Talk:Yakiniku

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[edit] Horse meat? Really?

I've never seen horse meat on the menu of a Japanese yakiniku restaurant. I've seen horse meat served as "sakura niku" which is a kind of raw horse meat, but is it really served in yakiniku restaurants?--DannyWilde 07:02, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

I can't say how "usual" (or whatever the text says) it is, but yes, it is not that uncommon in yakiniku restaurants.　Mackan 17:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yakiniku in the United States?

What kind of beef meat would you tell your butcher to cut for you when wanting to use it for Yakiniku? Burningphoenix 11:05, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 0.5 nom

This article was nominated for Wikipedia:Version 0.5, I failed it because it's a little more than a stub, and no refs. Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 19:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the origin of yakiniku

"Yakiniku" does indeed mean "grilled meat", and of course people in Japan discovered how to grill meat before Koean immigrants brought bulgogi. But most people in Japan who hear the word "yakiniku" would think of a Korean-style dish where thinly sliced meat, such as karubi (named after galbi) is served in restaurants which also serve kimuchi (kimchi), namuru (namul), bibimba (bibimbap), yukke (yukhoe) and kuppa (gukbap). The fact that modern Japanese yakiniku has minor differences from authentic bulgogi is expected, and it does not change the simple fact that what we know as "yakiniku" is Korean in origin. I personally don't care where it originates from (I just like to eat it) and it's depressing to see some people who have such petty, petty nationalist hang-ups about the origin of some barbecue dish. Phonemonkey 00:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

If you want not to be a such petty, petty nationalist, you'd better to delete about Korean origin. I only corrected it because it is a lie. To revert it is not a solution.The style of Yakiniku came from the style of yakitori which is grilled over an open fire. It's very old style of cooking in Japan. Bulgogi is not grilled over an open fire.Tropicaljet 10:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Please provide sources for your statement. You have no evidence that yakiniku isn't Korean. Mackan 16:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The general concensus in Japan and the world is that yakiniku is a Japanese dish of Korean origin, like ramen is a Japanese dish of Chinese origin and tonkatsu is a Japanese dish of European origin. That's why yakiniku is served alongside kimchi in a faux-Korean environment, ramen served alongside gyoza in a faux-Chinese environment, and tonkatsu often considered "yoshoku". Gyu-Kaku's website at [1] is only one example of myriads of yakiniku's references to its Korean origin. One or two minor differences between yakiniku and bulgogi is what's expected of any dish which is adopted in other countries (see kebab, pizza). If you actually have any evidence that this widely-held belief is only a myth, then please present it for discussion. Phonemonkey 11:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of Yakiniku dispute

Hi. Mackan left me a note a few days ago about at edit war that seems to involve a number of articles, including this one. I notice from the article history that it's still going on. I'd like to request that all involved editors stop editing the article, even to revert to the "right version". The solution to an edit war isn't reverting, it turns out. We need to freeze the article and talk about it here. If everyone can't agree to a freeze, then I'll have to protect the page, which isn't the best, but the back and forth edits have to stop. You can be sure that if I apply protection, it will be to the Wrong Version; I'm required to do that.

Now, what exactly is the content of this dispute? I'm seeing the repeated insertion and removal of the following paragraph:

===Origin of Yakiniku===
The origin of Yakiniku is the Western world introduced at the Meiji Period. The Meiji emperor ate beef to encourage eating meat on January 24, 1873. Afterwards, barbecue has spread to the Japan. Japanese Famous critic Kanagaki-Robun translated the barbecue into Yakiniku in 1879. Roasting was translated into the Rhosu (ロース). Therefore, the sirloin is called a Rhosu in Japan. [2]　To eat delicious Yakiniku, Kobe beef was developed. Yakiniku of mutton (Zingisukan-Nabe) was created in Hokkaido in 1936.

