Talk:Yisrael Beiteinu
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
Yisrael Beiteinu is part of the WikiProject Israel, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Israel articles. |
|
Project Israel To Do (Drop-Down Menu):
|
|
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. |
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. |
I assume this party was named to sound similar to Our Home is Russia, the "party of power" in Russia at the time. I think there was also an Our Home is Estonia. I'm not suggesting any of these parties are linked but if I'm right about the name I think it should be mentioned.
Indeed "Bait" means "home" in Hebrew and "Beytenu" is "Our home". So the party name is "Israel - our home". The name sounds good in Hebrew. I do not think that there is a direct link between parties. Israel Beytenu is right wing, (ultra ?) patriotic, Zionist (?) party.
Contents |
[edit] Stub?
It doesn't look to me as if the article is a stub anymore. If anyone edits it frequently, please review the case. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 16:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Article title
Naming this article "Israel Beytenu" is odd. The actual political party's Hebrew name is "Yisrael Beytenu." The English name is "Israel, Our Home." The title should be the one or the other, but not a mishmash of both. I'm not sure why anyone decided to redirect this article from "Yisrael Beytenu." As far as I'm concerned (& I am a fluent Hebrew-speaker), the article should be titled "Yisrael Beytenu." That is how the vast majority of people searching for it here would do so. Richard 22:19, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Update needed, party now in ruling coalition
See "Israeli PM lets hard-liner in government". Lieberman is becoming deputy PM and Israel Beytenu is now part of the ruling coalition. --John Nagle 20:09, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Position in left/right spectrum
There's a nice image of the Israeli political spectrum at Israelvotes.com. This may be useful as a quick guide. --John Nagle 00:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Lieberman plan
For those of us outside the region, It's a little hard to see what is being proposed territorially. Has Lieberman, or his party, produced a map of how they intend to re-draw the border? Indisciplined 22:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Far-right" and "Ultra-nationalist" Labels
With all respects to American correspondents Jeffrey Heller and Robert Berger, which were referenced in labelling Israel Beitenu a "far-right" or "ultra-nationalist" parties, this is simply their opinion which doesn't belong in Wikipedia, an opinion of outsiders at that, and is simply incorrect in respect to Israeli political landscape. Israel Beitenu, while pledging toughness towards Palestinians, in fact believes in a two-state solution, which makes them if anything - pragmatic right-wingers, as opposed to Likud, Mafdal, National Union, Herut, Moledet or other parties that still adhere to the Greater Israel policy. If Israel Beitenu was indeed far-right or ultra-nationalist, that would imply that there isn't a party in Israel that is more to the right then them, which is simply incorrect. Finally, will the anonymous person who keeps making these changes have the grace to identify himself by choosing a proper username, and discuss his ideas on this page. Many thanks! Eliyyahu 04:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that Israel Beytenu is not a 'far right' party, but I'd say that calling it ultra-nationalist would be accurate. It basically advocates a more Jewish country (with a higher percentage of people from the Jewish nationality), proposes that anyone who doesn't identify with what the country is for be given only a half-citizenship, etc. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 05:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- P.S. I think you accidentally reverted my minor changes to the infobox. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 05:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- P.P.S. By the way, I also disagree with the 'conservative' label. Maybe there's some political definition of conservative that I've missed (such as conservative = right-wing?), but generally Israel Beytenu does not overtly support religion, proposes many new changes (presidential system, ceding land in Israel proper in exchange for annexing WB areas, etc.), and in general different from conservative parties like Mafdal and Likud. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 06:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is safe to objectively call Israel Beitenu a right-wing Zionist party - ultra-nationalist, once again, would imply that they are the most nationalist in the spectre of Israeli parties, which is not the case. All Zionist or religious parties in Israel seek a more Jewish Israel, it's only the means that are different. For all the accusations, IB's plan of redrawing borders based on current ethnic divisions is exactly what the original UN partition plan was trying to create - except that it reflects the current situation. However, the fact that Israel Beitenu are also supported by many loyal non-Jewish Israelis, such as the Druze, automatically disqualifies them from the ultra-nationalist label. I agree, however, that calling them conservative is not appropriate, and, as you correctly pointed out, Likid, Shas or Mafdal are more conservative, and United Torah Judaism is probably ultra-conservative. Eliyyahu 07:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Far-right" and "ultranationalist" strike me as reasonable labels for this party. I'm curious, though, as to whether the party is described in these terms in the Israeli political arena. Does Israel Beytenu dispute these labels? I've put in a section in which I just state that some observers have described it as "far right" without taking a position. (NPOV, all that jazz). I see that you, Eliyyahu, speak Hebrew. Perhaps you could ferret out some Israeli sources, because that's what this article needs more than aything else. Of course, such sources should come from all over the political spectrum. --Zantastik talk 07:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- Neither references you quote come from Israel, rather but from left-wing European media, which keep parroting the label, without any understanding of Israeli politics. Secondly, far-right or ultranationalist in one country can be centrist in another (e.g. some might call George W. Bush far-right, while in the context of Palestinian politics anyone that anyone that doesn't call for the destruction of Israel is a "moderate". I am not going to make a judgment on the validity of these labels. Have a look at this website, which outlines Israeli political parties, their platforms and relative position on the