Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

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To-do list for Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling: edit  · history  · watch  · refresh

Changes:

Change all mentions of "the WWE" to "WWE."
Change all mentions of WWE before May 8, 2002 to "WWF" or "the WWF", including championships and pay-per-views.
Change all mentions of WWE before March 1979 to "the WWWF", including championships and shows.
Change "Total Nonstop Action" to "Total Nonstop Action Wrestling", especially in championships and accomplishments. Titles won in TNA should not be listed under NWA, since the categorization refers to the company they were won in, not the governing bodies.
Change "Category:Professional wrestlers" to "Category:American(/British/Mexican etc.) professional wrestlers" where appropriate.

Adding:

Add Template:Infobox Wrestler to wrestler bio pages that don't have it
Add Template:Infobox Wrestling team to tag team and stable articles that don't have it
If not much information is available use Paulley's bio profile model in wrestler bios
Add the {{Pro-wrestling}} template to the talk pages of wrestling articles, and any article edited as part of this project
If the page needs expanding because it is a stub, please add {{prowrestling-stub}} or {{prowrestling-bio-stub}} to the article where appropriate.

Articles to cleanup: Heel (professional wrestling), Samoa Joe, Monday Night Wars, Eric Young, The Embassy (professional wrestling), The Invasion (professional wrestling), Al Snow

Articles to create: Buddy Wayne, Cauliflower Alley Club, Little Tokyo, Ladies Professional Wrestling Association

Articles up for deletion: Konan Big, World Wrestling Coalition, King of Extreme, Ultimate WrestleZone Tournament, Jake Ashworth, List of professional wrestling finishing maneuvers, Dave Nevada

Articles to expand: Please see Category:Professional wrestling stubs and Category:Professional wrestling biography stubs for full list.

Articles to merge: Pinfall (professional wrestling)/Pin (wrestling), Texas Wrestling Alliance/Texas Wrestling Academy, Rita Chatterton/Professional Wrestling Referee, Diane Klimaszewski/Elaine Klimaszewski

Articles to recreate:

Articles to watch: Curt Hennig, WrestleMania 23, Jerry Lawler, Nick Bockwinkel, NWA World Heavyweight Championship, NWA World Tag Team Championship, Allen Coage, Ernie Ladd, Arnold Skaaland

Categories up for deletion: Wrestling Society X championships

Proposed moves: ECW One Night Stand → WWE One Night Stand

Cleanup: Format professional wrestling articles according to the style guide.

Locating and rewriting articles: There are many articles like this floating about Wikipedia that read "Pro wrestler. now dead. won title once". Clean them up, add the correct categories and stub them (when needed).

Correcting links: Articles look better with footnotes as opposed to embedded citations. Try to convert the later to the former.

Photo requests Many wrestling articles need a photo to improve their quality. A list can be found here: Needed Pro Wrestling Photos

Wikify: Takeo Otsuka
Archive
Archives

Contents

[edit] Proposal re: nationality/flagicon/country name etc. in biography infoboxes

Proposal Howzabout generally adopting the format I've used for the Harry Smith (wrestler) and Darren Matthews pages?

  • Opening line states nationality anyway.
  • Nationality flagicon next to name. Two in the case of Harry who is dual-nationality.
  • Regional flagicon next to birthplace reflecting state or province if applicable (e.g. Harry Smith from Alberta, William Regal from England, Steve Austin from Texas)
  • omitting country name from infobox in cases of above being as opening sentence states it anyway and it would un-clutter the infobox. Suriel1981 17:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I think on balance always including the country is more informative. This is also the standard used in the standard biographical infobox and in most sports infoboxes. States and provinces aren't always important in less federalised countries, and flags aren't instantly recognisable to everyone. Country of origin / residence is a fairly core fact, so I don't think it can be considered "clutter". McPhail 18:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
About Harry Smith, can he really be considered British? He wasn't born in and doesn't live in the UK. He was born in Canada and lives in the United States (I think), just being the son of someone British doesn't make a person British. TJ Spyke 19:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
He's spent some amount of time here, is eligible to live here as a British citizen and wears the Union Jack on his attire. When you're talking dual-nationality it tends to go on how the person prefers it. Harry Smith seems comfortable being British-Canadian Suriel1981 21:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Well it doesn't matter what he is considered by anyone. He holds 3 passports, so he gets three nations. Most ppl outside of the UK don't know Finley is British...saying that, can someone put the tricolour up there for him? Since that's the way we're going.Halbared 00:51, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll support the use of flagicons, but insist that the country name be included for several reasons:

Finlay is from Northern Ireland (part of the United Kingdom), so of coarse he is British. The only people who don't know that are people who suck at geography (it's like thinking someone from Puerto Rico isn't American even though PR is part of the United States). WWE doesn't help matters though by announcing him as from Belfast, Ireland rather than Belfast, Northern Ireland. TJ Spyke 00:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
WEll he is pushed by the comnpany as Eire/Irish yeh, and with all the green and stuff, so I could understand why people outside of the UK get confused. You bringing up Puerto Rico made me look at it. I thought it was a protectorate of the US, but is is classed as a commonwealth under the federal government. Savio Vega is the only wrestler I can think of (just thought of Calos Colon) from there. So the US flag oes next to his name and a Puerto Ricon one next to his billed status...had somoneone made a Puerto Ricon one yet?Halbared 01:12, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Flag icons exist mostly as visual embellishments. An audio reader or a text-only browser would not have this information (thus, these readers would lose out on key information such as "Flag of Canada London" referring to a Canadian or British location, because that information is from the flag). Furthermore, they are used in contexts where it is strictly speaking not necessary (or irrelevant) - for example, "Flag of United States John Cena" in the most recent #1 on the PWI 500.
  • Consistency - most other uses of flagicons at Wikipedia have both country names with their icons.

For dual nationality persons, one typically uses their primary nationality - for example, Chris Benoit IIRC holds US citizenship, but is regarded as Canadian, and thus only the Canadian flag is shown. I believe that there is an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice hockey regarding whether secondary nationalities (eg. Wayne Gretzky holding US citizenship) should be included. Regional flags seems appropriate, but I'm going against on theoretical principles (even if arguably the majority of professional wrestlers are from federalized states) - the only time I've seen regional flags is from within a national context (eg. Canadian national men's ice hockey team lists the rosters of recent Canadian teams, with players represented by province). kelvSYC 20:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am starting to think I opened a big pile of whoopass! but anyway this was probably coming. With the flag icons to text. Another aspect is the up and coming Mobile internet like G3. If have used it and had a look that is more text based than graphics. Things like flagicon's wont come up. So it's best if we keep the country names in the fields as one of the reasons for keeping them. Govvy 12:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

For the record, Benoit is a Canadian (born in Quebec, raised in Alberta) who legally resides in the United States. Finlay is technically British, but is billed as being from "Belfast, Ireland" because many Northern Irish consider the British occupation of their six counties to be illegal. Manager Of Champions 22:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Without wanting to comment on the NI situation, I'm fairly sure that Finlay has only been billed from "Belfast, Ireland" since he's been working in the USA. I'm guessing that this is more to do with his fighting Irishman persona he's used in WCW and WWE. Suriel1981 12:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Konan big

This is a profile for "Konan big". A lot of bad grammar, I tried to fix some things, but I didn't feel it was worth it. Maybe delete the article? Kris Classic 23:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

That article is pretty poor (although you made it better). I have prodded the article. TJ Spyke 19:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
He seems to be a headliner for a couple of Mexican indies with some midcard work in AAA (I think). English google hits are to do with his match results and my Spanish is too poor to translate other pages about him. I think he'd fail notability. The picture on his page looks like it's going to be deleted for no attempt to meet licensing criteria. Suriel1981 19:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Upcoming Events (Matches etc.)

In a discussion over on Batista's talk page, it was deemed against the guidelines to mention that a wrestler has an upcoming match on a card that has not yet happened. But the example arose that if it hasn't happened yet, it shouldn't be on Wikipedia; meaning that the Wrestlemania 23 page, which has the matches that will occur, is violating the same guidelines. That doesn't seem to make sense that the event pages can have upcoming matches on them but the wrestler pages cannot. Here's my original question:

Wouldn't this mean that for the wrestling PPVs, they wouldn't be allowed to post the card until it's already happened?

---- GIGGAS2 21:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

No. The guideline (which was established by us) is for articles on wrestlers, not the PPV articles. That is why the warning saying that doesn't appear on PPV articles (there is a different warning for that). TJ Spyke 21:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Why the difference between event and wrestler pages then? ---- GIGGAS2 21:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, how are we supposed to talk about the PPV without the matches? Another, articles on wrestlers and events are written differently. TJ Spyke 21:33, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Warring on the spelling of Encyclopaedia

