material from a rather verbose para on the disambiguation article Youngstown, where it was out of place.

The effect of the changes on this Youngstown, Ohio article can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Youngstown%2C_Ohio&diff=44888259&oldid=43980290

... and the effect of the changes to the Youngstown article can be seen at: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Youngstown&diff=44888957&oldid=38098787

--BrownHairedGirl 02:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with famous Youngstowners section

While fixing a link to Liberty Township, Trumbull County, Ohio, I noticed that one person listed in the "Famous Youngstowners and former 'Steel Valley' residents" section, "MC Homeless", who was cited as a "world-famous Hip Hop artist", does not appear in the All-Music Guide. Google suggests that his notability doesn't extend beyond Northeast Ohio. There are literally millions of such wannabe musicians, but they are rarely considered notable enough for citing in Wikipedia (let alone giving them an article). I have removed this entry, and request that if someone wishes to restore it, they provide a reliable source for such information.

While I'm on the subject, this entire section seems rather prone to abuse. Not one of the entries has a reliable source. Yes, there are Wikipedia links for most of them, but Wikipedia articles are explicitly not considered reliable sources (see WP:RS for details). I concede that there is some encyclopedic value to such a section (even though I've never seen a similar section in any other city article), but the whole section is delete-bait without sources. Can we dig up some references that specifically mention each person's residence in this area? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've gotten the ball rolling by adding some non-printing space between the list items, to make it easier to add references, and adding a {{cite web}} citation for Ed O'Neill's IMDb page. (The <ref> tag markup (the preferred wiki citation method described at Wikipedia:Footnotes) automatically generates a footnote in the References section based on the text provided.) {{cite book}} and {{cite news}} are other useful templates for citations. Each of the templates' talk pages has instructions on how to use them. If anyone has questions about their use, feel free to drop me a note. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
I hate this section. Most of the people aren't actually from Youngstown, but from the Youngstown area. They shouldn't be listed. There are articles for each of these jurisdictions and the Mahoning Valley. I will entertain comments to delete it. --Daysleeper47 14:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MSA

The Columbiana County is No longer a Part of the Youngstown MSA. as shown here.. http://lmi.state.oh.us/maps/MapofMSAs2000.pdf

also, does youngstown No longer extend into Trumbull county?

[edit] Youngstown's nicknames

I've added an {{unreferenced}} tag to this section because it's currently an invitation to add original research; i.e., just slapping in any name one has heard, without bothering to cite a reliable source. An editor did add the following attempt at a "source":

  • {{Linkon and Russo, 2003}}

I've removed it because it fails on several levels:

  • They apparently meant to provide an in-text citation, like "[Linkon and Russo, 2003]", but inexplicably used the wiki template syntax, which is not for parenthetical information, but for inserting information that exists in special pages elsewhere in Wikipedia. (One should never save edits without examining them using "Show preview", which would have made this error obvious.)
  • In-text "Harvard references" like "[Linkon and Russo, 2003]" make no sense unless they are associated with footnotes, previous citations, and/or a bibliography. (See Wikipedia:Harvard referencing for more details on how to use this system.) Note that Harvard referencing is more commonly used in scholarly works, which does not fit this article's current (or likely future) content. Besides, it's already using the Wikipedia:Footnotes citation form, which provides a link to source information without significant disruption to the text.
  • In order to make any reference citation complete, one must fully describe the work somewhere. "[Linkon and Russo, 2003]" is incomplete.

I hope that someone familiar with this work, or with other sources for these nicknames, can fill in the missing information. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Since people keep stubbornly removing the unreferenced tag for the nickname section without adding proper sources for the information in it, I deduce that we have no editors interested in citing sources for this information. I have therefore removed it. Please do not re-add information on Youngstown's alleged nicknames unless and until one has sources for each and every one included. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:13, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Information

  • Serious* additions must be made to account for Youngstown's past and CURRENT inviolvement in organized crime. This has not a thing of the past. The FBI has an ongoing presence there for a reason. Also, the Avanti car company isn't mentioned, nor is Phar-Mor. The first was a custom car company which was a front for money laundering. The second was a successful discount drug-store chain that even hosted a LPGA tournment in Warren. It went bust in the 90s due to corruption. Margaraeta 19:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Youngstown