left-right spectrum [2]. The use of far-right ("yemin qitzoni") is reserved to parties that call for PA to be dismantled and Arabs forcefully expelled to Jordan (Herut and Jewish National Front). Likud, National Union and Mafdal do not support the two-state solution, yet are never called far-right. If anything, Israel Beitenu is a "pragmatic right-wing party". Eliyyahu 23:04, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- By the way, Israel Beitenu doesn't advocate "transfer" of Arabs, merely re-partitioning areas adjacent to the PA which reflects the demography. It is in line with logic of the original UN partition plan. Eliyyahu 23:07, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I just stumbled into this conversation, and merely wanted to note that NPR is neither "far left" nor "European" and has used the label "far right". Additionally, I agree with Zantastik that it's appropriate to note that the party has been described as "far right", so long as the article is careful to note who has called it far right (but not that it is objectively far right). · j e r s y k o talk · 00:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- One more thing: while I think it is appropriate to include a sourced description of the party's ideology in the article, it should not be under the subheading "far right". Perhaps the blurb could be included in the "platform" subsection, which already discusses the party's ideology, or a new "ideology" subsection could be created. · j e r s y k o talk · 16:52, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- I just stumbled into this conversation, and merely wanted to note that NPR is neither "far left" nor "European" and has used the label "far right". Additionally, I agree with Zantastik that it's appropriate to note that the party has been described as "far right", so long as the article is careful to note who has called it far right (but not that it is objectively far right). · j e r s y k o talk · 00:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Far-right" and "ultranationalist" strike me as reasonable labels for this party. I'm curious, though, as to whether the party is described in these terms in the Israeli political arena. Does Israel Beytenu dispute these labels? I've put in a section in which I just state that some observers have described it as "far right" without taking a position. (NPOV, all that jazz). I see that you, Eliyyahu, speak Hebrew. Perhaps you could ferret out some Israeli sources, because that's what this article needs more than aything else. Of course, such sources should come from all over the political spectrum. --Zantastik talk 07:17, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is safe to objectively call Israel Beitenu a right-wing Zionist party - ultra-nationalist, once again, would imply that they are the most nationalist in the spectre of Israeli parties, which is not the case. All Zionist or religious parties in Israel seek a more Jewish Israel, it's only the means that are different. For all the accusations, IB's plan of redrawing borders based on current ethnic divisions is exactly what the original UN partition plan was trying to create - except that it reflects the current situation. However, the fact that Israel Beitenu are also supported by many loyal non-Jewish Israelis, such as the Druze, automatically disqualifies them from the ultra-nationalist label. I agree, however, that calling them conservative is not appropriate, and, as you correctly pointed out, Likid, Shas or Mafdal are more conservative, and United Torah Judaism is probably ultra-conservative. Eliyyahu 07:11, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Revisionist Zionism
I have noticed that people have been adding revisionist Zionism to the party's platform. I think this may be another error of association - similarly to how people associate right-wing with conservative, even though Israel Beytenu isn't conservative in any way, so do they associate right-wing Israeli parties with revisionist Zionism. This is incorrect because the revisionist ideology today opposes a Palestinian state and wants to maximize Israel's borders, including re-settling in Gaza and all of the West Bank. Israel Beytenu does not oppose a Palestinian state, but supports a land exchange and disengagement from the Palestinians. It does not claim that Israel should extend from Jordan to the sea, but that Israeli Arab towns like the triangle should be handed over to the Palestinian Authority in order to annex Jewish settlements like Ariel and Ma'ale Adummim. I fail to see how this is in tune with revisionist Zionism. Moreover, the source provided by someone in the infobox (Israel votes) doesn't even mention revisionist Zionism - this is even assuming it's a reliable source, which it may not be. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- While Revisionist Zionism is not the right label - Israel Beitenu does see themselves as the heirs of Vladimir Ze'ev Jabotinsky - which is the first thing you can see on their English website. Revisionist Zionism, of course, believed in Jewish settlement of both the West and the East Bank of the Jordan River, which is far from what IB is proposing. Eliyyahu 11:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ironies and Assocations
I imagine that Russian speaking voters in Israel (by far Yisrael Beytenu's chief demographic) would immediately recognise the association between the name of the party and the Russian nationalist party Россия, На Дом (Russia, Our Home).
Is it reasonable to expect that non-Russian speaking Israelis would also be well acquainted with the connotation and the similarities in outlook? If so, might this association not merit a notation in the article?
Finally, another point. There has been an lively discussion as to whether Yisrael Beytenu can be reasonably categorised under various rubrics (far right, conservative, etc). Yet everyone seems comfortable with the designations "nationalist" and "zionist". Is it not then a reflection on the strange make up of Israeli society that this nationalist, ultra-nationalist and/or zionist party is the public face of recent Russian immigrants, few of whom are Jewish?
--Philopedia 02:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- "Few of whom are Jewish"? Actually the vast majority are Jewish or at least consider themselves Jewish (as someone pointed out to me, in Russia you are thought of as Jewish if your father is, but the Israeli Rabbinate demands matrilineal descent). The number of immigrants who do not consider themselves Jewish is quite small, mostly consisting of Christians married to immigrants. Also, although the party is thought of as Russian dominated, it is also the major party of the settlers (if you can read Hebrew, check out the city-by-city results here) - Yisrael Beytenu was the highest scoring party in Ariel! Number 57 09:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