It's odd that User:Proudformykids would create a profile, be welcomed by User:TJ Spyke and then within 10 minutes make their first ever Wikipedia contribution a revert on Halbared's spelling of "encyclopaedia" and "rumour" on our main page.
Ahh well, I always assume good faith, so I'll have to guess the new user just picked an odd place to start a glorious career on editing. Make no mistake though, if I get the impression someone is creating sockpuppets for editwarring on the WP:PW page then I will harass every single admin I can find to get that person blocked for vandalism.
Peace out! Suriel1981 02:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I welcome everyone (registered and IPs) who make edits to pages on my watchlist. It is spelled encyclopedia though, hell, even the WP logo uses this spelling (aedia is the old fashioned way of spelling, almost every source both in the US and UK either use just edia or both edia and aedia). TJ Spyke 02:27, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to start banning people for WP:3RR if this idiocy keeps up. Both spellings are correct, and any English-literate person can read it, so who cares which way it's spelled? Please find something constructive to do with your time. I am not singling anyone out specifically. You're all on notice. Shape up. — Gwalla | Talk 05:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

How about some people who OBVIOUSLY have a lot of time on their hands work on improving various wrestling articles instead? I mean it's not like we're lacking articles that can be expanded, if I'm not mistaken there are like 800+ pages listed on the two pro-wrestling stub pages. So work on that, contribute to the project instead of something as silly as this?? Just a thought MPJ-DK 06:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree with Gwalla and MPJ-DK with this. First off, you're having an edit war over warnings for our articles. It doesn't matter how its spelt as long as inexperienced editors we're trying to focus on get the point. This is not a British English encylopaedia, an American English encylopedia, Australian, or whatever, it's simply English. And unless there's a split between the different variations (and trust me, I'm already laughing at the fact a Scots Wikipedia actually exists) there shouldn't be a real preference for this. -- Oakster  Talk  12:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

26 years and I still haven't learnt the fine art of not overreacting... I apologise to those concerned for my part in this. Time for me to get back to what I do best: creating fancruft, smoking excessively and supporting my fellow WP:PW editors. Suriel1981 13:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keep an eye on Wrestlemania 25

We have a bit of a problem going on at the page. User:Jet2006 is adding nonsense to it again. Hope you can help out by keeping a close eye on the page. -- bulletproof 3:16 23:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW the problem is on Wrestlemania 25 not at WrestleMania 25. -- bulletproof 3:16 23:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Just delete it. While we know it'll happen, that doesn't mean there needs to be a page for it right now. Mshake3 01:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats the point of the redirect. The user is reverting it and adding his own nonsense.-- bulletproof 3:16 01:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I ment to actually delete the article, so at least if he attempts to recreate it, it'll be with the correct spelling of WrestleMania 25. Mshake3 02:06, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
My concern here is not whether the spelling of the page name is correct or not. My concern is the fact that this user is continuously adding nonsense to the page and no one has noticed this but me. That is why I'm bringing this to the project talk page. To inform you of this problem and to suggest that the page be added to your watchlists. -- bulletproof 3:16 02:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Throw a little policy at him and have it deleted and locked. Mshake3 03:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
He just created the article a few days ago (with that nonsense). As soon as you said something, I put it on my watchlist. There won't be any info on it for a year, so there should be no edits to either page yet. TJ Spyke 03:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NWA Wisconsin article?

What happened to it? Obviously it was deleted. Just wanted to know what was on the article. Govvy 12:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Ask User:CesarB, he is the admin who deleted it according to the deletion log. TJ Spyke 21:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WWE Results

Would someone put this through the proper deletion process? I know lots of "results" articles like this have been deleted before, and since I'm taking a long break from editing, I would hope that one of you could work on it. Thanks. 69.208.72.214 23:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PWI 500 lists

I'm not sure if this may be of any help, however I've recently been working on the PWI 500 lists and have completed PWI 500 (1991), PWI 500 (1992), PWI 500 (1993), PWI 500 (1994), PWI 500 (1995), PWI 500 (1996) and PWI 500 (1997). The lists have proved useful in creating/fixing needed redirects as well as providing a wanted list of sorts. MadMax 05:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

As much as I support this, those are technically copyright violations and will most likely be deleted (just like similar lists like "Rolling Stone Top 100 songs" have been). TJ Spyke 06:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think they'd probably be put up for deletion as fancruft, other listy pages have been removed for that reason. I have no problems with the lists. As a "to do list" it needs serious edits some blue links aren't actually right (ex. Judge Dredd) and some redlinks should be blue because the article has a different name etc. MPJ-DK 13:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure the list qualify as fancruft, given as the PWI 500 is compiled by a major publication (such as The Top 100 Crime Novels of All Time or Sexiest Man Alive). Also, as far as I'm aware, there would only be a copyright issue if the article itself was either unreferenced or was literaly copied word-for-word from the article such as the summeries and other stats; however, neither is the case here. I would think, after some editing, the list might serve as a useful wanted articles list if it cannot be used as part of the PWI 500 article itself. MadMax 16:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

If there are no problems copyright wise and everything then I'll be happy to help make the links as correct as possible MPJ-DK 16:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be a great help, thanks. I haven't watched wrestling regularly for a few years now and could use some assistance especially in the newer pages such as Pro Wrestling Illustrated/PWI 500 (2005) and Pro Wrestling Illustrated/PWI 500 (2006). MadMax 18:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be a copyright issue since you are just copying their list. An article on the PWI 500 is allowed (it already exists though), these however are copyright violations. I am tempted to nominate them myself. Right from WP:C: "Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia."