I see a couple of problems with this paragraph. First of all, that link to "Western world" makes no sense - what is being claimed here? Second, that external link is in Japanese, and I can't read it. What information am I supposed to be using that link to verify, anyway? The URL looks commercial - is that a website selling something, or what? Linking to the Japanese wikipedia is also problematic, but my first question about it is, what article is that? Can someone provide some hints for the linguistically limited like myself? I'd like to figure out what all there reversions are about. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yakiniku is a meaning of roasting(Yaki) meat(Niku) though it is a fundamental matter. And, Yakiniku is a custom of starting at the Meiji Period. The Japanese did not have the custom of eating meat for the influence of the Confucianism. Japan encouraged eating meat to obtain the Western civilization at the Meiji Period.
Can you agree to this part?(Are more explanations necessary?)--ShinjukuXYZ 22:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I think I understand what you're saying, although I would suggest some rewording to make the English read more naturally. I'm also interested in why some Can you tell me what http://mankiti.umai.co.jp/ is, and why you're including that link? I can't read anything at that website, because I don't know any Japanese. Thanks. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

GTBacchus, could you help sort out the mess caused by Shinjuku and his obvious sockpuppet User:Necmate? Just look at their edit histories (especially Necmate's very first round of edits) and what they are reverting. Really needs some intervention. Thanks. OpieNn 22:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to help out, OpieNn, but I'm having some trouble understanding just what the dispute is here. Can you state clearly what you're disagreeing with in the edit Shinjuku keeps making? Any information you can give me about the content of this dispute would be very useful. Thanks in advance. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's sort of a larger problem in several articles, a Japanese nationalist with poor grasp of English and a worse grasp of Wikipedia:Attribution. Shinjuku has already been shown to revert-war with ip addresses and sockpuppets Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/NekoNekoTeacher. Look at his deletion of BBC reference [3] and replacement of CNN with original research [4]. Then look at Necmate's first round of reverts, exactly the same reverts as Shinjuku, immediately upon registering the new account [5].

In this article, he's just trying to deny any Korean influence in Japanese cuisine. The comfort women article and other WW2 revisionism are more serious problems, in my opinion. It's been going on for a really long time, and seriously needs an administrator intervention. Thanks. OpieNn 22:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I second every thing OpieNn said. Additionally, ShibuyaXYZ was never interested in discussing the matter, he has not once presented any rationale for his, and believe my asked for one. I even started out assuming good faith, asking him to post what he meant on the talk page, where I felt he would be able to be explain exactly what it was that he meant.
Look just now, even though you asked us not to revert again, he just blatantly ignored you and reverted it back to his version anyway. I'd like to see this page protected (the version without the uncomprehensible broken English) until the problem with ShibuyaXYZ and all his sockpuppets gets sorted out. Mackan 23:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

About the Japanese site ShinjukuXYZ gives as a source, it's a commercial one, promoting a special sort of beef called "Yonezawagyuu". Except for being miles away from a WP:RS, the page he's referring to does not even mention the word yakiniku ONCE.Mackan 23:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've got this one, Comfort women and Anti-Japanese sentiment on my watchlist, and I'm confident we'll get them all sorted out. Please let me know which other articles I should be watching in this connection. (I've just watchlisted Yi Sunsin and Mike Honda, as they seem to be the subject of some related reversions, as well as the ones you listed at your talk page, Macken.) This article seemed like perhaps the least complicated, so I chose this as a point of entry.
I realize there's the matter or sockpuppets, but I'd like to try the usual content dispute resolution steps before we have to worry about that. I'm not just going to start blocking accounts or protecting articles or something until I'm convinced that diplomacy won't work. I'm happy to assume that Shinjuku hadn't seen my post before he reverted this last time.
Back to the current article, I'm puzzled by what you said, OpieNn, that Shinjuku is trying to deny any Korean influence in Japanese cuisine. In this edit, he seems to be adding an "Influence of Korea" header, and also adding a paragraph that I can't quite understand, due to the English. I still am puzzled as to precisely what fact is in dispute here. Mackan, thank you for the information about the external link. I agree that it's inappropriate, being commercial and inaccessible to many readers. Can anybody enlighten me as to just what Shinjuku is claiming in this article and why other people disagree with it? I apologize if I'm being dense about this, but I know nothing about Yakiniku, except that it looks delicious. I wonder if the Japanese restaurant around the corner serves it... -GTBacchus(talk) 00:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
What Shinjuku is trying to do is to suggest that the REAL origin is the western world, and not Korea as is generally thought. By instead writing "Korean influence", he is trying to make it sound as if the origin is not Korea, Korea merely "influenced" yakiniku. You're not daft, it can be hard to understand how Japanese English works. Mackan 09:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, part of the conflict stems from the fact that the part ShinjukuXYZ is putting in again and again is almost entirely uncomprehensible. I first asked him to post in more detail here, so if his edits contained anything of value, I could help him make it comprehensible, but he simply refused and reverted it back. Mackan 10:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I've edited Shinjuku's addition for English, tried to incorporate more relevant wikilinks, removed inappropriate links, and thrown in some {{citationneeded}} tags. If that material can't be attributed to a reliable source, then it should be removed.
Meanwhile, we've got the next paragraph claiming that yakiniku got its start after World War II, and that the term "yakiniku" is a translation of the Korean bulgogi. That claim has a couple of citations, which I can't read because they're in Japanese. What are [6] and [7]?
It's perfectly ok if there's a conflict over the origin of this dish. If there are reliable sources claiming that Yakiniku originated with the Meiji Emperor, and other reliable sources claiming that Yakiniku is a Korean import, then we can cite both, and report that sources differ on that point. If we can't find reliable sources backing up either claim, then we should remain silent on the question of origin. -GTBacchus(talk) 16:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but ShinjukuXYZ has not presented any sources suggesting yakiniku came from the western world. I'll have a closer look at the other sources later. Mackan 17:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English language sources addressing the history of Yakiniku

