Talk:X Japan

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Contents

[edit] Since small fan sites all of the sudden don't count

http://www.chinaxfreak.com/xindex.htm There is a source for most of the indies stuff. http://www.befree1.net/index-new_english.htm here is a timeline of X's line-up

I have a proposal for all you people obsessed with citing everything, we'll try and cite more if you try and cut down on the elitism. Remember that we are dealing with something that happened in underground Japan over 20 years ago, there is isn't a source for everything. Small fan sites will be the best we can do for so things, foreign sites will be the best we can do for somethings. You will have to understand that. One last thing, why are we argueing the fact that Jun exists? Who in the hell would go through the trouble to doctor 20 year old pictures and then somehow get them on every X site in the world? Come on now have some faith. --The one who watches over hide's articles. 16:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article cleanup/talk page archive created

Roughly half of the article has been cleaned up in terms of grammar, style, wiki links and most importantly, verifiability. I would also like to point out that despite a lot of uncited information which went overboard, it was actually rather easy to find several references for the remaining content and in English no less. I am stressing this because future additions to the article will have to come with proper citations, the claim that essential information regarding this band cannot be verified with independent (and preferably English) sources is neither very productive nor true. On a side note, the talk page was becoming rather long, so I have created an archive. - Cyrus XIII 13:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Why removing all the indies era, it was probably the most important era and you ahve rmeoved it, why? It's really impossible to find sources of that, be aware of that, but we have the information books on the albums and this stuff. 81.184.87.120 21:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Uh... There're still some grammar mistakes. I spotted one right from the beginning.Angerona 08:10, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted some changes

I have added again the indie era information and with a citation to Jun's official site were you cand find that they really released that singles before, and that the band was created long before, etc. and that we don't lie. 62.57.22.131 21:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

This is the last time I will revert your edits before requesting protection for the article. The reasons should have been obvious, though apparently this is not the case.
a) A Geocities home page that could have been created by anyone with any content for any purpose does hardly constitute a reliable source. It is self-published material and in this case not backed by any of the more credible outlets of information, such as the various official websites which you have removed for the most part, which b) could be considered vandalism. c) Even if this single source was of any use, it would not in any way support all the information contained in the several kilobyte of text you have re-introduced. And unverified information can be removed if an editor choses to do so. - Cyrus XIII 00:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, but i lined to a frame of Jun's official website, is this one: http://www.geocities.jp/takaihisashi2005/ 62.57.22.131 13:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Fixed, now there's proper citations. Darkcat21 19:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources that Jun exists, he's not a ghost.

Hi, here i'll put a list of sources that you can find that Jun is a person, that he's not a human created by me, first of all, all the others X Japan Wikipedia's articles have Jun on their list of former members, and they talk about him, check swedish version, japanese, spanish, etc. Then we have other sources... Orgasm single you can see on the cover a man next to Yoshiki, uh, who's him? Jun!!. Then we have some videos:

Just to give an example, then we have also this: http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=2150

 Former/past member(s)
Guitar:
Hisashi "Jun" Takai (Rommel)
Izumi "Terry" Youji (ex-Mein Kampf)
Tomoyuki, Satoru
Eddie (The Wretched (Jpn))
Guitar - Hideto "Hide" Matsumoto (R.I.P. 2nd May 1998, suicide by hanging) (ex-Yokosuka Saver Tiger,   Zilch)
Bass:
Yasushi "Taiji" Sawada (ex-Loudness, Kings, Dirty Trashroad)
Hikaru, Atsushi

