Talk:Worcester, Massachusetts

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[edit] Bancroft School

Note by [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC) The following material was merged from a submission entitled Bancroft School. The material merged is the work of a single anonymous author, created in four closely-spaced edits on 5 Nov 2004 as follows: (cur) (last) 23:00, 5 Nov 2004 68.186.241.5 (cur) (last) 22:59, 5 Nov 2004 68.186.241.5 (cur) (last) 22:57, 5 Nov 2004 68.186.241.5 (cur) (last) 22:44, 5 Nov 2004 68.186.241.5

 The Bancroft School of [[Worcester]], [[Massachusetts]], founded in 1901 is a K through 12 private school.
 It is located on Shore Drive, across the road from [[Indial Lake (Massachusetts)|Indian Lake]].
 {{stub}}
 ==External Links==
 *[http://www.bancroftschool.org/ Bancroft School]

I will now do minor cleanup in a separate edit. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 16:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A new Bancroft School page is up and functioning. It has grown beyond its initial stub status which was the reason it was merged into this entry. --Gopple 22:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports

I copied the Worcester IceCats info to its own page, which is how the other AHL teams are organized. Econrad 20:49, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] County seat

Let's talk about whether Fitchburg is a county seat here, rather than perpetually re-reverting.

It seems clear that at some point in the past, Fitchburg was one of two county seats of Worcester County. Most recently, it is shown as a county seat on a county map produced by the Massachusetts Secretary of State's office in January 2004. There are two registries of deeds in Worcester County, one in Worcester ("Worcester") and one in Fitchburg ("Worcester Northern").

It is also clear that it is possible for a county to have multiple seats. (64.63.214.105 cites a page showing two such counties to buttress his assertion that no such counties exist; on that page, however, Worcester is shown as the only county seat.)

Now, I'm not arguing that Fitchburg is still a county seat; it may well not be, and given how it's population has dwindled, it probably isn't. BUT I'd like to see something a bit more authoritative than "I live here" or "my neighbor has papers that say...." Isn't there a page on the Sec. of State's website that lists county seats, and doesn't list Fitchburg (for example)? The date when Fitchburg stopped being a county seat would be an interesting tidbit to add to the article. ("Since 19xx, Worcester has been the only county seat...")

-Rjyanco 13:50, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I went looking for my own answer. There is a page at [1] that lists Fitchburg as a county seat. So that makes two pages at the Secrtary of State's website saying Fitchburg is a county seat. Take it up with Bill Galvin if you want, but barring more authoritative information, I think we need to keep Fitchburg listed as a county seat.

