Talk:Willow Creek Community Church

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 15 December 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

An excellent article. Well done for fleshing out my stub. DJ Clayworth 21:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Serious concerns with" - The final section of the article confuses me; it seems to have primarily external links interspersed with a quotation and a long list of keywords. For the large part, the external links have no elaboration, and the title is left unexplained. Also, this section appears in addition to the section "Sources and external links". Anyone want to clear this one up? --John Hupp, 27-28 Sept 2005:Thank you to Fides Viva for the clarification. I have moved the section "Serious concerns with" above the "Sources and external links" and renamed it "Criticisms of Willow Creek". I placed a subheading of the same name in the external links to list the articles referenced. I also reformatted the quotes to be more consistent and easier to read. Perhaps someone could paraphrase some of them to give the section more original material (i.e. so that it won't be just quotes). One worry I have about the page, though, is the potential for POV; use of quotes seems to limit that potential for subjectivity in the article body. The article seems written from two points of view, the first pro and the second con. Perhaps these POV issues should be addressed in the article as a whole. --John Hupp 23:00, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Thankyou John, I am very new at editing on Wikipedia, yesterday was my first time and I am very shaky in formatting and writing articles. I am sorry for having made work for you. You have put it in an excellent way! I will have to study the Tutorial and practice writing articles. My POV about Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven models is con. All the POV I have seen on Wikipedia about Bill Hybels and Willow Creek and Rick Warren and Saddleback and their Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven models have been pro. I wanted people to be able to have access to the many many articles, essays and audios from a wide variety of folks that critique the whole Seeker Sensitive/Purpose Driven movement. I noticed you had two of these links * Seeker Sensitive, Purpose Driven Churchesso I removed one. Any advice you can give me in what to do or what I am doing wrong will be most welcome. Once again, thankyou. - Fides Viva --Fides Viva 02:09, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

"Willow eschews church jargon." is an opinion of the author of the article. (J. D. Hunt 07:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC))

Perhaps a simple change of sentence structure could fix that one POV. However, as I wrote earlier (and people seem to have noticed) POV is quite deeply rooted in this article, and there are even conflicting POV issues. This article needs an extensive rewrite, but my past modifications have little exceeded basic editing. I don't mean to sound the lazy hypocrite, but will someone else please work on this article? --John Hupp 06:31, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] My Changes

I made some changes in the wording of the "Controversy over Chistmas 2005" section. Hopefully, I was able to remove some of the bias from the section, making it more encyclopedic. before my changes, it seems that the article focused on the criticism only.

Glad to see you caught some of the POV I overlooked (and even contributed *gasp*) in my past rewrites. It's good to have collaborative writing. If you have information to add or energy to edit other parts of the article, do take a look. And thankyouthankyouthankyou for using the talk page!

[edit] Purpose Driven Life/Willow Creek Connection?

Criticisms of The Purpose Driven Life

The following quotes raise issues with certain aspects of the Willow Creek method, from its 'Walmart-esque' business model, to its humanist worldview, unconventional worship styles and Eastern influences.

According to the recent Business Week set of essays explaining the business models of the Mega-Churches in the seeker/church growth movement, the church in America is not growing overall. In fact the overall growth of evangelicalism in the US is flat. So what is all the talk about God doing a magnificent work or revival in America, especially as boasted by many of the Rick Warren clones? The reason is similar to when a Home Depot or Walmart moves into a small town. All your needs can be met in one place so the mom and pop shops close up. The same kind of market driven philosophy is taking place in the church." - Seeker Sensitive, Purpose Driven Churches

Worldliness is departing from God. It is a man-centered way of thinking; it proposes objectives which demand no radical breach with man’s fallen nature; it judges the importance of things by the present and material results; it weighs success by numbers; it covets human esteem and wants no unpopularity; it knows no truth for which it is worth suffering; it declines to be a ‘fool for Christ’s sake’. Worldliness is the mindset of the unregenerate. It adopts idols and is at war with God." - Iain H. Murray Evangelicalism Divided

Lists of purpose cause us to lose our delight and our enjoyment of God. We are to ultimately delight ourselves in what God has already done for us in Christ, not constantly delight ourselves in what we have done for God." - Charles R. Biggs The Person of Christ-Driven Life

