Talk:Yom Kippur

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Contents 1 Christian terms. 2 Avodah Service 3 WikiProject Holidays 4 "heathen" nations? 5 Kol Nidre clarification 6 Big update 7 Azazel 8 Significance 9 remove date section 9.1 When is Yom Kippur? 10 External link: Ritualwell.org 11 the most holy day? 12 Bicycles. 13 Untane Tokef / Rabbi Amnon of Mainz 14 Greeting. 15 Temple Service? 16 Remembering the Temple service 17 Yom Kippur War 18 Christian belief

[edit] Christian terms.

Should Bible be replaced with Torah, and "Hebrew Bible" with "Tanakh"? Are there some articles that should use "G-d" instead of "God"? -- Jeandré, 2004-09-24t19:33z

Bible, in this article, is probably synonymous with "Hebrew Bible" and "Tanakh". Please note that "Torah" only comprises the first five books of the Bible. I would discourage use of "G-d". This is a practice reserved for print, to allow for discarding it after use without destroying God's name. JFW | T@lk 11:43, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I say do it, so long as you explain what they mean in Secular terms. The idea is to have this article look like a Jew wrote it, how he or she would write it. HereToHelp 20:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

re: "G-d". The way I have seen it explained is that it is not written out anyplace where it might be destroyed in some manner. This usually includes electronic messageboards and email (deletion = destruction), but it may be a matter of individual choice. That being said, however, to do it here would make it harder for non-Jews to read. There's got to be some modern halacha on it, I'm sure, but I'm not sure what the practice is when you're dealing with a general consumption text as opposed to a text with a purely Jewish audience. MSJapan 00:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should bible be replaced with Torah. That is very disrespectful. Jews call their holy book the Torah, not the Hebrew bible. Christians call their holy book the Bible. The Muslims call their holy book the Koran. Asking that question is like asking whether the term bible should be replaced with torah.

Please sign your entries. I agree with Jeandre, it should be replaced with Torah. That is the Hebrew name. --Jbanning22 14:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Avodah Service

Would there be any merit to adding a section on the Avodah Service? I feel it is relevant since this service on Yom Kippur was the one time in the year when both the Holy of Holies is entered and the Name of God uttered.

[edit] WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Great! Sadly, only a small percentage of the Wiki community know enough to write, although they can always research it. But that puts this in Secular terms; I don't want that. It gives it an "unJewish" feel--se my comment above. HereToHelp 20:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "heathen" nations?

"Heathen" seems like a loaded word, with derogatory connotations, at least in the absence of any explanation of the term. Could it be replaced with something more easily understood, or explained in context? Peter 20:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced it with "other", which is neutral. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kol Nidre clarification

The passage on the Kol Nidre is unclear for those who are not already familiar with it (and, as it stands, gives support to the anti-semitic version). Information from the Kol Nidre article should be summarized by someone familiar with the subject (that person, sadly, is not me) and added to the article.

I removed all related material; only a wikilink remains. Everything will now be on the Kol Nidre page. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Big update

I have added some actual observances and their sources. More are to come. The page suffered from JewishEncyclopedia syndrome and I hope this redresses the balance somewhat. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Azazel

Under The Temple Service there is discussion of the meaning of Azazel without any link. This discussion is a small subset of that which appears under Azazel. My preference would be to rip most of it out and rely on the link, but this seemed like a drastic enough change to warrent discussion. Heptazane (talk • contribs)

Well, the link should be there. It is the subject of much speculation, but this page should contain only a passing mention of the whole thing. JFW | T@lk 01:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Significance

The "Significance" sidebar says, "... and for the Golden calf". Should this be explained in the body?

This certainly should. It is important for the context of the day. This is the day where the second set of tablets were presented to the people at Sinai and our sins during the presentation of the first ones (17th of Tammuz, Golden Calf) were finally expiated, hence, Day of Atonement. This is vital to understanding the original point of the holiday.Valley2city 05:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] remove date section

I have removed the section "date" as it was redundent with the infobox. The average reader would know that a date on the hebrew calander will change every year on the english calander and does not need to be stated. The holiday infobox display the gregorian date and will automaticly change every year. I think that is enough. Jon513 11:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When is Yom Kippur?