Uh, great. Then we have also this, it's a fan site but just take a look: http://www.geocities.com/bigkingpogo/ It contains pic of Jun and lot of info, cool, he's also inventing that guy, actually I'm the one in the photos..., no I'm not, he's Jun a former member of X Japan, but actually the best source is this one: http://www.geocities.jp/takaihisashi2005/ , his official site. Come on Jun exists! Darkcat21 22:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. This best source (as I have stated numerous times by now) does not qualify as a reliable source per WP:RS, it is self-published material, neither backed by the official website of the band nor those of the former members which we can be certain about. The other references you have introduced in this dispute are no better, as they all rely on user contributed content. Given that the flow of information between Japan and the band's non-Japanese fans is not only hampered by the years which have passed since the group's split but also a considerable language barrier, widespread gossip and misinformation would come as no surprise. Any further discussion on this particular matter should take place on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jun (musician).
Still, any source regarding the supposed former member, reliable or not, does not support the bulk of content you have re-introduced, it also does not justify the changes you made in the external links section. This I have also previously stated and you have chosen to ignore it. I would strongly suggest you to read WP:OWN and WP:NOT, while I am putting in for a third opinion in order to get this dispute sorted out. - Cyrus XIII 00:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Well what do you know, here is Jun on the orgasm single link --The one who watches over hide's articles. 17:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, what do you know...
  • The site is not accessible.
  • A consensus regarding Jun has already been established and the article was deleted.
  • In the age of Photoshop, images on a personal homepage can hardly be considered reliable sources.
  • Trying to weigh in on a discussion with a signature that suggests fandom-induced bias is probably not the best of ideas.
- Cyrus XIII 17:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

Hrm, I would like to help out and provide a Third opinion on this subject, but I must admit I am a bit unfamiliar with the topic. From a brief scroll through the edit history it does look like the information that was added was poorly sourced. Question for either editor in the dispute: Can you point me towards reliable secondary source(s) for the information in question? Smee 08:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC).

Thanks for adding the section header, Athaenara ! Smee 09:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
You're welcome! —Æ. ✉ 09:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your time. Given that the purpose of the recent rewrite was to have the article conform better with WP:V (the last revision before the edit war would be this one), I am really not aware of sources for the re-introduced information, other than a few fansites which do not present their sources, Wikipedia articles in other languages (equally lacking in references) and aforementioned self-published GeoCities page, none of which strikes me as particularly reliable. - Cyrus XIII 09:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

That is true: neither Wikipedia articles (in any language) nor self-published personal pages (such as geocities hosts) fulfill the requirements of Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Athænara ✉ 09:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Postscript: I have never edited this article and am not involved in any disputes about it. I merely commented on the veracity of a specific assertion. —Æ. ✉ 10:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Hrm, though I agree with the editors above, let's allow time for the other editor involved in this dispute to respond. Smee 09:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
I second the postscript - I too have never edited this article and am not involved in disputes about it. Smee 18:23, 19 January 2007 (UTC).
I do not want to suggest any undue hurry, but seeing that it has been well over 24 hours since Smee's call for recess, during which the other editor has been quite active, even in a closely related dispute, can we agree that a consensus on the matter has been reached? - Cyrus XIII 09:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Hrm, perhaps you are correct. I would suggest to wait another 24 hours and no more - and then that would seem fair warning. Smee 15:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
I'd like to point out a source here that can be used to verify a good amount of the information (All Music Guide's information about musicians is considered a very reliable source). ShadowHalo 23:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Hrm, that does seem like a reliable source to me. Smee 23:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
Certainly well written and apparently with a staff of professionals behind it. The notion of the band founders already actively performing "though not even teenagers at the time" is rather odd and the information in the third paragraph is a bit all over the place, but if AMG sources have previously weighed in on Wikipedia content discussions, I am not going to dispute it. - Cyrus XIII 00:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to add though, that upon reading the text a second time, I found a few peculiar inaccuracies: "Rusty Nail" is hardly a "shocking and hard-driving speed metal number" (more like mid-tempo hard rock) and Hide never released a single titled "Lemoned" ("Lemoned I Scream" only appeared as a B-side on "Misery").[1] Any thoughts on that? - Cyrus XIII 00:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Information like that about individual songs or albums is usually treated as a review and, especially information about individual songs, is less likely to be included in articles about the band itself. The best use for an article like this is to verify a band's history (founding, biographical information, members) as well as information about the band's success and general musical style. ShadowHalo 01:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't have ready access to it right now, but I have read a tracklisting that included a song called "Lemoned". If I can find where it existed, I'll say something else. Vespertilio 2:29, 22 January 2007 (—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.4.24.73 (talk • contribs) 10:32, 22 January 2007.
The compilation hide's album PSYENCE included the single レモネード・アイ・スクリーム(チョコ・チップ・ヴァージョン) (5. LEMONED I SCREAM) Source: http://www.hide-city.com/free/discography/al_MVCD-39.html and Lemoned I Scream was included for the first time as Cyrus have said, B-side of Misery, so there's no single called Lemoned. Darkcat21 13:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
I have been asked to provide an opinion as to giving this page semi-protection. I think it would be a good idea to test this out, providing y'all can act in a civil manner, stick to citing information from reputable secondary sources, and discuss issues here on the talk page. Smee 11:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC).
Alright, the article's protection has been lowered to semi and I have added the All Music Guide source. - Cyrus XIII 01:12, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reunion speculation

