Talk:Yitzhak Rabin assassination conspiracy theories
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[edit] Words about this subject
Words from David Rutstein. I actually know the Amir family. Geula Amir, Yigal's mom really well. As well as Barry Chamish really well. I am the one who built www.BarryChamish.com and www.YigalAmir.com. In fact, all email from both sites go to me. Email from Barry's site gets forwarded to Barry as well.
The first month of Yigal Amir's arrest, Yigal denied doing the murder. After some friendly persuasion he was all into blaming the Rabbis and admitting everything. I am not sure what was discussed, money and threats. But that is what happened. Yigal will never show remorse because he did not do the murder. The evidence is really overwhelming. The video of the murder is now online and even in that video you can see wierd things happenning. Look at the back passenger door of the limo close from the inside. There was a fourth person in that limo. Israeli TV showed the 10 minute video of the murder, "the Kempler video", for one week in 1996, and has not shown the video since. In fact Yigal played an exaggerated non-defense in which he seemed to want to get convicted. This exagerated desire to be convicted seems wierd and will cause Yigal eventually to be freed because anybody who studies the case realizes that Yigal shot blanks. As well, Yigal Amir is not viewed as a hero by anyone. Most right wingers realize that Yigal did not murder Rabin. Barry Chamish has been giving lectures in Israel for years. Almost every right winger in Israel has heard of Barry. The left wingers are different. There is a complete censor on this subject in the entire Israel media. Since there is a big inclination for left winger to be "happy" that a religous Jew did a murder, the left wingers are less likely to have read one of the conspiracy books or heard Barry's lecture. As well left wingers get their information from TV and newspapers. Rabin conspiracy does not appear on these news vehicles. Right wingers watch less TV, read less newspapers and are less likely to believe what they see in those media anyways. It may seem that right wingers are "idiots" for not following the news. Right wingers in Israel is another word for religous Jews or those closer to the Jewish religous observance. The religous Jew studies Torah and study of Torah takes alot of time. End of comments by David Rutstein
[edit] Dates and facts
Interesting but when we talk about conspiracy theory it's important to document all the facts in a comprehensive manner. What are the source (date, name, links etc...)--equitor 04:15, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
- A reaction in English to Barry Chalamish/David Cohen and the Kempler video can be found at this page of the Dutch Wikipedia. gidonb 23:51, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] More words: Kempler video online
more words from David Rutstein- We are literally making history this week. Now that the Kemper video is online. This is the first time Israelis have seen the video in over nine years. As well as the video of Minister of Health Efraim Sneh, who happens to be a medical doctor. Dr Sneh announce the on TV that night in hebrew that Rabin was hit by three bullets. One to the chest, one to the stomach and one to the spinal cord. For those who understand any hebrew. go to the web site www.yigalamir.com or www.yitzhakrabin.co.il on the top left is the Sneh video. It is less than two minutes. Right below the Sneh video on the sites is the video of Yigal Amir himself one month after the murder saying that "he did not murder" and telling the investigator of the "fake" murder attept by a right winger to boost up Rabin's popularity. With this new evidence available to the public. All week I called the Knesset with a simple sales pitch. They all listened and learned. There are only 120 Knesset members and I called every office 7-8 times. I got passed from secretary to main advisor to the politician himself. The whole Knesset knows now. I was under the mistaken impression that the Knesset members new the truth but were just afraid. Not true. They really did not know and the total blackout of news on subject in Israel has succeeded for almost 10 years. This week they all know. Be real, of course Dr Sneh checked the body before he made the annnouncement and told the truth on TV. the Kempler video shows Yigal shooting Rabin supposedly in the back. You can see the evidence on the Kempler video of the fourth person in the limo, the bluriness of the Yigal Amir at the time of the shooting which indicates the video was tampered. The way it looks now one of the political parties will come forward very soon and brake the Rabin murder silence. I am not joking, this stuff is going to make history in the very near future. end of words by David Rutstein
- A reaction in English to Barry Chalamish/David Rutstein's latest claims and actions can be found at this page of the Dutch Wikipedia. gidonb 00:28, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Click archive on that page. gidonb 14:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Barry Chamish
It seems to me that Barry Chamish is a major perpetrator of this conspiracy theory, so it seems odd not to mention him prominently in this article. Would those who want to suppress mention of him explain why? Is there good reason for keeping him out of Wikipedia? Wikipedia does need to include all facts, even those unpalatable from our own viewpoints, so I think you need to show why you feel it is not factual to say that Chamish has investigated this "conspiracy", rather than reverting good-faith edits as though they were coming from vandals. Grace Note 03:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Barry Chamish just was served a police complaint from Shimon Peres political party. The reason was incitement. Barry accuses him of organizing the murder. I just got publicity on my site www.shimonperes.net and this police complaint will get more publicity. And various sites like rotter.net are really getting into Rabin murder. The people who did the murder realize that the "party is over." I promised history and am beginning to deliver. Kempler video 03:25, 8 Sept 2005 (UTC)
More good news, the nrg.co.il (Maariv newspaper) article about Barry Chamish being served a police complaint was reported but never happened. The initial article was in the Labor political party newspaper which called me and Barry phsycos that should be institutionalized in a mental hospital. I (David Rutstein) filed a criminal complaint against Shimon Peres personally for slander. This is a crime in Israel. I will be filing a civil lawsuit very soon. This is making headlines on www.rotter.net. Most of the press holds by the censor. But this shimonperes.net was on TV chanel 10 for 2 minutes. Better than nothing. Kempler video 03:25,11 Sept 2005 (UTC)
[edit] This page is POV
Most claims by the conspiracy theorists are brought forward as facts, while most of them are nothing more than fables. Clearly this makes the current text POV. I believe that a POV text is not totally inevitable, yet it is common to fairy tale pages of this sort.