There don't seem to be very many of these; I'm just starting a list with what I'm finding on Google. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

  • [8] This is an article from the Organic Consumers Association about mad cow disease; it says, "The history of yakiniku in Japan is relatively new. Right after World War II, when the nation was in the midst of a serious food shortage, Korean residents of Osaka opened small canteens at which Japanese became familiar with their cuisine, including yakiniku. During the period of high economic growth, Korean-style yakiniku restaurants proliferated throughout the country. The bubble economy era saw the emergence of several upscale yakiniku restaurants that catered to those entertaining on expense accounts. In less than 60 years, yakiniku has established itself as one of the nation's most popular foods."
  • [9] This one has detailed discussion of the history and cultural context of meat eating in Japan. It argues that, while there was some consumption of meat in Japan following the Emperor's proclamation that "those who do not eat meat are not civilized", it wasn't really integrated into the Japanese diet until Korean-style yakiniku restaurants became popular.

That's the two sources I've found so far, and I have to go now. Others are welcome to list more. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

GTBacchus, I will try to provide whatever sources and translations necessary....
The most common usage for the Japanese word "Yakiniku" today is for "Korean-style barbeque". However, that's only in the last 40 years or so. It is perhaps fair to say that "Yakiniku" had a totally different connotation before then.
Here is a citation from a prominent Japanese-English dictionary: Yakiniku (やきにく). This dictionary lists 2 definitions:
  • grilled [fried] slices of meat
  • Korean-style barbecued beef
So according to this dictionary, "Yakiniku" (in Japanese) can refer to something other than Korean-style barbeque. Many other Japanese dictionaries don't even list "Korean-style barbecue" in their definition, clearly contradicting modern usage of the word "Yakiniku".
Also, consider the following item from this link you provided above, titled "History of Yakiniku" (in Japanese):
  • 昭和40年代 朝鮮半島問題がきっかけとなって、韓国を支持する派閥が自らの店を「韓国料理屋」と名乗りました。これに伴い、それまで全てが「朝鮮料理」「ホルモン屋」であったモノが、北朝鮮を支持する経営者が「焼肉店」を名乗るようになりました。これは苦肉の策で、プルゴギを日本語に直訳しました。
  • (TRANSLATED) Between 1965 and 1974, because of Korea's North-South dispute, those who sided with South Korea renamed their restaurants Kankoku Ryōriya (韓国料理屋? "Korean Restaurant"), where Kankoku is the South Korean word for "Korea". Before then they were always refered to as "Chōsen Ryōri" (朝鮮料理? "Korean Food"), where Chōsen is the North Korean (and the old Korean) word for "Korea", or "Horumonya" (ホルモン屋?). Then, those who sided with North Korea renamed their restaurants "yakiniku-ten" (焼肉店? "Yakiniku Restaurant"). This was a desparate measure, and Yakiniku was a direct translation of Bulgogi from Korean into Japanese.--Endroit 00:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Now having said that, I cannot find any sources that specifically say "Yakiniku originated during the Meiji Period", although we know that the Emperor Meiji promoted beef. (It says "beef" in this source, not "Yakiniku").--Endroit 00:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your research and translations, Endroit. I think I'm starting to get a better picture of the situation. The word "yakiniku" literally means "roast meat", right? So, meat was being eaten in Japan from 1873, and if it was roasted, then it could fairly be labelled "yakiniku". With the introduction and popularity of Korean "Yakiniku-ten" (焼肉店? "Yakiniku Restaurant"), the word is now generally understood as referring to that particular style of cuisine. So, yakiniku as it is thought of today is a Korean import, but the word "yakiniku" has an earlier history that predates Korean yakiniku restaurants in Japan. Am I understanding the sources correctly? -GTBacchus(talk) 01:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not that meat was first eaten in 1873, but the Meiji government did loads to promote more meat eating, and yeah, the emperor himself was brought in to be observed eating beef. Saying that all roasted meat would have been called yakiniku seems going a bit far, without a source suggesting so, though. Steak was called suteeki, for example. And beef biifu. Saying that yakiniku originated in 1873 by process of deduction (Meat-eating was promoted during the Meiji period - Yakiniku means roasted meat - Therefore yakiniku originated in the Meiji period) seems wrong to me. Mackan 09:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