So while PWI can't copyright the idea of a top wrestlers lists, or the wrestlers names, they can copyright these lists themselves. AFAIK, every other similar list that has been nominated for deletion has always been deleted. TJ Spyke 22:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

See Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time for how it should be done. You can do like the Top 10, and talk about the list in general, but you can't post the entire list. TJ Spyke 22:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I've moved the lists to my User page and removed its links from Pro Wrestling Illustrated. MadMax 04:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WWE Experience - many different shows under the same name

Right now, the information about WWE Experience is regarding several similar but separate shows (the one that used to be on Spike and the one currently on The Score in Canada are prime examples), and the article needs cleanup and possibly a split (I wouldn't go that far personally). As an example, the infobox claims that The Score is credited as the creator, while Todd Grisham is credited as the host (the last time Grisham hosted anything on the Score was when Raw was still on TSN in Canada). So if someone would know a bit more they can help clean it up. Here's how I can chip in, knowing the Canadian version of Experience and having seen the original Experience once or twice:

  • The show is produced by The Score and not WWE, and is hosted by Score anchors (Ryan Paton, Derek Snider, and Sid Seixiero have all been seen hosting the show) inside the Score studio, WWE provides all of the content (and my POV statement is that Ryan Paton's announcing is too over-the-top compared to Score Today, Snider's is too unemotional compared to Branded or Sportsworld, and Sid Seixiero is somewhat muted compred to Score Tonight). It also differs from international versions of the Experience in that there are no ECW highlights unless it is of any significance to a Raw or SmackDown! storyline (eg. Battle of the Billionaires), and even then it is only in photos. And, unlike other Canadian WWE broadcasts, no Jack Korpela with that annoying Canadian update segment (the Score hosts do it themselves).
  • There are out-of-kayfabe interviews (Outside the Ring) with WWE personalities on the Canadian Experience, conducted whenever said personality makes some promotional appearance in Canada - even if that said personality does not normally appear on Raw or SmackDown! (eg. there was an interview with Lashley not long after he won the ECW World Championship, which focused on his work in ECW)
  • There is viewer feedback through The Score, although they have yet to answer viewer questions on-air. Viewer input has been used on occasion - the recent Score 64-like Wrestlemania highlight tournament was a regular feature.

Another issue is the 15-minute Raw pre-show on The Score (which has been in place since RaceNight was off Monday night) which may need to be mentioned. Not having seen the pre-show (credited as WWE Countdown to Raw on the on-screen TV guide and part of the Raw proper on the network), I don't know if it's a special 15-minute edition of Experience, or something with a similar format (but I do know that it is Score-produced and is exclusive to the first Canadian airing, and that there is no pre-game for SmackDown!). In either case it may need to be mentioned on the Raw or Experience article.

On a side note, surprisingly, there is no simsub of SmackDown! in Canada, unlike other shows (Canadian regulations have it that in cases where both a Canadian and American channel have the same episode of the same show on at the same time, the Canadian feed is shown on both channels, which is the case for SmackDown! for two of the three CW affiliates available in Canada - the one on WPIX is on at the same time as the early airing on The Score and the one on KTLA is on at the same time as the late airing - the third is WGN), due to the Score Ticker taking away portions of the screen.

kelvSYC 02:51, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Project Barnstar/Award?

I worked for a bit and came up with a barnstar award for the project. I wasn't going to upload it unless I was informed that it was a good idea, though. It's not the best, but it's decent, I think. I don't want to be uploading something that negatively impacted the project. Thanks! ---- GIGGAS2 04:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't read the guidelines that I just found. I'll follow them. Thanks. ---- GIGGAS2 04:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I've had the proposed barnstar up at Wikipedia:Barnstar and award proposals/New Proposals for a decent amount of time. I don't know how many of you have taken a look at it, but give it a look. It might not look the best but who knows. It could work. ---- GIGGAS2 | Talk 18:54, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rationales in Professional wrestling match types