-Rjyanco 13:58, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

FWIW, the 1911 EB refers to Fitchburg as "one of the county-seats of Worcester county". It is described the same way in my copy of The New Practical Reference Library (1916). The Columbia Gazeteer [2] and [3] also lists it as as a county seat. So it seems that Worchester county may indeed have had two seats and that Fitchburg was one of them. I'm not sure if it is accurate to use the present tense to describe it as such though. older≠wiser 15:02, Nov 22, 2004 (UTC)
I'll be in Worcester over the holiday. I'll see if I can find someone on the phone who can give me an answer and, ideally, point me to some definitive document that I can go look at in the library or the county clerk's office. If we eventually conclude that certain county functions are performed out of an office in Fitchburg, it would be worth editing this article and Fitchburg's to specify the division of duties. (It may be no more than a branch office of the registrar of deeds in Fitchburg.) JamesMLane 16:08, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am disappointed in User:Rjyanco's tone towards me. Frankly, I find it arrogant that someone would dismiss my nearly three decades of experience with Worcester because someone screwed up a list at the Secretary of State's office. Moving on, I am willing to accept that, perhaps at one point in history, Fitchburg was the county seat. But Worcester was the county seat when the county was dissolved a few years ago. Counties have only one seat at a time. Looking in my phone books from 1990, the Worcester County Commissioners were listed in Worcester (508-798-7700). This number is now disconnected, but a web search on this number further shows that Worcester was the county seat. 64.63.214.197 01:57, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Counties have only one seat at a time. So you're saying that the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica, 1916 The New Practical Reference Library, and the Columbia Gazeteer all got this wrong? They all pretty unambiguously imply that at one time both were county seats. older≠wiser 04:19, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't know what criteria those sources used to determine what a county seat is. Maybe they conclude that because there is a substantial county office located in Fitchburg, it must also be a county seat. My straightforward criteria of the county is where the county commissioners met. Indeed, several offices are not in Worcester (the county jail is in Boylston, the county cemetery is in Paxton). Perhaps these sources keyed in on the locations of the superior courts in Worcester county, but superior court does not equal county seat. 64.63.214.155 05:11, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm certainly no expert here; I just want to see the article have its facts straight. 64.63.214.197's information about the dissolution of the county sounds interesting, and I hope it is incorporated into the Worcester County article.
Concerning Fitchburg, allrefer.com, which purports to be based on the Columbia Gazetteer of North America (Copyright © 2000, Columbia University Press. / Licensed from Columbia University Press. All rights reserved) has Fitchburg shown as a county seat [4] and has Worcester County shown with two county seats, Worcester and Fitchburg [5].
As for tone, 64.63.214.197, what tone are you talking about? The best I can find is when I was amused that you said "A county has only one seat" then cited a webpage contradicting that.[6] On the other hand, looking at the article's history, I see a comment about my change being inconsistent with reality, and a comment that data contradicting your belief, originating from the Secretary of State's office, must have resulted from an "underpaid government intern's misunderstanding..." Rjyanco 13:17, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to go with 64.63.214.197 on this one. I have found a Worcester Telegram and Gazette article from August 8, 1993, entitled "MANY TRIES ATTEMPTED TO 'UNSEAT' WORCESTER", by Richard Chiasson. It says Lancaster was initially preferred when Worcester was chosen in 1731; that many times the northern portion of Worcester County tried to break off into its own county (different proposals called it Lincoln County or Washington County or Webster County). Possible county seats included Petersham (briefly) and Fitchburg (often). The registry of deeds was split in August 1884; according to the article, the last attempt to split the county was in 1903. So, I'm going to delete the Fitchburg reference and the dispute. Rjyanco 14:06, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So, why is all this stuff in this article? Shouldn't the new "County Government" section be moved to Worcester County, Massachusetts? AJD 22:16, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This information is here because Worcester is the county seat, and this fact should be noted here. Granted, the information beginning with "Because of the size..." should be copied over to the County article. Yes, the distinction of being a county seat is almost entirely ceremonial today, but information about Worcester's historical status should remain here, under Local government. EagleOne 02:22, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

I moved the "Because of the size..." to the County article, and moved the information about Worcester's historical status to the History section of this article. AJD 03:41, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

For the record, neighboring Middlesex County, Massachusetts is currently listed as having two county seats. -- Beland 21:36, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Headings

I don't see any benefit to eliminating the h3 subheadings. As subheadings, they show up in the Table of Contents, and have their own edit bars. Normal Wikipedia style is to use h3 rather than boldfacing for subheadings. JamesMLane 09:58, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames

I did a Yahoo! search for Worcester "Paris of the 80s" -wikipedia; this returned only seven hits. One of them, a passing reference from this article in the Phoenix, makes me think the phrase was a marketing slogan introduced by city officials years ago. It doesn't seem to have much currency as a nickname. Then I did a search for Worcester Wormtown -wikipedia; this generated 8,980 hits. I've removed the "Paris" slogan but substituted "Wormtown". JamesMLane 21:55, 29 July 2005 (UTC)Ask any of the youths in worcester the nick name of the city and they will most likely tell you its "Wor-Town" not "Wormtown". It is noted as Wortown for the first 3 letters in the name of the city and also the drauma that go's on in the city (fights, shootings, stabbings, drug etc.) plus everyone knows somebody through somebody else in this city.

[edit] Removed text about driving fast

Local enthusiasts often use it as a test road; the stretch between exits 4 and 5 is ideal for safe road driving beyond 100 miles per hour.

This is not NPOV. Moreover, it seems unwise to advise people that driving at 100mph on a stretch of urban American highway is "safe". -- Beland 21:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neighborhoods

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.
This article has been tagged since January 2007.