Of all the trends I've observed, the explosion of the "seeker"-centered megachurches is one of the most disturbing. Mega- churches in America have become absurd to the point where satire is almost impossible. Starbucks franchises and Christian tattoo parlors are now on church property. Rappers, hula praise dancers, contortionists, acupuncturists, liposuctionists, the side show of evangelicalism has an ever expanding cast of performers. The future of evangelicalism is here and it comes as an Elvis impersonator. Worse, in a quest for what's real, false teaching is entering through the traditions of the East, like meditation and yoga in the new Emergent church movement." - Slice of Laodicea

what does this section have to do with Willow Creek. shouldnt it really be reserved for The Purpose Driven Life? I believe it should be taken out, however, I am happy to give someone a chance to explain the connection.

"what does this section have to do with Willow Creek. shouldnt it really be reserved for The Purpose Driven Life?" Bill Hybels and his Willow Creek, seeker sensitive, church growth movement have a lot in common with and promotes Rick Warren and his false teachings, encapsulated in the Purpose Driven® Life book and the whole Purpose Driven® movement. They work very closely together and share the spotlight with each other and many other false teachers. They run the "Purpose Driven®" program at Willow Creek, deceiving even more people. From Willow Creek's website: Resources for Spiritual Fitness - August 24 The Purpose-Driven Lifeby Rick Waren, " Free yourself to live the life God intended. Written by the pastor of Saddleback Church, Rick Warren challenges readers to learn to live the life God intended." Where in all of the Bible does it teach you to "Free yourself?" We cannot free ourselves at all. Only the truth can set us free, the truth of our LORD Jesus Christ revealed to us through His Word, The Bible. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, no one can come to the father except through Him. So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. Only Jesus Christ can set us free and if he has set us free we will be free indeed! It is a very deceptive book The Purpose Driven Life and if you go to "External Links to critiques of Rick Warren and his Purpose Driven® movement" section here Rick Warren on Wiki, there are enough essays and articles and audios there to thoroughly expose Rick Warren's false teachings and Scripture twisting. No book outside of Holy Scripture can set us free, especially not Rick Warren's stuff. Both Bill Hybels and Rick Warren promote unsound teaching. They have brought the world's systems into the church. Fides Viva 14:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Major Rewrite

I am currently completely rewriting this article for the purpose of cleaning it up and making it a neutral point of view. it is rediculously biased against the Willow Creek Church and the purpose driven life movement(which has little to do with the church).

Bill Hybels...promotes Rick Warren and his false teachings, encapsulated in the Purpose Driven® Life book...and share the spotlight with each other and many other false teachers. They run the "Purpose Driven®" program at Willow Creek, deceiving even more people... Rick Warren challenges readers to learn to live the life God intended." Where in all of the Bible does it teach you to "Free yourself?" We cannot free ourselves at all. Only the truth can set us free... It is a very deceptive book The Purpose Driven Life...there are enough essays and articles and audios there to thoroughly expose Rick Warren's false teachings and Scripture twisting. No book outside of Holy Scripture can set us free, especially not Rick Warren's stuff. Both Bill Hybels and Rick Warren promote unsound teaching. They have brought the world's systems into the church. Fides Viva 14:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

This is an obviously opinionated statement and it comes out blatantly in the writing of the article. this violates these rules: 1. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further. See What Wikipedia is not for more info. 2. Avoid bias. Articles should be written from a neutral point of view, representing differing views on a subject factually and objectively.

we need to make a encyclopedia entry.

RE-MAJOR REWRITE Your major rewrite is nothing but an AD for Bill Hybels and his band of false teachers. It is NOT neutral at all. My statements are NOT opinionated, they are statements made after many hours of thorough research. Leave my links to the critiques alone. The critiques are genuine concerns. Thankyou. Bill Hybels is a false teacher, just like Rick Warren and Robert Schuller and he and his Willow Creek associations are deceiving millions of people around the world and should be thoroughly exposed for the "wolves in sheeps clothing" they are. They have crept into the church unaware. The information about these false teachers MUST be addressed and made freely available to Wikipedia Users to study for themselves and to find out the truth about what is going on in Willow Creek and the whole seeker sensitive/purpose driven/church growth movement. It is NOT biblical what they are doing. They are leading millions of people around the world astray.Fides Viva 21:14, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

