Talk:Winged Victory of Samothrace
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Why does this article attract such persistent vandalism? Adam 02:37, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Blowing a trumpet or victory paean?
The entry claims that Nike was probably blowing on a victory paean or trumpet. Could this please be cited? I had read previously (somewhere) that her hands had actually been recovered and found empty.
- The plastic sheets at Louvre include pictures of a Greek coin representing a winged figure blowing a trumpet on a prow (coins by Demetrius Poliorcetes?). I don't know if they are presented as an example of a common theme or the coin is thought to represent this actual statue.
[edit] Escalier Daru?
After reading this article I'm curious as to what the "Escalier Daru" is. Can someone elaborate? - Ianneub 03:33, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
- It simply means "Daru Staircase" - it's a monumental staircase inside the Louvre. -- ChrisO 07:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Which battle?
Any speculation on which battle inspired the creation of the statue?
Well. As a representation of Athena in her manifestation of victory (Nike) there needn't be any specific victory associated with the goddess - she would simply have been understood as representing Athens and her ruling deity. But her appearance on the prow of a ship is unusual. It is partly explained by the nature of the site, which seems to have all manner of votive offerings associated with it from all over the middle east, many being naval.
For Instance, a short distance from the amphitheatre that originally housed Nike there is a huge building (the Neorion) that was built to accommodate an entire warship, given as a votive offering to the Great Gods (according to Karl Lehmann. the archaeologist in charge of the excavations at the Sanctuary of the great Gods on Samothraki) by Antigonas Gonatus who developed Macedonian sea power around the 3rd century B.C. I have visited this building and it is still very impressive, especially the huge keel shaped marble blocks that once supported the great ship. As the Neorion was in place about a century before the Nike statue, it is perhaps possible that the statue was erected upon a ships prow as a continuation of the ship theme set by the earlier structure. Perhaps the wooden ship had even decayed to the point where a stone representation was felt necessary. DavidP 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I've never seen any suggestion of a link between the Victory and Athens. She was made in Rhodes, as I understand, in celebration of a Rhodian victory. Adam 05:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Adam: The statue is a portrayal of Nike. Nike is a manifestation of the goddess Athena as the goddess of victory. She (Athena) was the goddess of several things and each one of her 'talents' if you like, was represented by a different image or statue. similar to the way Christians will represent Christ as a fish, a lamb, a bleeding heart, etc. Athena's spheres of influence were as follows: each with an image and a name.
- Goddess of War - Athena Nike (victory), shown with wings
- Protector of Heroes - Athena Promachos (Athena, Goddess who Fights at the Forefront) - shown with Aegis (a snake fringed cape)
- Goddess of wisdom - Athena Pallas - shown with helmet
- Goddess of Craftsmanship - Athena Polias - weaver - shown weaving
- Goddess of virtue - Athena Parthenos (parthenos means virgin)- adopted Protector of the City of Athens - the parthenon - shown with column, shield and head-dress
So although the statue may have been made in Rhodes, even though made of marble from Paros (Parian marble) the figure that is represented is utterly Athenian (to use a rather miserable simile 'Mickey mouse' represents America, but is usually made in China these days at least). As for the particular reason that the statue was given as a votive, no one can say - the cult in Samothraki was one of the few mystery cults that never was betrayed, its rituals remain a mystery. In a way you are right though, the suggestion is seldom made that a statue made for ancient pagan religious reasons is anything other than bit of carved stone that the Louvre exhibits alongside paintings that have far shallower contexts. DavidP 20:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
(I have no idea what that last comment means.) Of course Athena was the patron goddess of Athens, but that doesn't mean the Athenians had a monopoly on her, any more than the English have a monopoly on St George. As far as I know the statue was made in Rhodes, or on order from Rhodes, to celebrate a Rhodian naval victory, and has nothing to do with Athens. Correct me if I'm wrong (with references). Adam 05:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Adam. the rhodes link with this statue is only based on two things, the grey marble of the ship is Rhodian, and the word Rhodes is inscribed on that same plinth/ship. the asertion that the sculpture was carved by a rhodian sculptor is perhaps rather speculative. but I guess it had to be made somewhere.
As for the Athenian conection being likened to St George, I whole heartedly agree with you regarding its universality - except in this case the statue was sourced, made (even if in Rhodes) and sited well within the territory that was home to the first and second Athenian empire - so as its reasonable to say that, when St George is encountered in England he is unlikely to represent Moscow, the Nike would have had clear connotations of the Athenian deity, being on what was Athenian soil - this is also supported by the costume that she wears which is still identifiable as 4th century Athenian dress. costume that, even when the sculpture was new, placed it back in in time to when the first athenian empire was at its peak (as was the sanctuary at Samothraki). In fact at the time the sculpture was made (whichever estimate you prefer) Samothraki and Rhodes where both outside of the newly imposed macedonian empire, so perhaps the Athenian dress/goddess was intended to represent the golden age when both Islands were united under the Athenian empire. If so It would be saying much the same as the Pergamon Altar with which is is closely associated. Anyway enough speculation - while looking for a clear reference to the sculptors origin I came up with this - which may help you with your original question. According to the Louvre Museum...
- The sanctuary at Samothrace was consecrated to the Cabeiri, gods of fertility whose help was invoked to protect seafarers and to grant victory in war. The offering of a statue of Nike perched on a ship was a religious act in honor of these gods. It has also been suggested that this monument was dedicated by the Rhodians in commemoration of a specific naval victory. The type of ship depicted and the grey marble used for the prow and base of the statue both suggest that this is indeed a Rhodian creation. If it is associated with a major Rhodian naval victory, the work can be dated to the second century BC-it would have been erected in honor of the battle of Myonnisos, or perhaps the Rhodian victory at Side in 190 BC against the fleet of Antiochus III of Syria. DavidP 00:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
who sculpted it??