That's pretty much it. However, it must be stressed that "Korean-style barbecue" IS the most commonly used meaning of the word Yakiniku today, by far. Also, none of our sources explicitly describe how the word "Yakiniku" was used prior to the 1960s.
However, there are sources for "other uses" of the word "Yakiniku" today. The most prominent example of a non-Korean-style Yakiniku is the Genghis Khan barbecue, described by ShinjukuXYZ as "Yakiniku of mutton". The Japanese Wikipedia article on "Genghis Khan barbecue" (ja:ジンギスカン (料理)) defines this dish as a type of Yakiniku. Here's one of their sources (in Japanese) which define "Genghis Khan barbecue" as a type of Yakiniku. Here's a very rare source in English, which defines Yakiniku as "Genghis Khan barbecue" (This backwards definition is quite misleading, though, in my opinion). Here's a description of what "Genghis Khan barbecue" is, in contrast to the (Korean-style) Yakiniku (Note how the word Yakiniku is not used for "Genghis Khan barbecue" here).--Endroit 02:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
ShinjukuXYZ's edits are interesting. He calls it "Origin of Yakiniku" in the "History" section. To me, it looks more like "History of the usage of the word Yakiniku". However, due to lack of sources, some of it may be difficult to salvage, but we'll see.
ShinjukuXYZ (or anybody else), can you look for sources of Kanagaki Robun's usage of the word Yakiniku in 1879?
(TRANSLATED partially) ShijukuXYZさん。１８７９年に、かながき・ろぶん氏が、「Barbecue」（バーベキュー）と言う単語を「焼き肉」に訳したと言う情報源を、見つけてください。宜しくお願いします。--Endroit 05:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Crikey, I cannot believe ShinjukuXYZ is still at it! See Talk:Japanese_cuisine. It is interesting to note that somewhere towards the start of this debate, dear old ShinjukuXYZ let it slip that Korean BBQ is now called yakiniku following disagreements in the 1960's between pro-North and pro-South businesses. I wonder if he stands by this. Phonemonkey 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent reverts

ShinjukuXYZ, we have taken what was good from your edits and included them in the article. However, your latest edits add nothing of value to the article. Suggesting that yakiniku isn't usually served with kimuchi and other Korean food items is pure lie, and any Japanese person knows it. Also, eating the meat wrapped in a lettuce is something I've seen in many yakiniku-yas in Japan (I was actually about to change it from "uncommon", but refrained because of the current situation). While I don't have any sources to prove this, anybody in Japan can have a look at their closest yakiniku-ya and see if they sell or don't sell kimuchi, and you know this is true. Also, your second edit, suggesting that during the Seoul Olympics, interest in authentic Japanese cuisine increased, what is that supposed to mean? There's no logic to it. Why would it?? Stop being so damn counterproductive. You have seen your edits become incorporated into the article. Do you think this is a signal to you that you can put whatever you want into the article and still get away with it? Unfortunately, the admin's have been unexplicably lenient on you, even though it has been proved that you are using sockpuppets. Do not expect this to last forever. Mackan 23:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If you put out the source, the problem will be solved. In the article on Yakiniku, whose am I sockpuppets?　I like discussion. Please give the discussion to Mackan willingly. I am not interested in the Mackan's personal attack. ("Idiot" that you wrote in my talkpage is left. ) thank you and byebye.--ShinjukuXYZ 07:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Even where there is a source, you choose to change things, such as "interest in genuine Japanese cuisine", that's not in the source. Also, we don't need sources for something we all know is true. Normally people wouldn't go about deleting stuff like that, but you do obviously not have honest intentions. Mackan 09:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Please do not write your conviction without the source. --ShinjukuXYZ 14:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm not. You aren't reading what I write. Nor are you reading the actual source. Mackan 15:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Source of Mackan

