Talk:Won Gyun
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WonKyun did not get killed by the japs, he was executed by the king for losing most of Yi Soon Shin's navy, i should know because i myself am korean and know my history —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.46.43.100 (talk • contribs).
- Do you have a source for that? He may have had it coming, but my sources indicate that the other side got to him first. -- Visviva 04:48, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
The one who wrote this article must have watched 'Bulmyul ei Yi Sun Shin(불멸의 이순신)' which is also called 'The Immortal Yi Sun Shin' and firmly believes in the drama. Wake up. The drama was one of the historic shows that have sooooooooooooo many historical inaccuracies. Won Gyun? Great general? Most of Koreans who are well educated enough to figure out that drama was dramatizing Won Gyun would laugh at the editor's face. Also there is no proof that he was killed by the Japanese. The last time anybody saw him during the war was when he was alive. Even though he may got killed by Japanese, there was nobody around, which means no witness. In the contrary, if you look into the Joseon Wangjo Silok, which is the historical record of Joseon dynasty, there were witnesses who saw Won Gyun after Chilchunryang. Visviva, I don't know where you got that source, but I don't think it is accurate. If you are Korean, why don't you go into this link? http://warfog.net/main.html It has the one of the most accurate and vast source for Yi Sun Shin and the Seven Years War. senei1019
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- Wow, I didn't realize that website was for Koreans only... Guess I must not be permitted to read it. Anyway, here are two online encyclopedias asserting that Won Gyun fell in battle: Empas Naver As tertiary, unreferenced sources, these aren't ideal, but they are fairly reliable. My much-older 인명국사대사전 (1993) concurs with them, citing the Seonjo Sillok. Interestingly, the 새國史事典 (1983) says that Won Gyun was captured and slain while fleeing the Japanese, which rings a bit more true. At any rate, all of these sources agree on who killed him.... Thus, from the sources available to me -- which are somewhat inadequate -- it seems that there is a strong consensus that he was killed by the Japanese.
- Re the Joseon Wangjo Sillok, could you please specify where those entries are? I don't dispute your claim, but the main Seonjo Sillok alone has more than 100 entries referring to Won Gyun, and I don't have quite enough time to look through all of them right now. Cheers, -- Visviva 13:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, some of the things that you said was right. You were right that the internet encyclopedias are unreferenced sources and they are not ideal. Just like wikipedia, those are not writings of the scholars, but netizens. I went to the links you gave me. Those were written in Korean. I wonder how you read them. Also if you get access to the 'English' version of Joseon Wangjo Sillok, then I don't see any reason why you would use internet encyclopedia. You asked me to give you the sources for Won Gyun. Here are the sources. The recordings of July 22, 1597, Kim Sik reported to King. He said Won Gyun was too old to walk, so he was left back. The only thing Kim Sik saw was that the 6-7 Japanese soldiers attacked Won Gyun, but Kim Sik didn't see the actual death of Won Gyun. Then later in July 26, 1597, Kwon Yul reported that Choi Young Gil, the general under his commend, saw Won Gyun was heading to Jinju, which is not around sea at all. Choi Young Gil talked to Won Gyun as well. After that, there is no witness or talk of Won Gyun. Now, I guess you can actually 'look up' Joseon Wangjo Sillok since I gave you the date. The debate over Won Gyun's death is not that important comparing to the whole content of the article of Won Gyun. The article almost praises him as a great soldier, but the truth is he is one of the most incapable soldier and a coward in Korean history. If you actually looked up or study or read Joseon Wangjo Sillok, which I doubt you did since you bring your sources from 'unreferenced sources', then you should know Won Gyun was no great general at all. senei1019
[edit] This article contains very wrong information about Won Gyun
First of all, it says that Won Gyun demonstrated good military skill from his young age. I'll tell you what. He passed the military exam by using his father's money and connection. Also when he was in North, his job was to supplying Yi Il and Yi Sun Shin's troups. He didn't fight in the front at all. The reason for his rapid promotion was that he was bribing the ministers. Also he was relative to high ministers which gave him the connection. The reason he had only three or four ships at the beginning of the Seven Years War was because he destroyed his ships when he heard that Japanese were coming. (That was even before Japanese came into his province) Why he destroyed his ships? Because he was ready to run away to Yi Sun Shin's province which was well prepared for the war. He couldn't run away, leaving the ships behind, because Japanese will take the ships. Did he fight with Yi Sun Shin? No. As he did in the Northern boundary, all he did was supplying at the back. One of the reason why Yi Sun Shin was arrested was becaues Won Gyun was constantly sending very 'biased' reports to degrade Yi Sun Shin. After he became the commander of the navy, he refused to fight. (It's funny, because he defamed Yi Sun Shin because he refused king's order)He went to war after he was punished by Gwon Yul. That was the war of Chilchunryang where he lost about 300 ships which Yi Sun Shin built for many years. He didn't even fight in the war. During the night when Japanese attacked, he left the ship and ran away. (He was even drunken at that time) It's a shame that his subjects such as Yi Eok Gi and few left and fought died, while the top commander ran away and caused the caos. This article is well written in terms of organization, however, it doesn't contain the right information.senei1019
[edit] Rename
Someone please rename this article back to Won Gyun as that is the most widely used spelling. Taeguk Warrior 12:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reverting the Article Back and my justifications
As a scholar of Korean history, I found this current revision of this article to be offensive and narrow-minded. This is not to say that Yi Sun Shin was not a great military leader, but the following linked past article is actually the more representative of Won Gyun as a military leader: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Won_Gyun&oldid=91097439
1. Won Gyun was the subject of intense historical revisionism during the Park Chung Hee administration. President Park Chung Hee is known to have greatly admired Yi Sun Shin and King Sejong as Korea's representative historical 'icons' and did his best during the dictatorial years to distort history to make things work to his vision of Korea. Yi Sun Shin's apotheosis was done partially through the degradation of Won Kyun (Won Gyun) who was also an important military figure at the time who received honors posthumously from the Korean monarchy. While it is true that he was involved in a catastrophic loss against the invading Japanese, that was more a symbol of the sheer incompetence of the Yi Dynasty court that was seeing signs of growing factional strife that resulted in historical calamity later on in its history.