I started Wikipedia:WikiProject Youngstown in order to better organize articles related to Youngstown. Please join me!--Daysleeper47 17:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Categories

I've removed Category:Western Reserve from articles on municipalities and townships already in a subcategory of Category:Western Reserve for their county. This makes the category more prominent for people, schools, and historical articles. For example, I removed Category:Western Reserve from Streetsboro, Ohio, because it is already in Category:Portage County, Ohio. I suggest we do the same thing for Youngstown, since it is in Category:Mahoning County, Ohio. I would have done this myself, but since this article is edited by many people I didn't want to offend anyone. Would anyone disapprove removing Category:Western Reserve from this article? --DangApricot 20:00, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime?

My memories of YOungstown were that it was a crime ridden place with more Ak-47 fire than Montenegro. Is this accurate, and if so, doesn't it merit mention? 88.153.86.210 19:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

88.153.86.210, you and Margaraeta above in "Missing Information" raise an important issue. As with the many nicknames that I earlier removed (which included "Murdertown, USA", which I recall was mentioned in an episode of City Confidental, a crime documentary TV series), we have plenty of editor recollections, but no sources. I am certain there are sources for such information; the challenge is in digging them up, reading them for actual verifiable material, composing text that summarizes the information, and citing the specific references. I don't have it handy, but I can at least give interested editors a citation for the CC episode, if someone can mine it for information:
  • City Confidential, "Youngstown: Mob Hits and Misses" [5.12], 2003-07-30
Wikipedia articles are the work of the willing, and one should not be surprised that Youngstown fans are reluctant to exert themselves to document this unpleasant topic (although as editors, we should strive to present a balanced, thorough view of our subjects). For those who do wish to write about a sensitive subject, it is vital to collect and review the sources before adding the material, lest other editors reasonably remove it for being unsourced. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I decided to check out the cryptic "[Linkon and Russo, 2003]" citation I mentioned above in "Youngstown's nicknames", and found the following book that seems to be the likely citation (despite a year difference):
  • Linkon, Sherry Lee; John Russo (2002). Steeltown U.S.A.: Work and Memory in Youngstown. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas, 288 pp.. ISBN 0700611614. 
Someone may want to scare up a copy of this to glean more sourced information (criminal and otherwise) on Y-town. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
That is definetly the book. I have a copy although I haven't read it yet. If I get around to it in the near future, I will add some citations.--Daysleeper47 11:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I added a citation to the passage on Youngstown's reputation for crime and corruption (in the "Challenging old verities" section"). Unfortunately, the citation lacks page numbers. If anyone has a copy of the New Republic issue with the cover story on Youngstown ("The town that fell in love with the mob"), please add the page numbers. Thanks. ~ haeksang 13:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I can't find the print edition, but I actually added that article to my blog several years ago. It can be found here [3] --Daysleeper47 19:03, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! Nice blog! I think Youngstown's main library has a copy of the original article in its crime files. I'll look for it the next time I'm there. ~ haeksang 14.55 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I've added the page number and corrected the date (July 10, not 7), based on the article's listing in the InfoTrac OneFile database provided through my library. (I also reformatted the citation so it can be more readily distinguished from the text, as well as reused if desired.) ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, there is the Morgan Quitno Awards, which ranked Youngstown the 9th most dangerous city in the United States in its 2006 report. -- SwissCelt 04:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

While I was looking up the New Republic citation above, I found a poignant and disturbing reference to Youngstown's criminal justice system, in another Clines New York Times article:

  • Clines, Francis X.. "Imprisoned fathers tell their children: don't follow in our footsteps", The New York Times, July 2, 2000, pp. 9-10. Retrieved on 2007-02-15. “Their laughter never made it outside to this gray city of burned-out steel mills. Youngstown is quietly becoming the prison capital of a nation that, to use Dominique's hard-learned word, is now the world leader in incarceration. Five prisons operate here with about 40,000 inmates; two more are on the way. Many of the prisoners are young fathers with plenty of time to ponder long lists of regrets, with their children, often little known and less seen, at the top of those lists. In this prison, there is even a class on being a parent for clueless fathers.”

