Talk:Winston Churchill

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Contents

[edit] Delisted as GA

No way does this conform to WP:NPOV. I have looked through the WWII section, there is no criticism mentioned at all. Most importantly not a single mention of Dresden, nor the war crimes allegations like these. Probably a whole lot else missing, but I can't be bothered digging any further, complete omission of criticism is bad enough for delisting.--KonstableSock 12:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

  • I don't think the above is an adequate explanation. I also don't think the above is a complete or fair assessment of the article. Therefore, I have referred the matter to Wikipedia:Good article review. Johntex\talk 03:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism?

Is this worthy of being noted in the article? http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/03/10/070311000812.7mxzo1k0.html Mwv2 17:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More resources?

Not necessarily related to the article itself, but I need more sources for Info on Mr. Churchill for a school paper, and my teacher won't take Wikipedia as a "legitimate and acceptable" resource despite you guys' hard work. I have already used most all of the links at the bottom but I need considerably more. Google and other resources are producing to many "unverifiable" claims etc. I need some information on his contributions to modern, to science, technology, culture, literature, politics (this part is easy), and as much more as you guys can get me. (Avatar of Nothing 02:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing)
Set your teacher a challenge - can they find another internet site with this much detail, information and authority? Then see if they still think Wikipedia is a no-no. :-) MarkThomas 14:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I will try, But I don't think that will go over very well XD oh well, keep an eye out, just add them to the references or leave the links here if you can, Thanks again Avatar of Nothing 19:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)Avatar of nothing
I Went and looked at the links on the page, Excellent job Guys and Gals, You are greatly helping me, why the number of links has nearly tripled! My project may yet be saved! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.52.112.70 (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
Probably too late to mention it, but your teacher is right about Wikipedia not being a legitimate and acceptable resource. My advice - forget the internet, and head to your local library. Lianachan 12:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Bah, I am trying, however my library here is teh suck. oh well, I ordered a book off of barnes and noble. I'll be using that for alot. *sigh* thanks anyways guys. Avatar of Nothing 20:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing

[edit] Archive and protection status

I have made a new archive as the current talk page was getting very long. I would like to point out that this article is sadly vandalised at least once every day, several times a week. I think it should be placed under semi protected status and remain so to prevent unregistered users vandalising it. LordHarris 14:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Very much agree M'Lord, the problem if anything has grown worse in recent months. Similar picture over at World War II. MarkThomas 14:57, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
I posted a request for semi protection and its just been very kindly done. Hopefully vandalism will decrease now! LordHarris 15:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Role as wartime Prime Minister

What is the complaint about unbalance about exactly? I've just read through that and can't find much lack of balance in it, unless the "balance" complained about is that we should make Churchill out to be a swine as compensation? :-) On a wider note, Churchill's war was so wide-ranging and so much has been written, might it not be a good idea to set up a new page just on that subject? MarkThomas 15:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family and personal life

The following has been removed several times on the article without reason. Sources have been provided.

As a member of the 4th (Queen’s Own) Hussars, in 1896 Churchill became embroiled in a lawsuit wherein he was publicly accused of having engaged in the commission of “acts of gross immorality of the Oscar Wilde type” (homosexual). This case was duly settled out of court for a payment of money and the charges were withdrawn. Also a determinant factor was the interference by the Prince of Wales, with whom his mother was having an affair. [1]

In 1905, Churchill hired a young man, Edward Marsh (later Sir Edward) as his private secretary. His mother, always concerned about her son’s political career, was concerned because Marsh was a very well known homosexual who later became one of Winston’s most intimate lifelong friends. Personal correspondence of Marsh, now in private hands, attests to the nature and duration of their friendship.

"Somerset Maugham claimed that Winston Churchill had slept with Ivor Novello (also a friend of Edward Marsh) to find out 'what it would be like with a man'. Legend records Winnie's verdict on the effects of the experiment as 'musical'."[2][3]

--Zefrog 10:32, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I have strong reservations about including this material:
  1. As to the court case, I dislike reporting the settling of legal actions as being confirmation of the allegation in them. There are many reasons for settling cases, especially for public figures who cannot afford the embarassment of such trials. And frankly I'm not convinced the is sufficiently reliable.
  2. As to the private secretary, this smacks of "guilt by association". The fact that someone is good friends with a homosexual is a totally trivial fact and shouldn't be used to imply they are gay themselves. I can only see it being relevant in a discussion about someone who has made anti-gay statements, ie. "although x publically expressed disaproval of homosexuality, his best friend y was a homosexual." That doesn't seem to apply here. Again, the ref isn't great.
  3. The cotent of the letter is third-hand hearsay.
Even if these were included, I don't think that would justify adding Churchill to Category:LGBT people, or put him within the scope of the LGBT Wikiproject. WjBscribe 11:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Favorite meal

Once I read in a magazine that Churchill loved Wiener schnitzel and ate it a least once a week. But he kept it as a secret because schnitzel is strongly associated with Germany. Is this a matter of fact?chicken noodle soup wit a soda on da side

[edit] Early life

I have heard that Winston Churchill was actually born in a ladies room during a dance.