It would be nice if this article described the neightborhoods of the city. Am I correct in surmising that there is a section of the city called "Cambridge"? -- Beland 21:33, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 25th in population?

"It is ranked twenty-fifth in the nation for its size in terms of current population and economic growth."

Certainly, Worcester is not the twenty-fifth largest city in the country (Denver) nor does it contain the twenty-fifth largest metropolitan area (Cincinnati), yet this is what the sentence seems to say. This is in desparate need of rephrasing.Loodog 15:59, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

-I deleted it outright. It made no sense, and no one seemed to be offering any references to it. --Jleon 17:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Is it OK to pronounce it wor-ches-ter?

Only if you want the locals to beat you up. d;-) --badlydrawnjeff (WP:MEMES?) 23:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
Entirely OK if you say it from a great distance, say Kalamazoo or Albion __ Just plain Bill 17:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Not true. We have a Greyhound Bus Terminal. We can travel.--Gopple 22:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Are these proper pronunciations?

Wistuh Wurster Wurstuh Wister

The first (and maybe the last, depending on how you render the "r") might make a passable approximation. That first vowel needs to be pretty neutral, the way I hear it. I mean, if a kid from Chelmsford says "Worcester" where no one can hear him, does he still get beat up? __ Just plain Bill 11:52, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. Also, Wuss-ter. (as in "wussie").--Gopple 21:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
wuss-ter (or close to it) is how locals pronounce it, and it is the pronunciation given in the OED and Merriam-Webster for the town in England from which it gets its name, and all other names therefrom, so that's the correct pronunciation. Listen to it at Merriam-Webster. - Centrx 07:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
depends on what part of the city you're talking about. Around Grafton Hill they say Wistah. Wuss-ter is more a west-side pronounciation.--Lepeu1999 20:10, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
This may be a difference in pronunciation that is general to all words. That is, they may very well pronounce the word "wuss" like "wis" or "fuss" like "fis"; certainly that is true of the r. —Centrx→talk 09:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How the heck did it end up being so strangely pronounced?

English was pronounced differently back then. Some places changed their spelling in the New World (id. Hertford was changed to Hartford) to reflect their pronounciation, while others just changed the pronounciation (Berkshire is pronounced "Barkshire" in England), and lucky ones like Worcester kept both the same in the transition. Alex 22:36, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to pronounce it Wurster.

That's the stuff! The sauce that comes in a bottle with an orange label, that is, that Moe Howard could never pronounce. May I inquire how it feels, to "would like to" say it that way? It's 'Wɘ stɘ. And while I'm at it, here's a tray of can o' peas. __ Just plain Bill 18:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not invented here: barbed wire

Barbed wire mentions an 1874 patent issued to Joseph F. Glidden of DeKalb, Illinois. Thomas Dodge of Worcester's first patent, for barbed wire, was in 1878. Glidden sold some patent rights to Washburn & Moen of Worcester in 1876. A New Yorker, Michael Kelly, invented a form of barbed wire in 1863 but did not promote it successfully. This timeline does not mention Worcester at all, but mentions French patents in 1860 and 1865.

The early history of barbed wire involved some patent disputes, with Glidden of Illinois coming out the winner in 1892.

It looks like some of the very early manufacturing happened in Worcester, but I haven't found anything to justify saying it was "first invented here."
__ Just plain Bill 03:53, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notable - Born In Worcester