2. There's a lot of dramatization in Korea on this topic for obvious reasons. Yi Sun Shin has long been taught to be one of Korea's national heroes, while Won Kyun has been relegated as a national antagonist. Also, a close inspection of Yi Sun Shin's writings suggest that Won Kyun wasn't as incompetent as taught in Korean schools and perpetuated through academia. Look at the sources cited for this article - they are either written during the Japanese occupation, or during Park Chung Hee's administration. There are virtually no historical first sources beyond Yi Sun Shin's memoirs (which I do not see any citations from in the article itself) and are understandably more antagonistic.
3. The accusations launched against Won Kyun such as his appointments in the military are unsubstantiated at best.
4. I admit that there is a tragic dearth of translations of first-hand accounts and records that are currently available in classical Chinese, and for various political and marketing reasons, not widely circulated beyond the narrow scope of Korean academia, and even then, finding sources in English pertaining to this topic remains impossible to find - more the reason that the only article in existence pertaining to the topic at hand in English is not bogged down by what has been effectively dictatorship-era propaganda lite. This includes a scholarly translation of the inscriptions at Won Kyun's burial grounds and shrine, also in a far less epic scale than the one for Yi Sun Shin.
5. While it is a somewhat raw source, there is one English website that does offer raw translations of the markings and inscriptions at the site. I'm not pleased at the quotes, but I have a sinking suspicion that they're actually quotes on the little signboards explaining the cultural sites being referenced and photographed near Pyongtaek that are government sponsored.
6. I also take offense at the contributor below who stipulates that most educated Koreans would be shocked to hear about the possibility that Won Kyun is not as bad as he is displayed in children's history books. In my experience with people who lived in the Park Chung Hee Era all have a certain dose of healthy skepticism that is lost today in a world cluttered by misinformation.
7. This is the link to the website. Some of the sources I will admit here are dubious but the historical marker sign quotes should be considered historical document in fact. http://kalaniosullivan.com/OsanAB/OsanSongtanKorHist.html and please scroll down to the article pertaining to 'Won Kyun.'
8. You can see that the site is actually very well taken care of, and of particular interest:
"Won Kyun (Hwan Gun) won the Battle of Dangpo by "recruiting the dispersed Army inspite of the unfavorable situation in the early phase of the war." He scored victories at Happo, Chokchinpo, and other skirmishes. (Source: Historical Marker at Admiral Won Kyun's Tomb)"
"Along with Gen Kwon Yul and Admiral Yi Sun-shin, he was granted posthumous honors by King Seonjo in 1603. (Source: Historic Marker at Admiral Won Kyun's Tomb)" (Direct quotes from the website)
Gwon Yul, Yi Sun Shin, and Won Gyun are the trio of famous generals during the Japanese invasions and slightly prior - but considerable animosity between the Deoksu Yi family and the Wonju Won family that seemed to have existed in history made Won Kyun an attractive target for historical distortion.
9. So with that, I've restored this page to how it originally was at the above posting. If you look at the text prior to my editing, you will see that everything 'good' mentioned about Won Kyun has been irresponsibly replaced with something remarkably 'bad' about Won Kyun. The article was also fraught with inconsistencies as the editors themselves did not have a full understanding of Won Kyun as a three-dimensional historical figure, preferring to report Won Kyun in the article as an antagonist caricature. Statement about often being drunk is taken from a source that is outdated and also very single-sided on the matter. There was no cite at all pertaining to Won Kyun concurring with the Japanese spy to get Yi Sun Shin arrested - and the paragraph right after explains in fact Won Kyun KNEW the Japanese spy was lying and only proceed with his cause of action due to the court and their orders. Senei's argument about Won Kyun's appointments are also incorrect - partially. Yi Sun Shin was also from a very distinguished family - a family that I descend from. (Deoksu Yi). Won Kyun prior to his military assignments was already a government magistrate.Whitearbiter 06:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
