Template talk:WPMIXInfobox

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Main article: Wikipedia:WikiProject Cocktails/Templates/Proposals

Contents

[edit] Initial proposal

I feel it would be extremely helpful if all the mixed drinks, particularly cocktails, featured in this WikiProject could have a standardised introduction featuring basic information such as, in no particular order:

  • Name
  • Primary source of alcohol (where appropriate)
  • Brief list of ingredients and quantities (see this page for a discussion of the format of said quantities)
  • Prefered glassware
  • A picture
  • Whether or not it's an IBA Official Cocktail, perhaps through the inclusion of an IBA logo (with link to IBA)

The most convenient method of arranging this information in a standard way would appear to be in a template. Assuming that others agree that a template would be necessary and/or helpful, the purpose of this page is to create such a template.

Happy-melon 13:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modified proposal

As Happy-melon guessed, something like this has been on my mental to-do list and the Project's to-do list for quite a while. Not quite the way Happy envisioned, but close. The reason for the difference is to better match Wikipedia's established standards for presenting this type of information. Basically, we need to implement this template as a standard Infobox. Standard does not mean boring or non-customized. It just means that it fits within the standards the rest of Wikipedia as agreed to.

If you aren't familiar with the term infobox, you are probably familiar with the results. Much like the navigation box in the upper right corner of this page, an infobox is a table that displays information about a specific topic in a standardized format. This allows people browsing through the Wikipedia to quickly identify common pages, find useful information, and present facts (like the standard recipe) without necessarily having to write in entirely encyclopedic fashion (one of the biggest challenges we face in dealing with drink recipes and the WP:NOTE#IINFO guideline that says not to include recipes).

The infobox is fairly simple to implement and looks good, too. It gives a standard look and feel to articles within our Project's scope, and it improves our visibility in a positive way in mainspace. (We can't really mention the WikiProject, but it's obvious that the Project is behind the template and thus the article.)

--Willscrlt (Talk|Cntrb) 02:13, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

[edit] First thoughts

Before we consider the cosmetic appearance of the template, we must decide on what information it will contain, as these will have to be included as parameters in the template code. This will be slightly awkward as the number of ingredients varies from drink to drink. I'm not sure how best to work round this: probably the best thing is to place the 'compulsory' parameters (like name, glassware, primary spirit etc) first, and then an unlimited (or large) number of optional parameters at the end for the ingredients. I'm not fantastically well versed with template code so I'm not 100% sure how that'll work, but IIRC it should. Regardless, choice of the information fields which need to be included is by far the most pressing concern. Comments and Suggestions please. Happy-melon 13:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately there are well over 100 of infobox templates (see Cat:Infobox templates for examples) from which we can borrow ideas for this. I am more than happy to make the template, but honestly, I'd rather see someone (like Happy-melon) take a stab at it first, and then I can help with any cleanup or removal of quirky things that might come up.
Create the template at Template:WPMIXInfobox and any documentation at Template:WPMIXInfobox/doc, and I will help merge the two together. Don't worry about the <noinclude> or <includeonly> tags at first, because that can get a little tricky. Just work on the structure and appearance.
I would suggest the following order for sections:
First colored section (pale yellow background to contrast standard monobook theme color)
  • Standard IBA name (if there is one) or the most commonly accepted name of the drink (which hopefully matches the article title)
  • A category of IBA Official Cocktail, cocktail, shooter, beer mix, wine mix, fortified wine, non-alcoholic mixed drink, mixed drink (for eggnog and other drinks that tend to be served both ways about equally) - with the category linked to the main "List of..." article for that section (for easy navigation around the articles).
  • A photograph that represents the standard appearance of the drink in its most traditional form. It should be served in the standard drinkware.
Second colored section (pale tan background to slightly set-off this section from the other two)
  • Primary alcohol(s) that make up the majority of the drink (this section is omitted in non-alc)
  • A very brief how-to: shaken with ice and strained, on-the-rocks, etc.
  • Standard drinkware used. I would like to see a small template to be created for each type of drinkware that includes a tiny photo, standard volume of the vessel, and the name. That would be a separate set of proposals.
  • Standard cocktail garnishes used with this drink.
Yes, place the standards before the actual recipe so that people can see that information in a glance before reading the recipe, even if it is a little redundant. A slight change in color between the sections might help distinguish the parts of the infobox.
Third colored section (return to the pale yellow background)
  • The standard ingredients and measurements. If an IBA Official Cocktail recipe exists, then that is always the one used here. This information will be removed from the articles themselves once the infobox is implemented in the article.
  • Concise preparation instructions that describes the order and any caveats. Again, use the IBA instructions if they are available rather than writing our own.
  • Possibly a link to one or two standard drink sites (like drinkboy.com) that to which we can all agree is a good site to send visitors. The film and TV projects do this to IMDB for example. It could seriously cut down on External Link cruft by doing that, but it could also be a bit controversial without clear consensus.
The color scheme is entirely optional. I just like seeing something that contrasts a bit so it shows up well, is easy to read, looks good behind most photos, and helps divide the sections subtly without looking like we are trying to divide them.
One concern is that the infobox has to remain fairly short vertically. If the infobox is longer than the article, the article will look like a stub, even if there is good information in it. By moving recipe information to the infobox, some of the articles will be reduced in size by up to a half. That indicates the article is weak, and it could result in a fresh round of AFD nominations for articles on which we are working to improve. Just something to be careful of, without really worrying about it too much. --Willscrlt (Talk|Cntrb) 02:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I've made a start, copying the code for the generic infobox and hacking it down to size, but it's very heavy going for me and I'm a little short of time at the moment. To be honest, template coding is not my cup of tea. If somene can knock it at least into enough shape that we know the names of the parameters, they can continue tidying it up while I start the easy (if boring) job of adding it to each cocktail. That's the sort of thing I can do: one at a time in my free time. So if we can just get it sufficiently coded to know what parameters can be used, I'll get to work on the implementation, but I'm not sure how much more use I can be on the coding itself.
Hey, I appreciate you giving it a shot (shooter?) :-) I hopefully will have enough time to work on it tonight. I'm anxious to also work on the Project Header, which would be a great companion template for you to add as you work through the articles tagging them with the infobox. Naturally, I will help with that task, too. We have a month and a half left in the Cleanup Project, and there are still some AFD-nominated and cocktail-micro-talk articles that need cleanup and rewriting before they get deleted by frustrated individuals. I don't want to take too long on templates, but I think they are important to get roughly right to start with. I'm very thankful for your help Happy-melon. :-) --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 05:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demonstration and feeback

