Talk:Wirry-cow

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Etymology

Wirricowe from wirry (worry) [1] in the sense of to harrass or pester and cowe [2] a hobgoblin.

That's one interpretation, but it may also be folk etymology. DSL is not above making mistakes. The second element is by no means always "cow". --MacRusgail 15:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Forms with the second element carle meaning 'old man' are certainly semantically similar but the chances of rhotic carle [kɑrl, kerl][3] being corrupted to non-rhotic cowe [kʌu] are highly unlikely in Scots. Wirricowe [4] and wirricarle being two different compound words for a similar thing. The first word (worry) being akin to Urisk is nothing more than wishful thinking, semantically similar words such as worry-boggle and worrie-craw also exist, the possibility of a phonological shift from something like [ˈurɪsk] to [ˈwʌrɪ] or [ˈwɪrɪ] is difficult to accept.

84.135.247.81 12:31, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Why would it be wishful thinking? The DSL has long operated an anti-Gaelic bias, which it inherited from Jamieson. This can be found in some of their promotional literature where they talk about Lallans as "the Scottish language", and "the language of Scotland" and don't even mention the other one. In fact, the only reason Gaelic words are even mentioned in several DSL etymologies (in their online version at least) is because *I* personally wrote and pointed them out to them. It is particularly stupid in cases of "origin unknown" not to point out a Gaelic parallel, especially an older one. Apart from taking almost as long as the Academie Francais to produce the final volume of their magnum opus, they also suck up large sums of public money, and do very little to preserve what's out there (God forbid they go to schemes, clubs and pubs where you can actually still hear it). That's left up to people like ItchyCoo who seem to be prepared to actually do anything. Enough of the rant. Suffice to say they are not the sole authorities. The "wirry" part, may be folk etymology, which is something you have dodged. Folk etymology can radically change the form of a word, even with scant regard to phonetic laws. In this case, I suggest the shift from uisge (beatha) to whisky is somewhat similar, although I've no idea how the h got in there. --MacRusgail 17:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

p.s. Can you please get a wikipedia account, it would make you easier to talk to.

Perhaps i was a bit strong on the wishful thinking and in light of your mentioning uisge to whisky, [ˈurɪsk] to [ˈwɪrɪ] or [ˈwʌrɪ] is perhaps within the realms of possibility. Since the second element, whether, cowe or carle, both have initial /k/ it may have subsumed the final /sk/ of urisk. What also needs to be adressed is whether the phonological history of urisk ties in with such an adoption into Scots (DOST cites Wirry ratoune and Wirry hen). Are there other parallels for the word-boundary cluster /rɪsk 'k-/ being reduced to /-rɪ 'k-/? I'd still need more evidence to be convinced of probably. The argument for accepting wirry (worry) is based on phonology and its being semantically meaningful, which is at least some evidence. Evidence found in the SND and DOST, whereas urisk seems to be original research, which without further evidence, is based on phonological and semantical coincidence. I assume the etymologies of cowe and carle are undisputed. Did urisk, in what ever form, ever have any widespread currency in Lowland Scotland? 84.135.202.75 22:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about the Original Research tag. Mackay does in fact mention ùruisg. It may be sensible to take Mackays (1888) conclusions with a verly large pinch of salt. His introduction includes such gems as:

The Scotch is indebted more immediately to the Dutch and Flemish spoken in Holland and Belgium, both for its inflexion and grammar. Which would imply that the article History of the Scots language is seriously flawed.

The true origin of the word "Angles" is the Keltic or Gaelic an, the definite article, and gaidheil [...], which signifies the "Gael" or the Celts; whence An-gael and not Angle.

That completely ignores Angeln in Schleswig-Holstein.

Interestingly MacKay suggests the Gaelic uaire as an etymology for worry ignoring other Germanic cognates such as Old Frisian wergia, Middle Dutch worgen and Modern German würgen.

Later Scholarship seems to disagree with many of his conclusions. All the same it is original research, spurious as it is. The SND were certainly aware of his work but it obviouly didn't live up to the requirements of modern Scholarship.

84.135.239.144 17:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

No it isn't "original research". Not according to the wikipedia definition of such anyway, which is research that the editor themselves has done. Since Charles MacKay has probably been in his grave a while, unless he's being channeled by me unknowingly, it's not original research. Some of his etymologies are odd, but if so, you can include his etymology with a disclaimer.--MacRusgail 16:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC) p.s. please get a wikipedia account. I've no idea whether the other replies on this thread are one person or several!

You are quite right it definitely isn't "original research" as was freely admitted sorry about the Original Research tag. Mackay does in fact mention ùruisg. The later mention of original research was a mistake on my part. I meant MacKay's research was spurious, why I wrote original will remain a mystery. I'm quite happy to leave the article as it is. I don't see any reason why later scholarship should be allowed to get in the way of an otherwise good article.

84.135.242.170 08:31, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, please get a wikipedia account. It takes 30 seconds, costs nothing, and you don't even have to supply an email! Secondly, I have tried to bring the article more in line with your thinking, e.g. I have mentioned that "wirry-" occurs as a prefix in other words. Most etymologies are controversial anyway, but if they do not line up with the evidence, then they are more so.--MacRusgail 16:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that most etymologies are controversial and that those which do not line up with the evidence should be treated with suspicion. The worry in worrycow isn't likely to be akin to the English/Scots worry in its old sense of harassment. That is more likely a folk etymology based on spurious assumptions that the worry is somehow related to Germanic words such as Old Frisian wergia, Middle Dutch worgen and Modern German würgen. Such explanations were eagerly accepted by the SND with their anti-Gaelic bias inherited from Jamieson. As MacKay rightly shows the worry in worrycow is possibly akin to the Gaeluc ùruisg and unlikely to be akin to worry in its old sense of harassment. MacKay showing us that that worry is from the Gaelic uaire. Which of course makes the article fine as it is unless the Wirricowe as a creature is akin the the Urisk, which has nothing to do with etymology. 84.135.198.74 08:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)