See mediator's response at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/22_12_2005_Willow_Creek_Community_Church -- Steven McCrary 22:35, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Call to civility

I don't really want to take sides, but I stand by the NPOV tag. Perhaps it should have been a "This article is a battlefield" tag. I myself have introduced very little content, but rather have been trying to tone down content introduced by people on either side of the argument. I can feel the sparks, and I feel like a moderator. I don't really want this role, as it can be quite emotionally taxing. However, the Willow Creek article is the only one on my watchlist, precisely because it seems to need constant moderation. Rather than hacking away strong viewpoints, try to bring the two sides into balance with each other.

In reference to the "Quality" tag, I think that the article is largely a set of disparate parts. It needs rewriting to tie the parts together, extensive restructuring and editing to unify the voice. Also, strong POV along the lines of a polemic rant, though fortunately confined mostly to the talk page, is a problem from BOTH SIDES. Please please PLEASE be civil; I don't want to see blood on this article. --John Hupp 23:02, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the timely reminder: "Please please PLEASE be civil;.." I will try my hardest and best! Thanks for your advice as well. Sorry to have caused you grief, please forgive me. The articles looks heaps better now, I am reasonably happy with the latest edits. A job well done. Regards, Fides Viva 18:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Response to the Mediator

I asked for a mediator from the Mediation Cabal and Steven McCrary responded with this following: "Mediator response: Greetings, These criticisms are from legitimate sources, therefore they should not be removed. However, I agree that the section is overbearing, messy, long, and needs cleanup, but not removal. Put the criticism back in, tone it down, and clean it up. It may be necessary to move much of it to its own page."

  • Here are the changes which I have made based on this. I really do hope that this gives a NPOV to the article and gives both sides of the argument an acceptable solution. Steven reccomended cleaning up and toning down of the criticism. I have done so. I also, limited the links to only ones which specifically mention Willow Creek.
  • Steven reccomended that it "may be necessary to move much of it to its own page." I have done so. It seems that much of the criticism is for not just Willow Creek, but also, Bill Hybels, A Purpose Driven Life, Saddleback Church, and several other issues surrounding megachurches. for that reason, I have created a page called Criticisms of Mega Churches This is essentially the main body of criticism from the Willow Creek article. I have linked to this new page in the "See Also" section of the Willow Creek Article, as well as the Megachurch article. The Criticisms of Mega Churches article still needs to be cleaned up significantly, but it is off to a good start.


I sincerely apologize if any of my remarks on this talk page have been inflamatory in anyway. I hope we can all come to a happy medium!