I don't know if this info has any place in the article (we want concision), but I quote it here just in case. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the quote is referring to the Northeast Ohio Correctional Center, and the article features a inmate from New York City and mentions its intake of 1,300 prisoners from a now-closed Lorton, Virginia prison. So that's not 40,000 people just from the Youngstown area! In fact, the story has a largely positive feel because it's about parents serving time who are trying to reconnect with their children. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for upgrading the citation on the New Republic article! You raised an important point when you mentioned Youngstown's role as a center of privately run prisons, a situation compounded by the fact that it's also the site of the Ohio Penitentiary. I agree that space restrictions prevent any real discussion of this topic in the main article. A brief reference to the prison issue (even a sentence or phrase) could be inserted into the "Challenging old verities" section. I suspect further discussion would need to be reserved for a separate article that links to the main article.~ haeksang 10:57 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm afraid you're right. I see 76.212.224.56 (talk • contribs) took a stab at a single sentence, but then removed it, probably because it's hard to fit it into the flow of the section. Anything beyond a bare, out-of-place addition seems to require something like unsourced opinion (e.g., how the prison affects Y-town's reputation). Oh, well. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a reference to the prison situation, but it's understated. (I believe the Clines article you mentioned was also cited.) Given that the prison issue, along with the problem of organized crime, has a high profile, it deserved at least a mention in the main article. I agree with you, however, that the article can't sustain much more. As I think you were implying, a separate article on this issue might be worthwhile.~ haeksang 10.45 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hospitals

I'm looking to work in a paragraph or small section on the hospital sector in Youngstown. There has been a lot of change there in the last 10 years which might be worth noting. Any ideas on where to work it in? --Daysleeper47 14:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The hospitals are definitely worth mentioning, given that many expanded their services to meet the needs of an aging population and some were later forced to downsize or even close. One possibility would be to create a small section called "Health care" (or "Hospitals") and place it between "Schools" and "History." haeksang 19:02, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganization and History

I reorganized the article to comply with the template as set by WP:CITY. I also noticed that the history section ends with an awkward statement about the railroad. I feel we need some additional information on the history of the city. If anyone can help out, that would be great! --Daysleeper47 20:10, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The reorganization looks great, but I think one issue merits discussion. The history section ends awkwardly because the passage titled "Demographic diversity" was removed and placed in the demographics section. In many ways, this seems logical. The passage that was removed, however, discusses the area's diversity in historical and anecdotal terms. It makes no reference to statistical data. Any historical overview is bound to mention subjects that are discussed in greater detail elsewhere in the article. If we were to remove all references to Youngstown's industrial development from the history section and place them under business and industry, there would be little history left to discuss. In the same vein, it seems appropriate to mention the community's diversity in the history section, without getting into numbers and percentages. Changing the title of this section from "Demographic diversity" to "Peopling of the Valley" might avoid any confusion about its purpose.haeksang 05:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
You are correct, although personally I find the phrase "Peopling of the Vally" to be awkward. "Peopling" just isn't a word one hears everyday. --Daysleeper47 16:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The sub-head is drawn from the title of a locally published book called, The Peopling of the Mahoning Valley. Frankly, I'm not sold on it, either. If someone would develop an alternative sub-heading, I'd appreciate it. --haeksang 19:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article status?

This article has been nominated for FA, but there have been some concerns about the references. "The Demographics section needs references, as does Post-steel economy and Transportation. Web references are incorrectly formatted and are just blue URL's, they need a title, publisher (website you got it from) author and date if applicable and date last accessed, {{cite web}} template can help with this."

There were other suggestions as well, which were easy to fix. I'm going to need some help on the references though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.31.150.212 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I've started some citation reformatting, including:
  • Using {{cite web}}, {{cite book}}, and {{cite news}}
  • Converting inline citations to multiline indented to make it easier to distinguish the citations from the article text
  • Naming all "ref" tags to allow combinations (and combining a few)
  • Quoting all ref-tag names for XHTML compliance (why not, while we're at it?)
  • Marking a Vindicator citation with "(UNSPECIFIED ARTICLE)" (we need an article title for proper sourcing)
  • Tagging a broken link to the Youngstown & Mahoning County Visitors Bureau's website and adding an access date from Internet Archive's most recent copy
I've got to stop for now, but for those who want to help but don't know how to do this, please look at the changes I made in the edit history and the final results to see how to do these things. I'm happy to answer any questions on my talk page. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:19, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
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