It is enough to take a look at Barry Chamish websites to draw these conclusions. The documents he presents do not lead to the conclusions he draws. When the documents totally lack any support for his conclusions, he starts pushing his point through right in the middle of them. Mostly however there are no documents to support his facts. He does however make it clear that he hates Shimon Peres and Ariel Sharon on who he blames various conspiracies (among which the murder of Yitzhak Rabin and his wife, who by the way died of cancer). This lack of neutrality is evident also for anyone who reads the Yitzhak Rabin assassination conspiracy theories page.
Worse however is that, because I care about the contents of Wikipedia, I am now blamed for being part of the murder plot. I ask anyone who cares about Wikipedia to put an end to this madness which takes place already on many pages. gidonb 12:00, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
Hey Gidonb, I have no idea what you were doing Nov, 4,1995. But I do know that these past few weeks you have been working hard to delete and edit out references to Kempler video on Barry Chamish, Yigal Amir, Yitzhak Rabin sites. The 7 1/2 Kempler video with my explanation really makes the murder really easy to understand. Now you are replacing the 7 1/2 minute video with the 10 second CNN clip on one of the sites. Of course this brings suspicion. Kempler video 03:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
Blog by POV pusher deleted by gidonb. I encourage anyone in doubt to look in the page history at the time in my signature to examine the validity of this deletion. gidonb 20:43, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] External links
Gidon, not sure what your definition of "hatespeech" is, but regardless, Wikipedia is not a nannystate that outlaws particular POVs by criminalizing them as verboten-thought. Those are links to major repositories of info regarding the Rabin conspiracy theories, and they belong here. Babajobu 02:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- Hello Babajobu, by any defintion hatespeech is not quite the same as verboten-thought, but can you please refer me to the specific WP policy on which you base your opinion? Regards, gidonb 02:48, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
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- Gidon, right after you refer me to the specific WP policy that prescribes or even allows removing links with valuable and relevant info because they contain "hatespeech". Regards, Babajobu 03:01, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
You just undid my edits, not the other way around. Nevertheless, Wikipedia:External_links mentions explicitly that one should consider whether a linked page is tasteful. Showing a Nobel Peace Prize laureate with blood dripping out of his mouth and from his hands cannot be considered tasteful. This pictures bears strong resemblance to anti-Semitic propaganda. I will undo your edits unless you find explicit reasons for undoing my edits. Not only have you refused to come up with reasons after my request, you also gave no reason at all for your reverts in the edit summary. Mind you, my prior edit was well sumarized and did not resemble vandalism. gidonb 03:16, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- I should not have used the rollback function, true. I should have used a descriptive edit summary. However, you are the one who removed content, and so I think the burden was on you to state a reason other than asserting that they were "hatespeech", whatever that may mean. Regardless, you've now provided your justification. I disagree that Nobel Prize winners are entitled to special reverence in Wikipedia, or that that silly pic of Rabin is more tasteless than numerous other pictures actually *in* Wikipedia articles. And since this article concerns conspiracy theories, I think it would be a sin of omission not to link to the more prominent websites promoting those conspiracy theories. Regardless, I won't get into a revert war, I'll leave the article as you prefer it, but I would like to hear other's opinions on whether these sites are "hatespeech" to which Wikipedia must not link, even though they are undeniably relevant to this article. Babajobu 03:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
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- FYI the picture is not of Yitzhak Rabin but of Shimon Peres, another laureate, which Barry Chamish claims ordered the murder of the late Israeli prime-minister while he was Israel's minister of Foreign Affairs and Rabin's close political ally. Chamish's partner, David Rutstein, also blamed the murder on me as I sometimes undo his POV additions to this and other articles. Inventing conspiracy theories is so much easier then writing good articles on Wikipedia ;-) I am a longtime contributor to Wikipedia who happened to run into these articles and now have them on my watchlist. Regards, gidonb 03:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
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- Well, as an active politician, Peres is even less entitled to reverent depictions than is Rabin. I'm actually thinking about adding the links again, I really think you're out to lunch on the "hatespeech" claims. You're censoring important links for this article on extremely dubious grounds. And I agree that inventing ludicrous conspiracy theories is a fool's errand, but this article is *about* those very thories. Babajobu 03:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
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Glad we agree. More tasteful links to conspiracy pages exist. There are some six four Israelis who have published these theories. Of these six four, en.wikipedia gets an overdosis of Chamish related pages selling his books, because of his pushy friend. Today I received an article from Debka File, an "alternative Israeli news source". I will add it instead of this tasteless hate speech page. gidonb 03:57, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's fine, if you can add links to pages that contain the same arguments without the pictures, I'm satisfied with that. Babajobu 03:59, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