It's amazing to me that this article doesn't answer this obvious question in terms comprehensible to English-language readers. I don't know the answer, but surely someone does, and can add it.Timothy Usher 10:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

In the infobox: "Gregorian Date (2006) October 2". -- Jeandré, 2006-08-04t18:47z

[edit] External link: Ritualwell.org

This site is neither commercial nor personal. It is owned by the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, which is on a par with the Jewish Theological Seminary and Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion. Linking to this site is of the same nature as linking to the external links extant for the entry. Funganny July 27, 2006

Wikipedia has a very strict policy regarding placing external links on a page. See Wikipedia:External links to read about these guidelines. If you still think that link belongs after reading the page, explain here why. Jon513 09:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This page is not a good example of what I wish to reference, since it has few external links. Better examples are Sukkot and Pesach. For these holidays and numerous others, the external links which predominate reflect only one segment of Jewish traditions and practice.

Since Judaism doesn’t have a “central authority,” even within Orthodox Judaism, interpretations of law and resulting practices and traditions vary. In adding links to Ritualwell.org, I sought (a) to be respectful of what was written in the main article by not making changes or additions to allow for the other streams of Judaism and (b) to add an additional POV – that of women – since what is otherwise represented is almost exclusively male oriented.

It is worth noting that Ritualwell.org is pluralistic, including traditions ranging from Orthodox to “secular.” A case in point is the JOFA women’s seder, the O and F standing for Orthodox Feminist.

Thank you for your attention to this.

Funganny

There is no need to "respect" what has been written in the article and avoid making changes or additions. Wikipedia is a wiki that anyone can edit and we encourage everyone to be bold and make edits. That being said, you must also be careful to respect wikipedia polices, such as verifiabilty and netural point of view. Realize that to say that the orthodox perpective of Yom Kippur (or torah in general) is male oriented is strongly POV. Therefore to add a perpective of "women" (which women? - not orthodox women) would not make sence. Adding a perpective of reform or reconstructionist however would be welcome. Do not misrepesent Ritualwell. It does not represent traditions "ranging from orthodox to secular"; it represents traditions ranging from reform to secualar [1]. Which again, such perpectives are welcome as long as they are represented as such. If you are not sure if something is NPOV try this useful rule of thumb "An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie. An article is not neutral if, after reading it, you can tell where the author's sympathies lie". Jon513 17:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in nor qualified to reinvent the wheel. That's why I originally added links to ritualwell. I followed your link, above, but saw nothing there to support your statement. That was immaterial to the issue at hand, if not downright gratuitous. Funganny 7 August 2006

[edit] the most holy day?

I've heard equally strong arguments in favor of the Sabbath as being just as holy if not more holy than Yom Kippur. I'll wait a bit before being bold and changing the proclamation in the first paragraph.

Yom Kippur is The Sabbath of the year, anyway you look into it. Do not change the article. Michagal 16:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I would like to debate the affirmation of Yom Kipur being the most Holy Day. This is in fact a common question often asked to jews in study groups (perhaps to challenge their own views of their religion) or to people that is on the path of convertion to Judaism: "What is the most holy/important/sacred day of the year?"