Alright. I have just created one of the most sophisticated Infoboxes I have seen in any of the other WikiProjects. I'm sure there are some Infoboxes that were more complex to program, but this has got to be fairly high up there. I definitely owe a big debt of thanks to the developers at The Beatles WikiProject for giving me lots of ideas and some sample code to tweak. This should also help get the Project Header template rolling again. :-)

Please look at the examples I have setup. These are close to the actual infobox I would place on the Whiskey Sour article. Naturally, I would not include "flaming" or the silly notes at the bottom, but it should give you a pretty good feel for what the infobox can do.

One of the really, really neat things (IMO) is that you simply list the type of alcohol (whiskey=yes or cognac=yes), and it figures out all the links for you (is it [[Cognac]], [[Cognac (drink)|]], or something else?). PLUS it also picks the correct category for the drink. That's right, no need to worry about adding categories manually now (in fact, it's probably better not to) as long as you have identified the correct type of primary alcohol.

These are the attributes (the tags) you can select from for the primary alcohol: beer, brandy, cognac, gin, rum, sake, tequila, vodka, bourbon, canadian (Canadian whisky), irishw (Irish whiskey), scotch, tennessee, whiskey, whisky, champagne, port, sparkling, wine, absinthe, amaretto, cacao (Creme de cacao), cachaça, campari, cider, curaçao, everclear, irishc (Irish Creme), jäger, menthe (Creme de menthe), moonshine, pastis, pisco, pucker, sambuca, schnapps, other. If I left anything out, please let me know.

And what about those oddball alcohols that didn't make the list? You can use the "other" type (other=[[Example]]), and it will link to it and place the drink in the "Less common spirits" category. Or, you could just refer to the article text (other=See the article for details), if it explains it there.

The only glitch I see at the moment is if there are multiple types of alcohol. In that case, both are listed, but there is no space between them, and the words run together. I'm sure it's something I can fix. At any rate, except for a few drinks like a Long Island Iced Tea, most drinks are only going to have one (maybe two) 'primary alcohols by volume. We should restrain ourselves and only list one, unless the top alcohols are equal in volume.

The IBA designation is also fairly automatic, adding the designation at the top, and changing some of the colors to a gold tone. The "ingredients" also change to indicate that it is an official list, not just the standard way of making it.

I split flaming beverages out as a separate attribute, because you can have flaming cocktails and flaming shooters (and probably flaming other things, too). This way you can double-tag the drink at once.

The infobox is also flexible enough that you can leave out all the alcohol-related stuff and use it on garnish and drinkware pages, too. Just use the notes attribute is you need to explain anything. I do plan to eventually make a more specific one for drinkware, but for now, this is a good start in that direction.