Is this true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.123.206.196 (talk) 23:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

I think I read this in Krockow's Churchill. Eine Biographie des 20. Jahrhunderts (German) as well, but I'll have to check this before being sure. FloK 13:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It is true, it was at Blenheim palace during a dance. LordHarris 14:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Islam commentary

I apologize for adding this in the form of a large quote, but I wasn't sure how to add a new section. I do think that its important, for comprehensiveness' sake, to include this in an otherwise glowing review of Churchill's life (barring certain obvious failures like Gallipoli). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.21.91.103 (talk) 18:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

  • It would help to know when and in what fashion he made that statement. Mackensen (talk) 18:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, following German User:Mariachi, it's quoted from his River War: An Historical Account of the Reconquest of the Soudan, and Blogger Chris Bell seems to spprove it - as well as some other googled ones I won't look through. So I think the question is how to shorten it, or just bringing it to the wikiquotes. I'm not an expert, it's up to you. FloK 22:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quality

This article needs some fixing. I didn't read all of it, but the section "Parliament" for example, makes absolutely no sense at all. Jack Daw 12:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph of "The Army" needs a major rewrite. The style reads like a bad school essay, has dubious facts, no formatting or wikilinks and has a number of misspellings and American spellings. I'm sure that the subject matter was handled better in earlier versions. If I have time, I may come back later--DavidCane 00:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism!

"In India, the main preoccupation of Churchill's regiment was polo, a situation which did not appeal to the young man, hungry for more military action. He devoted his time to educating himself from books, which he had sent out to him by his mother."

I don't know who changed this article, but the section "The Army," like someone else said, reads like a bad school paper. However, there's more to it than that. The quote that I put above is from Churchill: The Unexpected Hero by Paul Addison. I know because I used that book a source when writing a paper of my own about Churchill. (Hopefully, it will be better that the current article.) Someone please restore the article to its previous revision. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.233.74.80 (talk) 00:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Info box

Churchil was liberal then conservative. So perhaps at the info box, it should be re-written to "liberal than conservative".Tourskin 04:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "The Army"

The third section in, "The Army," really needs to be rewritten. Right now it sounds more like somebody telling a story about Churchill than an encyclopedia's information, not to mention to fact that it's just hard to understand. Soldieroffortune7 06:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I have rewritten it, placing all the various paragraphs that were all over the place in a sort of prose and order. I deleted some of the more silly stuff but theres still loads of things that needed sourced and ive added citations needed where they are. It would be great if someone had a biography of Churchill and could fill in the needed citations. Anyway at least it flows a little better and its understandable. Hopefully its a bit more encyclopedic as well.LordHarris 03:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Tidied up the parliament section a bit, and added some subtitles as well.LordHarris 03:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honours

This article, as the edit intro states is getting very long and as guidelines suggest I would be happy to create a new article to reduce this articles page size. I would be happy to create a new article detailing the awards and honours belonging to Churchill that is currently in the main article, writing a short paragraph for here and a 'main article:' link to his honours. Ill also add some references. Does anyone object? LordHarris 02:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe even the Last days could be merged into this (?), as they contains only few not linked to the state funeral - clearly a very special honor. FloK 14:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this article supposed to be in American English or Brittish English

I'm not sure. What's wikipedia's "English"? What is this article supposed to be in? Is it "organization" or "organisation"? Both are right, depending on what version of English we're using. Fredsmith2 14:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Wikipedia uses American English for articles dealing with Americans, the United States and all contained therein, and specifically American concepts. Everything else should be British English. Of course, your mileage may vary. Mackensen (talk) 15:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • See WP:ENGVAR for the policy in this area. As Mackensen said, broadly articles are written in the form of English that naturally goes with the topic e.g. American English for George Bush, British English for Winston Churchill. Otherwise the aim is consistency and so the first used spelling convention tends to be kept. "Organisation" vs "organization" is more complicated. Although the former is more common in the UK, Oxford English still favours 'ize' and both forms are correct spelling. Again, consistency seems best so switch to whatever form is in the majority :-). WjBscribe 15:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Mackensen is incorrect in saying "Everything else should be British English". The policy is that if there is no strong association to either countty, then the spelling will follow the spelling used by whoever starts the article. Since most volunteers on Wikipedia are American, you will find that most topics use American spelling. British spellish is correct here, of course, Winny's honorary American citizenship not withstanding. Johntex\talk 03:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Multiple References

If I got it right, most of the uncited facts in the India section come from the Roussel text, as well as these I just shortened (Thank you, Mylord, for looking up! ;) ). Is there a possibility to indicate this (e.g. The following paragraph is sourced on: ...), or are such "overall" references disliked at all (e.g. because they themselves could be wrong or so)? "Wikipediazational" experts, please. FloK 20:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

One way is to put a <ref name=Roussel> reference in, then at the end of each paragraph refer to the same citation with <ref name=Roussel />. You could also add an HTML comment at the beginning of each such paragraph to tell editors that the initial version of the paragraph is from the Roussel source. Eventually m:WikiTextrose will help with such things. (SEWilco 17:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Timeline

Thanks for all the work - I've used the information from Wikipedia and other sources to create a Winston Churchill Timeline and was hoping it would be suitable for the external links section? You can interact with the timeline by changing the detail level to get more events. Onetimeliner 23:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

Creating a list page for the many things named after Churchill such as the multiple Winston Churchill High Schools or the several Churchill Squares. Kevlar67 02:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Added some new images to the article (shown below) that I was given permission to take at the Churchill Museum a few days ago. LordHarris 00:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The River War, one of Churchills first books Churchills election poster, Oldham Churchill and Stalin, August 1942 Churchills Honorary Citizen of the United States passport

[edit] Correct quotation or a bad hoax?

It's often claimed Churchill said after World War II in regard to Hitler and Stalin: 'We slaughtered the wrong pig'. If that's a correct quote, I would like to see it in the article. - Of course I asked google, but the result is a little ambiguous. Byzanz

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