It is a common mistake to answer Yom Kippur. The most important day of the Jewish year IS INDEED the SHABBAT - so much that, if any holidays fall over the Shabbat, the laws of Shabbat observance MUST take priority. If you follow the logic (oy!) if Shabbat takes priority over Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Kol Nidrei, etc. it is therefore the holiest day of the year. Ask any Rabbi (I did) [2] --Pinnecco 12:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Shabbos is indeed higher on the scale than any other holiday. Moreover, there should be something in the Talmud (if not the Tanakh) about it. Therefore, rather than debating it without proof, finding a citation will solve the problem outright. MSJapan 00:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I will make sure I ask my Rabbi to where I can find written information about it so we can put an end to this discussion --Pinnecco 10:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I had the chance to speak with two Rabbis today (Erev Sukot) about this issue: One is Rabbi is from the Reform movement and the other if from the Modern Orthodox movement. Both Rabbis agreed that SHABBAT is indeed the holiest holyday of the Jewish calendar and NOT YOM KIPUR. One compeling argument to support this is that The 10 Commandments says to remmember and keep the Shabbat -- not remmember and keep the Yom Kippur, and Rabbis tend to consider this a very compeling argument. The statement should be ALTERED. --Pinnecco 00:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, one of the Rabbis I consulted is Rabbi Rodney Mariner from the Belsize Square Synagogue in London. He is also the head (Convernor) of the Beit Din for the Reform movement in Great Brittain (the one at the Sternberg Centre). The other Rabbi is from an Orthodox Synagogue close to Chalk Farm, his first name is Michael but I don't remember more because I just met him on a Erev Sukkot dinner. --Pinnecco 08:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I think there is a basic consensus to CHANGE this statement as it is not encyclopedic or verifiable. To every single Rabbi I have talked to and to my own personal study, the Sabbath is more important and holier than Yom Kippur. I usually judge these things based on two criteria: the number of Aliyot and the penalty for violating them. Yom Kippur has 6 aliyot and the penalty is excisement from the Jewish People (or however you define kareit). Though this is both more Aliyot and penalty than any other festival, it is still less than Shabbat on both counts. Shabbat has 7 aliyot and the penalty is death. Yom Kippur is only around because of the Jewish people and they are the ones to sanctify it (hense the prayer order "King of the universe who sanctifies [Shabbat,] Israel and the Day of Atonement. Shabbat is the only holiday that happens because God Himself has sanctified it through Creation and exists even without the Jewish people. Shabbat happens every seventh day no matter what. Yom Kippur can conceivably be postponed by a day or so if the New Moon is not established. Michagal, to say that we should not change the article based on something you have decided is not sufficient. Wikipedia is a fluid and ever-changing enyclopedia and requires information to be verified. In addition people are allowed to change whatever they want and considering this overwhelming support, I think this merits a change. Valley2city 05:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It's fairly common knowledge that while Yom Kippur is the most important of what are accepted as the 12 major "holidays" (see [3]), Shabbat is the holiest day of any week, and thus the year. Many Rabbis will even mention this fact during the Yom Kippur service so as to encourage weekly attendance. Given the consensus here, especially the fact that Pinnecco actually asked two diverse Rabbis about the issue, it's quite clear that the statement should be revised. I've gone ahead and done this, recasting it as "one of the most important days" rather than the single most important day. Dbratton 09:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I got into a very brief discussion about this, and apparently there is a rabbinic consensus that Hoshana Rabbah is the holiest day of the year. It's a little off-topic, but I had never heard this before. Does anyone know what the sources are on this? MSJapan 02:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bicycles.

[Observances among secular Jews?]

“Yom Kippur there has the nickname ‘Festival of Bicycles.’” According to whom?

This is nonsense. Where is the reference for this absurd assertion?

--Lance6968 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I got the source for it and edited it in.

~~

I followed your link; it doesn't justify the quote. At best this is an obscure reference in Israel, but even admitting that much, is, as yet, unjustified.

The practices of secular Jews, I aver, has nothing to do with normative Judaism; that, by itself, raises a reasonable question of why this topic is even in the article.

I would suggest that an entire article on the practices of secular Jews, something quite separate and apart from Judaism, may be an interesting contribution.

--Lance6968 01:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia of Judaism, normative or otherwise. If the content meets notability and verifyability criteria it belongs. For better or for worse, Yom Kippur is the name of a national as well as a religious holiday in Israel. --Shirahadasha 05:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Question: why is this sentence in the Observances among Secular Jews section? "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This is a current event that has no place in an encyclopedia.

130.64.80.155 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[Add a section] Should a section about the fact that many people consider this a non-official no transportation holiday and therefore many people go out with bicycles and such? Is this encyclopedic? Michaelas10 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting phenomenon, but it's already touched on in the Observances among secular Jews section:

In Israel, public non-observance (such as eating or driving a motor vehicle) is taboo. Yom Kippur there has the nickname "Festival of Bicycles," [1] referring to children's practice of freely riding their bicycles in the streets without motor vehicles presenting danger.