Shortly after the article's protection downgrade, Darkcat21 has added information regarding a potential reunion of the group, with a Japanese (meaning not immediately verifiable) source. Given this user's history of adding unreliable and even unrelated sources, I am going to remove that bit for now and ask an editor with advanced Japanese skills to verify the genuineness of the reference. I would also like to think that information of this magnitude - if it is genuine - will find its way to English news outlets soon enough. - Cyrus XIII 14:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I am a fluent speaker of Japanese, and the aritle that was posted as a reference that X-Japan would reunite actually said that there was NO chance of X-Japan reuniting. The whole thing needs to be disregarded. The band that Yoshiki is doing with Gackt may be something similar, but there is NO X-Japan reunion, nor will there ever be. Grayzkule 04:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe you, for the most part because it's your first contribution here. 81.184.81.239 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have added a reference to a Japanese newspaper (http://chuspo.chunichi.co.jp/00/hou/20070212/spon____hou_____000.shtml) and if you don't believe it, here you've the cover from today (http://chuspo.chunichi.co.jp/00/phot/20070212/sports.jpg) and if you think that it's a photomonatge here you have the site: http://chuspo.chunichi.co.jp/ Darkcat21 14:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's see: Weighing in on a discussion through an anonymous IP and a registered account (potential sock puppetry), assuming both bad faith and outright misinformation from a newcomer and then persistently re-adding a previously discounted reference (not just by Grayzkule, Nihonjoe could not confirm its supposed content either), while adding yet another not immediately verifiable source. Your behavior is way out of line, Darkcat21 and this does not seem to occur to you even in the slightest. - Cyrus XIII 14:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't see how the citation is genuinely disputed; the only disgareement came from a throwaway account (this was its first and oonly edit). Cyrus XIII, you're surely being unreasonable here — please stop removing the info.
Darkcat21, your refusal to use edit summaries makes it more much likely that your edits are reverted; please start using them. they're required for all edits, not least as a courtesy to other editors. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this, I have gone through the article, as well as the discography and have seen no 2007 activity, so is there any actual citing of the "2007 - present" under the active years? Ambrosia- 08:07, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

There used to be some vague announcement of reunion negotiations on the singer's website, but it has since vanished, hence the speculative content was removed again, though I must have missed the bit in the infobox. Thanks for pointing that out. - Cyrus XIII 10:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The need for sources is based on the criteria of verifiability; if an addition is made to the article, and a reputable source is given, it doesn't matter if the source later disappears (though any link to it should then be removed) — it's done its job. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 15:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this time we're both wrong (see Wikipedia:Citing sources#What to do when a reference link "goes dead"). I will dig/ask around again later tonight and see if any secondary, English source will turn up for reader convenience. - Cyrus XIII 16:05, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah, with regard to what should be done with the reference, good point. What I said about the material for which the reference is a source, though, stands surely. That the link is now dead doesn't affect the fact that it provided a verifiable source. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:10, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I can't figure out how to edit the article.

So maybe someone who can can help me out here. It's really bothering me, the way that they've capitalized hide's name; hide's name is NOT CAPITALIZED. It's either Hideto Matsumoto (with capitals) or hide (no capitals). Okay? Emilyemergency 06:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

You can't edit the album because it has been protected against editing by un-logged-in and new editors. Although I tend to agree about the use of the capital, it's not that simple; different publications (print and on-line) have their own Style Manuals. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:52, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits

A detailed rationale for everyone who requires it:

  • While probably every fan of the band wants the resumed collaboration of the founding members to be a reunion, the recent announcement on the singer's website speaks of a "new project", so any premature speculation on an actual reunion of X Japan belongs into web forums and chat rooms, not in the article.
  • The Manual of Style states that proper names are always capitalized, so they are here.
  • Unicode dashes are favorable over cryptic/deprecated HTML stand-ins.
  • Sony Records and Sony Music Entertainment Japan are separate companies since the Sony BMG merger.
  • The example given in the infobox manual uses the shorted variant of the official web link, which makes sense, given that all websites use the HTTP protocol.
  • The romanized Japanese names of the artists (in the lineup section) are put into italics to achieve coherency with the formatting provided by the Nihongo template. The template itself is not used multiple times over, as repeating it in this context would not improve the article.
  • The vast majority of Wikipedia articles gives its references in the smaller font and with a title/simple summary.

- Cyrus XIII 00:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

This is, at least in part, disingenuous.
  1. Rather than removing the text, it should be modified in line with the source.
  2. There has, and still is (as Cyrus XIII knows) disagreement concerning the capitalisation of names that the user doesn't capitalise. I'm unaware of any consensus.
  3. The MoS itself uses HTML dashes in its examples; they're much easier to distinguish in the editing box, while being indistinguishable from Unicode dashes in articles.
  4. I'm happy with the change to the Sony link, if it's accurate.
  5. This is a distortion of the issue over the link in the infobox.
  6. No problem with italicisation (I think that it's unnecessary, but it's unimportant)
  7. The majority of article don't use small references, that's not how the guidelines give it, and there have been many rejections of the style in the past as making things unnecessarily difficult for readers with visual impairment, or using small screens.
In addition, the insistence on capitals for instruments in the line-up list goes ahainst Wikipedia standards. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 10:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I will just skip the bad faith insinuation and reply to the points:
  • The article text has been modified, in accordance to the latest, officially released information on the subject. That announcement neither mentions the band this article is about (or any band whatsoever) nor a "reunion" so calling it that (and including it with fanfares in the first paragraph) is simply speculative (see WP:CRYSTAL).
  • So you consider it good and productive practice as an editor to simply disregard both
    "As proper nouns these names are always first-letter capitalized"
    and
    "The consensus of many editors formed the conventions described here, and Wikipedia articles should heed these guidelines."
    and revert edits by users who happen to respect the current set of rules, instead of putting in for respective guideline changes in the appropriate places? You are right, there is a controversy, a clear consensus on this matter has yet to form, but neither has any move been made to change present guideline text, so why should editors refrain from applying it to articles in the meantime? After all, some of your objections are based on the Manual of Style and "Wikipedia standards" as well.
  • Quoted from the top of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dashes):
    "Now that Wikipedia uses UTF-8, these can be entered directly into the article markup. To enter an em dash or an en dash after your cursor, for instance, you can click the "—" or "–" link, respectively, below the edit box."
  • Quoted from Template:Infobox musical artist:
    "| URL = [http://www.mariahcarey.com www.mariahcarey.com]"
  • I'd like to read more on the reference formatting issue, would you kindly provide links to the respective guideline text and discussions?
- Cyrus XIII 16:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Note the difference between "can" and "should". Note also the fact that (as you know) you're quoting very selectively, and ignoring the many discussions of this issue, in which you participated.

Wikipedia:Citing sources#Footnotes, says: "Place the references/> tag in a "Notes" or "References" section near the end of the article—the list of notes will be generated here." --Mel Etitis (Talk) 16:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I remember those discussions. I also remember they did not go anywhere in months, that you were unable to argue your point based on current Wikipedia guideline and policy text (but made no attempt to have it changed either) and that you also made the fairly strange suggestion (since it promotes inconsistency) that such typographic eccentricities should override standard English text formatting within but not at the beginning of a sentence. So I'm afraid the word "selectively" might rather apply to your own rhetoric and it also comes to mind whenever you chose to simply not reply to certain points made by the other party in a discussion, which regrettably, happens quite often.
Regarding the references: So where does it say that it this line of code should not be enhanced to display citations smaller than normal text, there is after all, the CSS class "references-small" and I'm afraid it is used in some form in most of this month's featured articles. - Cyrus XIII 17:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, I'd forgotten the inept snideness hat characterises your message. I hadn't missed it though. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

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