--Mshuflin 00:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"I sincerely apologize if any of my remarks on this talk page have been inflamatory in anyway." Likewise. Please forgive me for being rather abrupt. "I hope we can all come to a happy medium!" I agree. I am reasonably happy with the latest updates by yourself and the Mediator's decision, though there are one or two points I may query. I am a bit exhausted at present, so if you do not mind, I will leave off what I would like to say for the moment about the POV of the article and maybe discuss it with you in the near future. That is, if it is fine with you? I am still adamant that there is much that is wrong with Willow Creek, Bill Hybels teachings, Seeker Sensitive, Church Growth and Purpose Driven®(which Willow Creek uses) methods and models and they have brought much error into the church. Those places have become more entertainment centers rather than sound expositors of the full-orbed doctrinal truths of the Word of God, the Bible and not true worshippers of God, in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. They have adopted worldly and pagan practices to worship the LORD Jesus Christ, God, with. Falsehood really bothers me and it is very difficult to expose false teachers and false teachings and reprove them and rebuke them and remove them. There is no such person as a "seeker-sensitive" person prior to being "born again." Seeking God is the aim of the Christian and no one else. The church is the body of believers, the body of Christ, not for the non-believer. One of the churches roles is to go out into the whole world and preach the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ and Him crucified on a bloody brutal roman cross, died and buried and raised again on the third day, shedding His blood for the remission of sins of His chosen people, His Elect, chosen by God Himself before the very foundations of the world in timeless eternity. People may seek the things that God can provide, like peace and felt needs meet etc., but they flee the God who exists and love the darkness rather than the light and want nothing to do with the God who is thrice times holy prior to the "new birth." The wrath of God abides upon the degenerate sinful wicked constantly. And in reality, there is only one "TRUE SEEKER" and that is God Himself, who came to seek and save the lost. Study this article carefully, as it articulates many of the concerns raised regarding the "seeker-sensitivbe/church growth" movement of which Willow Creek is a part, clearly: The Gospel According to Hybels & Warren. People desperately need to know the truth of the falsehoods and leaven that have and are being taught in Willow Creek and many other organizations and churches like Willow Creek and the "seeker-sensitive/church growth/purpose driven movements" around the world. Already Bruce Wilkinson of "Prayer of Jabez" falsehood infamy has chucked in the towel over his grandiose ideas and schemes for Swaziland in Afica and pulled out and left people bewildered and disillusioned: Bruce Wilkinson Abandons Orphan Village Plans in Africa "The front page of today's Wall Street Journal has a report on Bruce Wilkinson of The Prayer of Jabez fame. Apparently, things aren't going so well in his attempts to expand his borders to create tourists attraction/industrial complexes/children's homes in Swaziland." These men(and women eg:Joyce Meyer) export Americanized, westernized, materilistic, crossless, love yourself, no denial of self or dying to self Christianity, all over the place. Shame!!! In your article about Willow Creek, you have T. D. Jakes listed as one of the speakers at Willow Creek's Leadership Summit included and he is one out and out heretic and false prophet and false teacher, who denies the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. Where is Willow Creek's and Bill Hybels' discernment? How can true Christian's trust Bill Hybels and Willow Creek when they have false teachers like Jakes appearing on stage with them? Respectfully Fides Viva 10:50, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
To: Mr. Viva,
  • Greetings, Your opinion and concerns are duly noted by this reader. Although I do not share these concerns, neither have I spent the time you have spent looking into these issues. I think we should remember here that Wikipedia is not a public forum for complaining, nor is it a bulletin board; it is an encyclopedia. As such, we can only report the facts and let the reader draw the conclusions. At this point, I believe the your POV is duly represented; and thank-you for it.
  • About Mr. Jakes, if you know something about his published beliefs, by all means put it in Wikipedia, but it may not be appropriate on this page. Maybe on the Jakes page.
  • Anyway. Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year.
Steven McCrary 16:41, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Steven McCrary, thankyou for your response and advice. Happy New Year to you too. No staying up to the wee hours on New Years Eve. Just kidding! :) Fides Viva 09:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] why i reverted it

"In December 2005, Willow Creek garnered attention from the media for not holding services on Christmas Day. The church is closed every year on Christmas day regardless of the day of the week the service falls on."

If we can find a source for this, then I am cool with putting it back in. however, I live in the same apartment building with two people who work at Willow Creek, and they told me that this year was the first time Willow Creek has not had services on Christmas Day when it fell on a sunday.

This is the rule at the church and it has always been that way for the 25+ years. There is no question about it. If there is a doubt, I suggest one contact WCCC. They have an open call center during weekdays that is trained to answer trivial and general questions about the church. The last December 25 that fell on a sunday was 1994. I would double check to see if they worked at the Church that far back. - targeter

[edit] 20/20 rule

I removed this because I am not sure that this belonged in the beliefs section, nor is there any citing of sources for this. I feel that if there are sources cited, I would say it should go back, however, not under beliefs. perhaps in a trivia section or something of that sort.

"Members and attenders jokingly abide by the 20/20 rule. Church is never canceled unless there is 20 inches or rain or snow. On occasional that this rare weather condition exist, the church does cancel services." --Mshuflin 02:28, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It strikes me as hearsay, so I would just leave it out. —Rob (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


I was the one who added that. That is not hearsay. That rule has existed since the time of Ortberg and Strobel. Perhaps a trivia sections is needed, guess I might get on working on that. - targeter --

[edit] Critical external links

Here are the critical external links I removed from the page. Please choose the three best ones, and return them to the page. The page was severely biased when it has this big list. -Colin MacLaurin 04:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clarify Attendees Statement

The summary of the article lists: "The church has three weekend services with approximately 17,000-20,000 attendees."

Is that the number of attendees per service, or total number of attendees for all the services? I spent a few minutes looking at the Willow Creek website, but couldn't find the answer. Stephenbez 08:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

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