As we know, PWMT needs to be cleaned up, and I have User:kelvSYC/Professional wrestling match types a draft of what it can be cleaned up to. I've previously tried to establish new criteria that seems to be acceptable to all. But now, i also propose that we include a rationale as to why a match is a specialty and is worthy of inclusion - ie. a match type is not notable just because of its rules. Why is a blindfold match notable? After all, isn't it just a standard match, but with blindfolds? Isn't a "taped fist match" just one where the competitors tape their fists? By this new criteria, the latter would not be included (many wrestlers already tape their fists) and the former could only be included if some context is given (such is "levelling the playing field if one competitor was previously blinded"). My cleanup (still in progress) would cut the sections down to just a few:

  • The leading paragraph is now more detailed - why are specialty matches specialty, and why wrestlers "obey the rules" at all, that kind of stuff (after all, a specialty match can have both competitors blatantly disregard the rules, making the point of having a specialty match moot).
  • A treatise on standard matches, and common ways of making a specialty match out of a standard match. This includes triple-threat, eliminations, etc.
  • True specialty matches - this is the area where if we have too much information we split it off to their own article, in theory. A lot of the crap we can consolidate down to maybe 10 or 12 specialty matches inside the article (either because it's too non-notable or it's been split into their own articles).

I think that PWMT, with these changes (which I am unwilling to commit to the real article until I solicit feedback - and finish my draft), may be to the point where we can give it GA or even FAC status. Your thoughts?

kelvSYC 22:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International World Class Championship Wrestling

I'm not sure if this has been brought up previously, however I noticed International World Class Championship Wrestling was deleted recently apparently due to an uncontested prod tag. The article itself seemed to be fairly lengthy and well written, however I'm curious if there are any notability guidelines established for independent promotions? If I remember correctly, IWCCW was a long established promotion in the New England area and much of its roster consisted of present day ECW alumni (many of whom immediatly signed with following the IWCCW's close). I am surprised that there was little discussion on it either for or against its deletion. MadMax 03:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Indy promotions have to pass the basic guidelines at WP:N and WP:CORP. You can request a deletion review at WP:DRV, maybe recommend that it go to an AFD (so that people can discuss whether it should stay or go. TJ Spyke 04:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I only mention it in passing as I didn't notice it on the to do list. I'm certainly far from an authority, however I was curious weither the project it was unaware of its nomination or that the general consensus was it was ultamatly non-notable. I probably would say, having lived in New England, that Chaotic Wrestling was a major independent Boston-based promotion (and, depending on who you talk to, was supposedly one of the factors which kept ECW out of New England until the late 1990s). However, in the face of notability guidelines regarding secondary sources, it admittedly falls short. MadMax 04:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about others, but I didn't know about it and no one mentioned the PROD here. TJ Spyke 04:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

If anyone is interested then I have a copy of the article on IWCCW (as well as ICW and CCW that are also gone now) that I took right when I joined Wikipedia, I was planning on expanding these plus a few others but they're deleted now. If anyone is interested in trying to expand the articles and establish notoriety I'd be happy to give you the text - otherwise they'll remain my pet project. MPJ-DK 16:15, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Given the fact that it was promoted by former NWA wrestler Angelo Savoldi and was the main stomping grounds for many of ECW's veterans as well as many of the top stars on the East Coast, it seems that it would at least be worth discussion at Afd. Arguably under those same guidelines, Stampede Wrestling or World Class Championship Wrestling could face deletion as well. I'd certainly be willing to help on any deleted articles to see if they have a chance can be recreated. MadMax 20:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Angelo Savoldi must be notable, he doesn't even have his own article LOL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gotoax (talk • contribs).

With IWCCW and a few other federations closing down before the net got big there aren't that many net related sources to find, esperially not sources that wouldn't be considered "fan sites" - official sites of some of the wrestlers involved maybe, perhaps archives of local papers might have some sources but beyond that it's hard to find sources. MPJ-DK 08:27, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

btw - if you're interested in helping improve the page and add sources to it I got a version up on my user pages that I'm going to work on user:MPJ-DK/IWCCW

[edit] There's a lot of unreferenced stuff here.

List of professional wrestling finishing maneuvers —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gotoax (talk • contribs).

I've been tempted to go for an AFD on that page for a few weeks but they (somehow) managed to keep the page from deletion in January so maybe it's too soon Suriel1981 01:21, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I like wrestling move pages, but I do agree maybe it should be deleted. TJ Spyke 01:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm assuming that the page was a part of that one gigantic AfD. If this page were nominated on its own, then I'm sure that it would succeed. That big AfD was just an overall terrible idea, but this page is pretty unnecessary, and it is unsourced like you said. If you want to AfD it, then go ahead. -- The Hybrid 01:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll prepare a case and see that it's done within the next hour Suriel1981 01:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of professional wrestling finishing maneuvers (2nd nomination) Suriel1981 02:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More infobox nonsense

This has been brought up before, and now has to be brought up again for some reason.

