Talk:Yona Metzger

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I think it's rather bizarre that pages on rabbis should comprise >50% "controversy". This is really not the way we should be presenting these people. A lot of this stuff can be condensed down or merged with other relevant pages. Alternatively, the "positive" section of the article should be expanded to provide balance.

I asked ShalomShlomo (talk • contribs) to list Metzger's works. Just saying that he wrote "several books" is not in proportion to the long paragraphs on the controversy surrounding his election and "criminal allegations". JFW | T@lk 12:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• JFW- Not having read the books, I really don't consider myself in a position to say much about them. (Would YOU care to add anything?) If the page is mostly about negative controversy surrounding Metzger, it's more a result by default than intent. There simply isn't that much information available about Metzger, both in terms of background and present activities. He was relatively unknown (or rather, undistinguished, in comparrison to some of his peers in the Chief Rabbinate) before his election. Furthermore, he doesn't seem to have done that much news-worthy stuff in the past two years. I'd be happy to include more stuff if I could find it. Feel free to point me to places and I'll add it. Google Yona Metzger and see what comes up- it's scandal, scandal, Armenians. To Metzger's (and my) credit, I did try to add quite a bit of stuff regarding his ongoing involvement with the Armenian communities. I will continue to look for more stuff in the next few days, but would prefer not to be chastized if nothing comes up.

If other people have more information they'd like to contribute, I'm all in favor of it. However, :it's a bit unfair to criticize people for not having enough positive material on rabbis when most of :the "common knowledge" about them tends towards negative press. I can't do anything about that, and :if the choice is between having two sentences saying, "Metzger served in the army and was born in :Haifa" and having a detailed page that is mainly about news-worthy, if critical, incidents about :him, I'm going to tend towards the latter. Better that people be irritated at a perceived "slant" :and work to change it than that there be nothing there (to say nothing of the potential-censorship :issue).

The only alternative to the present situation is to either get more people with knowledge about :Metzger to contribute (hint), or to delete the controversial components in order to have the article :be as bare-bones as possible. Obviously, I'm not really in favor of the latter, but until the former :happens, I don't see any way around the current state of the page.

Interested in your thoughts. ShalomShlomo 12:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

• JFW- Added more info; trying to help contribute towards the positive (or at least neutral) aspect. Feel free to add to it. ShalomShlomo 13:11, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

ShalomShlomo, my criticism was not specifically aimed at you but I'm glad you've expanded the positive side. I'm not a specific supporter of Metzger and know little about him, but it is not "censorship" to tone down all the criticism a bit to let a fuller non-critical picture of the man emerge. Negativity is easy to find, and apparently Metzger has a bit of an image problem in the press. Wikipedia should work towards balance and WP:NPOV - in my view providing the positive aspects is part of adhering to NPOV. JFW | T@lk 15:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

JFW- Thanks for the clarification. I agree that NPOV should be the goal but it can be difficult when the majority of the information easily available is slanted towards the negative. But hey, it's a work in progress; I'll keep looking for more info and in the meantime, if there's anything you (or someone else you feel might have something valuable to contribute,) want to add anything, feel free. I'll also take a look at the controversial bits (specifically the election part) and see if I can't whittle that down a bit. The goal with that was mainly to give enough background to the lay reader for them to understand why Metzger's election, whether you agreed with it or not, was a big deal. Perhaps I'll use part of this to create a general information page on Orthodox politics in Israel. ShalomShlomo 23:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fact or analysis

I removed this from the page for discussion here:

However, others have suggested that the perception of Metzger not having a "real base" has in fact hurt his credibility. Many Religious Zionists consider Metzger to have "sold out" to the haredim, and the haredim by and large do not consider Metzger to be a legitimate member of their community. The fact that he was not of high standing among either group prior to the election has not helped his prestige.

Without a solid source it is very hard to sustain a paragraph like this. I have no doubts that a source can be found, but in the meantime it is original research. JFW | T@lk 21:47, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

JFW- So, are you saying we sould find a source for it and put it back in, or just leave it out? ShalomShlomo 07:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That is not my point. My point is that it is presently lacking a source. If a solid source is presented I don't see why this cannot be included. JFW | T@lk 22:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)