I reverted a deletion of Jerry Azuma and Alisan Porter. The deleter noted that Azuma no longer plays in the NFL and that Porter was "only born there" (which I'm pretty sure is the standard for the "Born in Worcester" category). In terms of Azuma, I think that his retirement shouldn't change his notability. He still has a Wikipedia page and he was a big part of the Chicago teams during his playing years. --Gopple 05:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Simply being born in Worcester is so trivially and tangentially connected that it does not belong in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. There are others in that section that should be removed as well, and the section renamed. Alisan Porter, specifically, moved away from Worcester at the age of 13. —Centrx→talk • 06:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I think accomplished folks - athletes, scholars, actors, politicians, scientists, etc. - are often claimed to be "sons of" or "daughters of"...a particular place. Almost every city that I randomly thought of has a list like this (either "born in" or "resident of"), which to me seems to be a general wikipedia practice to include this information (Omaha, Seattle, Hartford, Baltimore). At least for me, I find it informative and interesting...and not quite as random as you seem to. The fact that Porter left the city when she was 13 doesn't change much...Does it matter that Babe Ruth left Baltimore when he was 19? I'm not so sure. They still seem pretty proud of him. --Gopple 20:59, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Putting a bunch of people in a list in a separate article is another matter entirely, but there too, the more people you have and the less related they are, the less useful the list becomes for finding people who are more important and more related. Note also that, while it is common practice, such as in the Hartford, Connecticut section, to have a Notable natives section that list people like Mark Twain and Harriet Beecher Stowe, who first lived there substantially and have historic houses there reserved about them, the other less notable and tangentially related people are mostly added by anonymous passers-by (for Hartford, more than half were added by a single anonymous user, [7]). See also Concord, MA, where it is not appropriate to have baseball player Tom Glavine, who was merely born there and grew up somewhere else, alongside Louisa May Alcott, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Henry David Thoreau, etc., who are truly historical notable persons and who actually lived there most of their lives and did famous things there. —Centrx→talk • 06:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, I would only point out that the Hartford section also includes Dwight Freeney (NFL player) and Mark McGrath (who was only born in Hartford, but grew up in Los Angeles. I don't have a vested interest in requiring Alisan Porter to be on the Worcester native list. That said, on the overall level, I do like having the list, with all the notable people who have that connection to Worcester (born or raised or live there). As for Porter? My best (?) argument would be that her 'notability' ("Curly Sue") took place when she was a Woo-Rat - I remember the only reason anyone went to see that movie was become a hometown girl was in a big movie...so, whatever that means. Unless there is a major reason to get rid of it, I would respectfully request we keep the folks up there as status quo...at least until there is a movement to change all notable-city-dweller information. Is that fair? --Gopple 05:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that it dilutes the meaning and usefulness of the list when people only tangentially related are put together with people who are really connected with the town, and it would I think expose the unimportance of the list to separate out a section of "People not actually related to the town but happened to be born there and then moved at the age of 6 or were only born in the hospital or actually lived in a suburb, etc." I do think that Dwight Freeney and Mark McGrath do not belong in the Hartford list. —Centrx→talk • 00:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should Worcester be a disambig?

I'm a tad confused. Why is the default page for "Worcester" the English city when Worcester, Massachusetts has nearly twice the population? Wouldn't a disambiguation page be more logical? 24.199.113.215 09:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I would not even object to having Worcester, MA as the default page considering its population. scskowron 09:15 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Worcester" should be the disambiguation page simply because there are so many. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

A raw population comparison is not the only criterion that enters into how article names and disambiguation issues are handled. For example, even though Worcester, MA is larger, it's not clear that it's more famous than Worcester, UK; internationally, the name "Worcester" by itself, without any further geographic markers like a state or country name, is vastly more likely to conjure up mental images of England than Massachusetts. I'm not even convinced that everyone in the United States would necessarily think of Worcester, MA first, either. Bearcat 05:26, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

And how do you propose we determine what is more famous aside from population? Scskowron 18:42, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Founding question

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it.
Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion.
This article has been tagged since January 2007.

Among many other question left unanswered by the History section, who founded the city and why? -- Beland 05:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Additionally It has been my impression that the polar seltzer plant and black market activities also are a major role in the economy of worcester.

[edit] Nicknames

I know a lot of people who refer to Worcester as "Woo". Is this appropriate to add to the nicknames on the Wiki page? If so, can someone find a source? Scskowron 23:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC) Another nickname for the new underground hip hop culture is "Wor-Town" insteas of "wormtown" which the name was given for the punk rock culture and later was given the name for the slummy gimeyness of the city. It is now mostly known as Wor-Town for the first 3 letters being W-O-R and also the drauma in the city. Everybody knows somebody you know through somebody else.

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