Does anyone, other than TJ Spyke, have a problem with adding the birth date and age, height, and weight templates to biography infoboxes to keep things standard (it works metric or imperial) or to linking cities and states as separate entities in infoboxes to save people from having to go through a city article to get to a state, should they care?«»bd(talk stalk) 01:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Check template:Infobox Wrestler for how they are supposed to be formatted (in regards to height and weight). Even at WP:BIO they said to just have one link for city, state (not two). I am not convinced it would help anyone anyways to have two links rather than one. TJ Spyke 02:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The wrestler infobox was set up in April of 2006, before any of the templates were made. There's no reason it can't now be changed and improved.«»bd(talk stalk) 02:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
it's probably archived now but the BIO people certainly gave a response that a single city,state link was okay with them. I actually think that birth date/age thing could be quite useful for the simple reason that fanboys sure love to customise the ages of their favourite grapplers and anything that stops unhelpful edits is okay with me. Suriel1981 02:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
When is the age ever really mentioned though? All the template does is make (age --) show up after the DOB. TJ Spyke 02:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I was just thinking of occasions when editors have inserted the age of their own volition and got it completely wrong, it could stop that. That would be my only reason for having it though. Encyclopaedias don't tend to have current ages of subjects so there isn't really a stylistic necessity for us to have it ourselves. Suriel1981 02:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Most encyclopedias don't have such an ability, this one does. It hurts nothing, and makes something available all the more easier. I really don't get the resistance. «»bd(talk stalk) 02:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The only people I can see it happening are those who dropped out of school when they were 6, everyone else can figure out how old someone is just by looking at their birthdate. So it doesn't really help anything. Even electronic enclycopedias don't inlcude this info. If I said my birtday was September 2, 1986, you could very quicky figure out I am 20. Same thing with others. TJ Spyke 03:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Totally get it, you don't like it, aside from that what's your objection?«»bd(talk stalk) 04:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering, while the subject is up for discussion, if it might be practical to official websites for {{Infobox Wrestler}} and {{pwcompanybox}} (especially as they are used on {{company}} such as the WWE). Also, I notice that a lot of trivial information such as nicknames, entrence music, finishing moves, etc. tend to take a significant amount of space on wrestlers articles. Perhaps incorporating these into {{Infobox Wrestler}} might be an option as well ? MadMax 04:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It'd be impractical to put those in infoboxes for most people because they do take up so much space. Putting another nine lines for former finisher and entrance music would make infoboxes huge.«»bd(talk stalk) 04:47, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I only mention it as it seems a topic which might potentially be brought up as uncyclopedic sooner or later. I hadn't taken into consideration that wrestlers would have as many as nine consistently used finishing moves, as opposed to Bret Hart's Sharpshooter or Ric Flair's Figure Four Leglock, although I certainly see your point (imagine how much room Hart's "five moves of doom" would take). MadMax 05:08, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Part of the problem would be that some people like to have huge lists of signature moves, adding generic holds and even stuff a worker doesn't do but is in his moveset on one of the video games. The infoboxes would end up being gigantic and completely negate the actual purpose of the infobox. Suriel1981 13:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Suriel1981 here...adding much more would defeat the purpose. --JohnDoe0007 11:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] article movelists

Just from the point I made above I was wondering if it is worth doing a blitz or establishing a firm guideline as to what signature moves should be retained on an article? I personally grit my teeth when I see some of the crap that's been added to some articles (generally by anon users of course). One issue is that if one removes NN/non-signature moves then generally some bright spark disagrees and reverts it or just replaces it with more crap, hence me pondering the possibility of a formal guideline/consensus. Suriel1981 13:27, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TFA

I have suggested that 2 articles under the WPPW banner should be on the Main Page as Today's featured article. Please feel free to add your comments here and here. Davnel03 16:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The Eddie article lacks sources. It won't make the cut unless people cite it between now and then.«»bd(talk stalk) 17:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Davnel, an article has to be a Featured Article before it can be a Today's Featured Article. Eddie Guerrero isn't a featured article (feel free to nominate it for FA if you think it will pass WP:FAC. TJ Spyke 20:57, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the only article we can nominate at the moment (and is currently nominated) is the Montreal screwjob article. -- Oakster  Talk  21:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
And I've just noticed you've nominated that again. I'll clean this all up. -- Oakster  Talk  21:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability guidelines for independent wrestler/promotions