I'm not. You aren't reading what I write. Nor are you reading the actual source. Mackan 15:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

  • [10] - This is an explanation of Yakiniku-ya (Korean restaurant). It is not an explanation of Yakiniku
  • [11] -　This source doesn't have information on Yakiniku
  • [12] -　This source is a guide book of the restaurant in Bangkok
  • [13] Advertising page of Yakiniku restaurant Shokudoen in Japan.

I am very disappointed. （もう少し真面目にやろうや。いくらなんでも、これはヒドすぎ。）--Necmate 15:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Please be reminded that this is the English Wikipedia. While comments on users talk pages might very well be in Japanese, please make sure that comments on article's talk pages are kept in English so that people without any knowledge of Japanese also can follow the discussion.
Mackan says "I abuse the user in Japanese.[14] However, you must not criticize me. " I do not feel that his belief is beautiful. (言ってて恥ずかしくないんかな？)
Please sign your edits using four tilde. As I said, I see no problem in using Japanese on a user's talkpage, but please keep comments on article talk pages in English. Mackan 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree to your claims about the Bangkok link, the Shokudouen link and the itp.net source. If you look at my previous edit, you will see the only source I chose to include was the Japan Guide one (see [15]). Also, if your one gripe with the article is the sources, why did you revert all changes Phonemonkey made instead of adding a fact-tag? Also, the Japan-guide link has this to say about yakiniku-ya

"Yakiniku-ya
Yakiniku-ya specialize in Korean style barbecue, where small pieces of meat are broiled on a grill at the table. Other popular Korean dishes such as bibimba are usually also available at a yakiniku-ya."
Japan Guide is one of the largest English language sites on things Japanese and should be considered a reliable source. Yakiniku-ya means "Yakiniku restaurant" (as you very well know), so saying "do not confuse Yakiniku-Ya with Yakiniku" is just pure bullshit. This is the only source that needs to be included. Mackan 18:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an explanation of Yakiniku-ya (Korean restaurant). It is not an explanation of Yakiniku. (Please look at the source that you quoted about the reason that is called the Korean restaurant Yakiniku-ya. [16][17])
This Japanese source[18] has little information at the Meiji Period.Mackan, Please write after understanding the content of the source when you quote the source. --Necmate 12:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Necmate, you obviously don't understand English so there's no point in arguing with you. The source states that yakiniku comes from Korea, and that's the end of it.
Necmate, you obviously don't understand English so there's no point in arguing with you. The source states that yakiniku comes from Korea, and that's the end of it.　--Necmate 13:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, about.com is not a reliable source. The Japanese source you provided isn't a reliable source either, it's a private homepage. Mackan 14:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
About.com is a private homepage ? OK. Then, please rewrite the article on About.com.(可哀想なくらい墓穴ほりまくりやな～。)--Necmate 13:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
You are misunderstanding what I wrote. Also, as I've said before, please keep to English on article talk pages. That comment you made should not have been made in any language though. Look at what I wrote once more. Can you really not see that I'm talking about TWO sources? Let me quote myself, "The Japanese source you provided isn't a reliable source either, it's a private homepage". Since when is about.com a Japanese page? Mackan 22:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
About.com is a English page. And, it is not a personal page. However, you do not offer information on Yakiniku at all. --Necmate 17:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] fix

when I was trying to revert My computer messed something up :/ someone will have to fix up my mess, sorry Jegal 20:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

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