I know the font size is a little small. If it's too small, tell me and I can tweak it. There's just a lot of information that I am trying to get across in limited space. As I feared, by moving that information to an infobox, the Whiskey Sour article will be pretty much gutted. I'm not sure to do about that, because it really will look stubbish and might be deleted because it is assumed that there is no information in the article. There are other drinks that might end up in even worse shape.

I guess that's the risk we have to take. It will really help us to assess the quality of our articles. If we look and see a lot of wide open space on the page aside from the infobox, we know we have an article that needs a lot of work.

I still have to write the full documentation and quash any bugs anyone finds.

So, are there any feature requests? Any nits to pick? Any bugs you see (other than those I've mentioned)? Any other comments?

--Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 15:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Responses

That, Willscrlt, is the most impressive single template I've yet seen on Wikipedia. Admittedly I haven't been specifically looking, but the power that this offers is simply phenomenal. I have no requests or suggestions other than the bugs you've already mentioned - it has more features than I could have ever dreamed of. Thank god for national holidays! You've certainly used your time well.... Many thanks, Happy-melon 19:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bug alerts

[edit] March of the phantom numbers

Having started deploying your excellent template from the top of the list of cocktails, I have found that this seems to appear at the top of every page:

"{{#ifexpr: 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 >= 1 |"

Or variations thereof, with the 1(s) in different places. Any idea what that might mean?? I almost threw up looking at the template code so I haven't the foggiest! However it seems incredibly simple to implement and display, so fantastic work. I've halted my implementation drive at The Blenheim until I work out why it doesn't work for some reason on that one page... almost certainly human error!! Happy-melon 15:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yup. It's fixed now. One silly little "}" was missing, and it caused all that gobbledygook to appear. There are probably hundreds of "}"s in the template, so it took me a while to track it down. You might have noticed certain parts of the template disappearing and reappearing for a while. Sorry about that. I had to make a change to the template because the auto-categorizing feature was causing problems on some places that should not have been tagged as mixed drinks. Now there is an attribute that suppresses auto-categories, which is great in the demos. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 16:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcelink

Having (I think) finished adding infoboxes to all the cocktails on the list, I'm now synchronising the list of IBA cocktails here with the list at IBA HQ. To that end, I'm adding sourcelinks (a very clever feature BTW, so many thanks) to the template code. However on many occasions the link spills onto two lines, which end up on top of one another and look very messy (eg Appletini). In other cases, half the link is lost under the bottom of the infobox (eg in Bronx). Not sure what the exact problem is, and not a clue how to fix it, but hopefully something you can fix?? Congratulations again, however, on an excellent job with this infobox. Happy-melon 10:51, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Implementation issues

[edit] Multiple cocktails on same page

I'm not sure how best to implement this template on the numerous cocktails which redirect to sections of the amaretto page. I think it will look awkward to have a huge list of infoboxes down the side of that page, so perhaps implementation there will have to wait until their sections are bulked up a bit. Any comments? Happy-melon 18:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That was one of which I was already aware that would be a problem. I have two thoughts on it.
  1. Include one infobox for the three IBA cocktails, listing all three in one infobox. Use a separate infoboxes for the coffe. Merge Amaretto Sour and Whiskey Sour together into an article on sours (resulting in two infoboxes there, since Whiskey Sour is an IBA), and kill off the Silverlake due to lack of notability.
  2. Since it is primarily an article on Amaretto, do not include any WPMIXInfobox templates at all, and continue to use the IBA badge to identify the IBA cocktails.

This will be a problem for a few other articles, too. See the to-do list for at least two other articles that will include multiple drinks on the same page.

I just had another thought: I could create a horizontal infobox to be placed at the top or bottom of a section. It would serve the same purpose, but design it in a way that it takes up as little space as possible so that it fits in-line with the rest of the article and does not "stack up" along the right-hand side of the page. {{WPMIXInfoboxHoriz}} would probably be a good name to clearly distinguish it. How does that sound? --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 22:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I like this idea. For the moment I'll skip these problem cocktails. I'm using the revision as of 01:01 15th January, so I can see which new additions also need boxing up. Happy-melon 10:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
It might actually be a good idea to go by the categories as much or more than the List of cocktails (gasp!), since it is theoretically "current" since it is dynamic. On the other hand, it doesn't designate IBA drinks, and there's no guarantee I ever tagged all the articles on the list with the category tags. I guess the best thing is to stick with the list for now, but then go through the categories for anything that was missed, since the Infobox will add drinks to the correct categories. I wonder if it would be prudent to remove the cocktails/mixed drink categories from the bottom of the pages since they are dynamically created by the infobox? Hmmm. I don't know the Wikipedia policy on that. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 10:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
That's the plan... eventually!! Right now I'm down to Vesper, so I am getting there... slowly!! At least my professors can rest assured that they are (indirectly) contributing to the sum total of human knowledge Hehe!! Happy-melon 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Due to some changes in the Beer mix (now Beer cocktail) section, I have tagged several of those with infoboxes. Here is how I have handled a few things (i.e. some changes and new features):