I just did. Contains all the arguments, which are in the article anyway. Minus the commercial content of this one conspiracy pusher. Only on Wikipedia Chamish is so much more discussed than the others "theorists". gidonb 04:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- Okay, we're good to go, then. :) Babajobu 04:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
We are fine. See you, Babajobu! gidonb 04:10, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
Gidonb is not being honest when he says that he occasionally reverts my edits. Reverting my edits seems to be Gidon's full time job. Gidon is really wasting his time. I do get the feeling that Gidon may be an employee of Shimon Peres and it is a waste of time thinking that Gidon is reasonable. I, David Rutstein, actually caused Shimon to loose the primary and this is the beginning. In the very near future we are going to be hearing of a Knesset member holding a press conference to spill all the beans. That should be fun. Kempler video 04:06, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Pat Robertson
The following text (not mine) was deleted from the article. It was obviously misplaced. However, it may be useful here or elsewhere if it can be tied correctly into the topic. gidonb 15:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC) On the January 5, 2006, Edition of the 700 Club, Pat Robertson compared Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's severe stroke hospitalization to Rabin's 1995 assassination, stating that both incidents were retribution from God for (their) recent drive to give more land to the Palestinians.
[edit] Link spam
link spam deleted by gidonb. I encourage anyone in doubt to look in the page history at the time in my signature to examine the validity of this deletion. Comment below refers to the deleted link spam. gidonb 20:36, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no doubt in my mind that people are getting paid to edit wiki. the 2 most informative web sites on rabin murder conspiracy in english are http://www.barrychamish.com and http://www.shimonperes.net/davidrutstein.htm Why would anybody delete these edits when the name of the page is rabin murder conspiracy. if gidonb wants to put his anti-conspiracy article up, great as a external link or better yet as a separate article in wiki. and even make a link from the conspiracy article and visa-versa. Having wiki as a free flow of information is good. But we have to know that there is a ton of evidence that supports that Rabin murder was a fraud and it is logical for the killers of Rabin to pay someone to edit wiki. These folks have succeeded in hebrew wiki but english language is special to me. Kempler video 12:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
- Promoting your personal website is bad enough, but continually insisting that gidonb is being paid to edit Wikipedia, or that he is actually Stephen Plaut, is a violation of Wikipedia's civility and personal attacks policies. Please desist before sterner action is required. Jayjg (talk) 18:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Hey Jayjg, what else is a normal person supposed to think, the article name is rabin murder conspiracy. and gidonb spends much time putting up anti-conspiracy links, and deleting the 2 most pursuasive web sites dedicated to rabin murder conspiracy. is not the ideal solution just to have gidonb open up a anti-conspiracy article ">(talk) 18:32, 8 feb 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I suppose if one is already promoting one conspiracy, then any others seem more likely. Nevertheless, a "normal person" is supposed to assume good faith, or alternatively, use Occam's razor and common sense. WP:NPOV policy insists on balance; that is, all sides of a position are heard, rather than separate articles for different viewpoints. And I'm sure you think your website is amazingly persuasive, but that doesn't mean that Wikipedia is the place to advertise it. Jayjg (talk) 18:25, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A relevant link can be found here. http://www.voiceofjudea.com/eng/news.asp?news=90&type=breaking gidonb 00:34, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] YigalAmir.com
It's not a link spam, it's fits perfectly to this article. --Haham hanuka 13:44, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- FYI, the discussion on including yigalamir.com, in light of the relevant Wikipedia policies, was held above under the chapters external links and link spam. gidonb 13:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rabin's vertebrae
The following statement does not make any sense. Please clarify what is meant here (or else, we'll have to remove it)
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- Rabin would have walked after Amir's shots in a manner inconsistent with gunshot, an impossibility if they shattered the vertebrae.
Was Rabin able to walk after the shooting? Was Rabin's vertebrae curshed? It's just not clear. --Asbl 20:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps this article will be helpful for the medical part of the bullet list. gidonb 20:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
==David Rutstein's final conclusion== people on wiki have been witnessing an incredible battle that is about to be ended. It is amazing that the people who killed Rabin almost got away with it. Thanks to the internet ... just about everyone in Israel knows the truth now. This is a troubled country and it it is not so easy for the establishment to admit that they are lieing to its people for 10 years, but life goes on. This will probably end on November, there is a large group of people who want to make a big deal at the november rally in tel aviv and it will be over very soon. You may have noticed the notes that I put on the main page for the sources. Every thing is public and easily accessable.. the entire media, politicians, etc. know.. and much of the population David RutsteinKempler Video 20:26, 26 july 2006 (UTC)