As a lot of independent promotions, both defunct and active, seem to becoming deleted much more frequently. It might be worth thinking about establishing some guidelines in regards to what constitutes a "notable" independent wrestling promotion (as well as independent wrestlers). In my opinion, backyard feds and short lived local promotions certainly shouldn't considered notable. However, given the monopoly the WWE holds on North America, should independent organizations be excluded from major promotions such as the WWE, TNA, etc. ? Here are just a few suggestions and general questions to take in consideration:

  • How long a promotion has been running ?
Certainly any organization older then 5+, I would think should be considered. Likewise, defunct promotions which last between a few months to one or two years would not be considered notable.
  • How notable are its competitors ?
Recognized independent wrestlers such as Reckless Youth, Mike Quackenbush, Corporal Punishment, etc. who regularly compete in other notable organizations as opposed to wrestlers who are relatively new and whose careers are limited to a particularly minor and non-notable promotion such as many of the World Wrestling Coalition's roster. Also should former wrestlers from major promotions such as the WWF or WCW be taken into consideration as far as notability ? There are quite a few wrestlers which have won titles in independent promotions and mentioned in their respective articles. Should these promotions also be considered notable and, if not, should these titles be removed ?
  • In regards to references, I'm assuming newspaper coverage of wresting promotions to be rare apart from press releases, established magazines such as Pro Wrestling Illustrated, books by wrestling historians such as Gary Will and websites such as the Great Hisa's Puroesu Dojo. Personaly I am reluctant to use Obsessed With Wrestling, WIA and others as I've often run into errors and other inconsistancies over the years.

Again I'm only making general observations as coverage of independent wrestling seems to be inconsistent on Wikipedia. There are numerous title histories, rosters and event articles to and from non-existent independent promotions and a growing number of red links to notable wrestlers. It would certainly help matters to have some sort of set and established guidelines regarding this issue. What's notable to certain wrestling fans may seem completely trivial to others. MadMax 20:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The time a company has been in business has no direct effect on notability at all. Ring of Honor just recently became more than five years old, but it has been notable far longer than a month. Then again there must have been companies thaat have been around for ten years but still haven't accomplished notability. ↪Lakes (Talk) 07:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely right. XPW for example was around for about 4 years, yet was at one time the number 2 company in the USA (on audience attendance). What it probably comes down to is proof of notability through references. An article on a smaller promotion could be created and if it had enough independent references it would probably survive an AFD even if not many people had heard of it. Suriel1981 14:06, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • That's true enough, however those particular promotions had a bit more financial backing then the average independent promotion and without the benifit of the internet. How much coverage did ECW have, nevermind the USWA, SMW, WCCW or any of the old regional territories, prior to 1996 ? I'm refering to promotions which are recognized if only because they've been around so long. I'm certainly not suggesting a promotion be automatically considered notable simply because its been around a long time. I'm only suggesting if a promotion has been around for an unusally long amount of time if could warrent futrher investigation if not taken into consideration. MadMax 03:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When Should Kayfabe Be Brought In To Articles?

Looking at several articles under the Professional Wrestling banner, every word seems mainly under kayfabe, and nothing much real-life. It seems like these days if it's not announced on WWE.com, it's a lie. I can understand, if some idiot attempts to put, say for instance SmackDown spoilers on a wrestlers page, however what I can't understand is why we can't mention some stuff that happens behind the scenes. A few examples of what I'm talking about:

Taken from WrestleMania XX article

Right, so in this little bit, we know Goldberg defeated Lesnar, and they both got Stunnered. Refering back to by earlier point, there should be a line saying that the crowd reaction was not good as they were both leaving WWE (even WWE.com acknolowedges it! [1] South-West section 3rd one down). Why isn't there a line.

The other two examples now: Rob Van Dam

  • Right, so we know his contract is expiring, and he is unhappy with WWE (over going to TTTT late last year) and might join TNA. I don't know what you call it, but this is not a spoiler. His contract is expiring isn't spoiling anybody - fact of life, he might join TNA - it might happen again not a spoiler. How is it a spoiler - it's no lie.

Look, all I'm saying is that we should sometimes (not all the time) if necessary go out of kayfabe, if something has happened that should be mentioned.

My third example: Sabu One little part reads: At December to Dismember Sabu was originally to appear in the main event, an extreme elimination chamber match against The Big Show, Test, Rob Van Dam, CM Punk and Bobby Lashley, but was "taken out" and replaced by Hardcore Holly.

Right, now in kayfabe he was taken out, but back to real life he was taken out by WWE as he was in some kind of disagreement with them.

A little note for Paul Wight's page - there should be a note that he was physically unable to compete and he was struggling to compete in matches prior to December to Dismember.