  • See Cerveza preparada for one article using two infoboxes in the same article.
  • There is a new type of drink (type = layered) for layered shooters.
  • All shooters, layered shooters, and any drink using a shot glass for the primary drinkware gets tagged as a shot/shooter even if it is also flagged as something else (previously it was either/or).
  • Several beer cocktails use two types of glasses: a pint/pub glass and a shot glass. I created (drinkware = pintshot) and (drinkware = pubshot) to handle those. It lists both types of drinkware in the same article (see Boilermaker (cocktail)).

Let me know if there are other customizations that you run across that would make your work much, much easier. Especially if you have to "write your own" descriptions for something that is likely to not be a one-time-only sort or situation. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 09:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of duplicate info

I noticed that as Happy-melon is installing the Infobox, there is a lot of duplicated information (double recipes which is bound to attract attention due to WP:NOT#IINFO). Please remove any list of ingredients and preparation instructions that are in the body of the article when you install the infobox. That will reduce some articles to tiny little stubs, but that's okay, because it shows which articles really need work. If such articles are not already tagged as stubs, please add {{mixed-drink-stub}} or {{cocktail-stub}} as appropriate. (Wow! The Bronx looked horrible after gutting it and moving things to the infobox[1]. It looks a lot better after a some additional research[2].) --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 02:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I shall try to do so. Happy-melon 10:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Believe me when I say I REALLY appreciate all the help you are putting into this. I wasn't criticizing, and you should feel good about how much better the articles are looking already. :-) --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 10:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I appreciate it. Removing the recipes is flagging up just how thin some of the articles are though!! Lots more work needed I think! Happy-melon 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standard information

Also, Happy-melon, on the IBA Official Cocktails are you using the recipes inside the articles or fetching the ones from the IBA itself[3]. All IBA cocktails should use the IBA recipes and prep instructions. I ask because Caipirinha had the right ingredients, but the instructions were wrong. (Original[4] and updated[5]). If you like, I can go back and update the information that has already been put in, but if you could use the IBA information for the rest you do, that would be great. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 02:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been using the official recipes, but I shall in future. Thankyou for that link - it can be tricky to work out from the content of the article which is the IBA recipe. I don't think I've actually boxed up that many IBA official cocktails (Bronx, Caipirinha and Brandy Alexander) so it shouldn't be too difficult to correct this oversight. I like the "Xcl (Y parts)" format as well. When I get to an IBA cocktail, I'll try to put it in this format.Happy-melon 10:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking of maybe adding a direct link to the IBA recipe on the IBA page next to our Wikipedia linked title. Confusing or helpful do you think? Especially since we will have the recipe in the article? As to the measurements, that's generally what I have been doing with IBA's. Though originally (well, before you brought it up for discussion) I was using fl oz measurements instead of parts in that spot. The goal is the same, though. Give something general in addition to the metrics.
One other thing I thought of is that if the article is really short (especially once the recipe and prep info are removed), if it's not an IBA cocktail, then the prep instructions probably do not need to include the drinkware or garnish since they are already mentioned above in the infobox. It could save a little space, making the infobox smaller, so the article doesn't get dwarfed by the infobox. It's not critical or anything, and probably some people would rather see more information there than less. I guess it's a judgment call as you write it up. --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 10:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to keep the preparation column as minimalistic as possible - I'm trying not to include the actual type of glass, for instance, just saying "stir into chilled glass" rather than "stir into chilled cocktail glass". Incidentally on the subject of glasses, does the zombie glass have a specific purpose. When the recipe calls for a "tall glass" I'm torn between the zombie and the highball glass. Usually I go for highball but perhaps zombie might be a better choice, unless it's a special glass for a specific drink or type of drinks. Any further information on the mysterious Zombie glass?? Happy-melon 20:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The only drink I know for certain that uses the Zombie glass is the Zombie cocktail (apparently the reason for the name). Compared to the Highball, it's skinnier and I think a bit taller. I do plan to add the measurements of the various glasses to the Infobox so that it will be obvious as to how much the thing is supposed to hold. When I do, it will automagically update on all the infoboxes once I update the template. I love those templates. :-) --Willscrlt (Talk·Cntrb) 23:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
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