Any additional information (which should be limited, given the relative unimportance to the holiday in general) should be added there - an entire additional section is overkill. Dbratton 17:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll merge whenever I can. Michaelas10 18:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I've done merging. I left the verify tag on the merged section. Michaelas10 21:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I removed the verify tag, as the addition is well-cited. Dbratton 09:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't actually think that is technically the case. It is true, at least according to an LA Times article I read a number of years ago, that extremely secular Jews in Israel ride their bikes in the empty streets on Yom Kippur. This probably owes to the fact that almost everyone, even the most unaffiliated "חילוני" Jews are in the Synagogue this one day in the year, and therefore the streets are deserted. I know this true of Jerusalem on any given sabbath, having walked in the middle of the road for many blocks walking to and from the synagogue and meals. As for it being a "a non-official no transportation holiday", Yom Kippur is the only holiday that has almost equal standing with the Sabbath in terms of its work restrictions (You can cook on all the other ימי טוב (Festivals) that fall on weekdays, but all of these traditionally carry prohibitions against riding. I am actually unaware of rules governing bicycles as opposed to things traditionally prohibited riding: animals and automobiles. Valley2city 19:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As I saw it yesterday, the streets were completely filled with people with bicycles, a large part of them did go to the synagogue. I think this does worth a mention, at least a paragraph. I will write it whenever I'll have time. Michaelas10 17:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the section. I've also added a verify tag to the section because I'm not completely sure of what I wrote as I wrote it from a lot of personal knowledge. Please verify the section using online resources and remove the tag. Michaelas10 18:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted a few changes done to the section recently:

• 1. I think getting medical attention the Magen David Adom crews is important since it's different from getting medical attention generally, because getting medical attention from them is immediate and isn't done in the hospital.
• 2. Ground human-powered transport vechicals shouldn't be replaced with human-powered transport vechicals as there are human-powered transport vechicals that work in the sky or in water.
• 3. Don't replace Yom Kipur eve with Kol Nidre, Kol Nidre usually refers to the prayer.
• 4. It gained popularity in all the Jewish communities in the recent decades, not only Israel.

Michaelas10 07:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Your reverts also re-inserted "vechical", which is not a word. It's "vehicle". As for MDA crews, were there any other medical services active, it being Yom Kippur? MSJapan 19:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't note that change when I was reverting, sorry. I don't think there are any other medical services in Israel, well the provided news article didn't state any. Michaelas10 20:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

So, if there was no other option but to receive treatment from MDA, is it really noteworthy of inclusion? On further thought, if electric vehicles are prohibited, is it even noteworthy that people ride bikes and skateboards, considering that one has to get to shul somehow? The accident totals might be an intersting fact to add to the article, but I'm wondering if it deserves a separate section. MSJapan 20:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It will be merged to an other section of the article, see the above comments. Michaelas10 20:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[Relevance of paragraph] I am just curious as the relevance of the following statement: "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This seems completely irrelevant to the topic.

Naugahyde 21:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Untane Tokef / Rabbi Amnon of Mainz

Does anyone agree that Untane Tokef and the legend of its authorship deserves a separate article? Anyway, as it is Erev Yom Kippur as I write this, Gmar Chatima Tova to all. If I have done anything to you or your articles to piss you off in the past year, I apologize. That's right; WikiTeshuva! Valley2city 19:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably does. On a relate note, the quoted part needs to be sourced (which it is not), as it is a translation, and those can vary from Siddur to Siddur. MSJapan 00:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greeting.

Okay, for Christmas you say "Merry Christmas", for Easter "happy Easter". What do you say for Yom Kippur? --Midnighttonight remind to go do uni work! 02:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC) One answer: Have a good fast.68.41.169.186 16:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"Chatimah Tovah" (May you be sealed for good). --Shirahadasha 02:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temple Service?

What are the references for "Service in Temple in Jerusalem?" It seems like an extrapolation from Leviticus, chapter 16 concerning the tent of meeting with some additions which may be conjectural.

The reference has been provided -- Talmud Tractate Yoma. It's in the reference section. Some of the elements (like the number of garment changes and ritual baths, what happens to the goat for Azazel, etc.) are not in Leviticus, and the service is in a slightly different order. This is very standard stuff. A summary of it is in every traditional prayer book. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Remembering the Temple service

What is the reference for this statement: "...most Conservative synagogues, a detailed description of the Temple ritual is recited on the day, and the entire congregation prostrates themselves"(?) The last six words appear to be factually incorrect. Prostrate meaning "to fall down flat on the ground, face down." I have never witnessed this; has anyone? LarG 15:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

Yes and no. There is one part of the service where the congregation has the option to fully genuflect to the floor by bowing fully forward to the floor from a kneeling position; the presence of seats often precludes this. I have seen it demonstrated and explained, but never done. MSJapan 00:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is regularly done in Orthodox synagogues. I did it this morning. It is also done in some traditionalist Conservative synagogues, but not most. "Postration" may be inexact languague, as MSJapan points out it involves falling to the knees with the forehead on the floor. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think this article could be re-done with a large emphasis on beliefs and religious practices; and (a smaller) area on historical beginnings. Presumably, cultural anthropologists would see the beginnings of this holiday in the sacrificial elements as mentioned in the Bible. While there may be historical underpinnings to Talmudic remembrances, it should not be presented as history, but belief.

The "according to the Talmud" covers the issue of how reliable the source is. Wikipedia's general approach to living religions has been to present the religion as the religionists see and describe it, then to present scholarly commentary on it. Judaism articles generally present Orthodox perspectives first, then Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist perspectives. Articles on Christianity and Islam aren't run any differently. The Temple service is presented not because of modern thoughts about its origins but because of the contemporary role it plays in the religion. It's also commom to use religious sources present the religious perspective. The Temple looms large in Orthodox perspectives, although less so to not at all in other perspectives. --Shirahadasha 14:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some "modern" philosophical flavors via Buber, Rosenzweig, or even Kaplan might be useful?

Feel free to add these, they would go in a section identifying whose perspectives they are as e.g. "Contemporary Reform (or Progressive Jewish or some such thing) Perspectives" It's entirely possible that the Orthodox view is over-represented at this point, feel free to add more information about the Reform or other views. Per WP:NPOV, there is no "Wikipedia" view. --Shirahadasha 14:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotally: while I was once told of the absolute devotion of Orthodox Jewry in Europe during the Yom Kippur service in the early 1900s; during fifty years of experience in Orthodox and Conservative congregations I have never witnessed any of the congregation prostrating themselves. If someone were to prostrate them self I'm sure an ambulance would be summoned. LarG 12:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

I know that in most Conservative synagogues only the Hazzan does this. I've never been in an Orthodox synagogue where there weren't a large number of people who did it, although my circles have been limited. It may be that this tradition is making something of a comeback. The custom certainly exists, although it appears there is a question of how widespread it is. --Shirahadasha 14:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yom Kippur War

Is the advertisement for the Yom Kippur war at the top really necessary? I think most people who search for the yom kippur war write yom kippur war, not yom kippur. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solid Reign (talk • contribs).

It is advisible to add such link, as many people aren't aware of the holiday. I can't fully explain to to you, but there are many such articles. Michaelas10 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it is important to that the Arab states chose that particular day because the Jews were all at the synagogue (but didn't realize that mobilization was so much quicker because they were all in one place) as well as what laws they abbrogated and which ones they didn't on that first day of defending the country. I say keep the links. Valley2city 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian belief

Someone removed the Christian belief section which has been there for quite some time. I thought this was wrong seeing as Jews and Christians also see this day as a day of significance. I don't think it should be removed. --76.5.10.238 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It should have been removed because this is a Jewish article. You don't see any Jewish beliefs being posted in Christian articles. So why should Christian beliefs be posted in Jewish articles? I know that there are more Christians but give the Jews some space for atleast a few articles. The world doesn't revolve around Christianity and their beliefs. You think a Christian would care about Jewish beliefs? Hell No!

Dear unsigned editor, do not remove entire entries without first going through discussions here. Removing the entry first and then adding a discussion post is unacceptable. There is no "race"-only or "religion"-only articles. Since Judaism is the "root" of Christianity, it is conceivable that many doctrines, holy days, and religions match. Hence, it is noteworthy to have a minor blurb of the Christian beliefs. --Jbanning22 14:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)