I'm not saying we should step out of Kayfabe in every article, but we should if it is necessary, and I believe it is in these few examples. Leave a comment if you disagree with me. Davnel03 12:35, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd quite like getting rid of kayfabe altogether in articles. I'm sure there's a WP policy advising not to use kayfabe/equivalent at all, I could be wrong though. I do disagree with the RVD example though. If he was unhappy at WWE that would need to be cited. As for the future, any suggestion that he might join TNA violates WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL. Suriel1981 14:12, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Get rid of Kayfabe all together? Huh?? That's like articles on say "Star Wars" movies stripping away all references to the actual story and just focusing on the nuts and bolts of the production. An article on the history of a wrestler has to include the "kayfabe" aspects of the storylines etc as well as any relevant "Non-kayfabe" information that is needed, with proper sources about information such as the claims that RVD is unhappy etc. MPJ-DK 15:00, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Star Wars is a film, it's easy to know what is real and what is within the context of the storyline. Not many wrestling biogs satisfactorily differenciate between real-life and kayfabe. Suriel1981 15:32, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Getting rid of kayfabe is probably the right choice. I believe kayfabe falls under the writing about fiction guideline, which states that fictional events should be discussed in an "out-of-universe" perspective. That doesn't mean we can't discuss storylines, or how things were supposed to be perceived by the crowd, it just means that we can't pretend that stuff is "true". I think there are a lot of wrestling articles and bios that could use a clarifying clean-up. - Geoffg 15:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I weren't thinking of getting rid of kayfabe, it's just that if I put in information that's considered "real" (in RVD's example), it will more than likely get removed - we need a bit of clarification on when and when not to use it. Davnel03 16:02, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The only policy on kayfabe that we need is Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). We just need to actually follow it because in general wrestling articles are very bad in that respect. — Gwalla | Talk 19:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. Most of the more "mainstream wrestler" bios are horrific and make me despair of ever seeing another wrestling FA. I'll draw people's attention to the GA candidate Katsuhiko Nakajima as an example of a meticulous article, fully sourced, no cruft, no kayfabe whatsoever. Suriel1981 19:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Could we start putting non-kayfabe stuff into articles, or would we need some sort of consensus incase some users have a problem with us doing that? Oh, I've just found an example of a piece that needs to be edited into somebody's article [2]... Davnel03 19:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
A consensus would be good. I was planning to de-cruft/de-kayfabe Carly Colón but speedily realised that I'd need to butcher the article to do so and run the risk of an edit war Suriel1981 20:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
To the original poster, the problem with your examples are that they are all rumors. Goldberg/Lesnar leaving WWE are mentioned in their articles, but it has nothing to do with WM XX. Van Dam being unhappy and Sabu being in troubled are also based on rumors and not fact. I suppose if they come from a reliable site (i.e. Wrestling Observer) and you make it clear it's just a rumor, that might be acceptable (and keep out OR like RVD might be going to TNA). TJ Spyke 21:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to any attempt at removing kayfabe: the key reason being that kayfabe almost single-handedly define the sports entertainment business, or the career of a sports entertainer. You can't really compare a theatrical work with professional wrestling: the former has the character divorced from the person portraying it - not so in professional wrestling. While one can get sources about the off-camera shenanigans of your favorite movie entertainers (with many reputable sources therein), professional wrestling is still very closed-world (Does anyone know who's next in line to work in the WWE title program? Not only do we not know, we don't know who that person will be working with!). The non-kayfabe information is not very reputable or very verifiable: for example, we knew that Goldberg would leave WWE after WMXX, but he only alleges backstage politics as the primary reason. Does the backstage politics he referred to exist (ie. does Triple H really hold the booking power everyone except him says he does?)? We will never know for sure until the Entertainment has some kind of behind-the-scenes expose, which may never happen.

The key part is all about WP:V in this regard - kayfabe is easy to verify, the backstage politics is not. WP:WAF doesn't really apply as much as we want it to apply - to talk about the out-of-universe, you need to delve into sources that are nowhere as reliable or verifiable (as in: Wrestling Observer Newsletter may be the best known apter-like mag, and is generally a good source for the indies, but is what they report about WWE independently verifiable? By WWE sources? Where WWE can muzzle their talent about what to talk about?). I also have to note that the media has freely mixed kayfabe with the real-world in interviews with professional wrestlers (I recall a WWE Experience interview with Mickie James during her psycho-personality era about how fun it is to portray a psycho - or a heel in general, while in the same interview mention Carlito and his mother being Canadian). Point is, if you were to remove all traces of kayfabe from the typical professional wrestler's article, you might as well remove the article outright. kelvSYC 02:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

But the fact remains that kayfabe isn't real-life which is what's required in wrestler bios unless one was to, for example, write an article on Paul Michael Levesque and a seperate one on the storyline exploits of Hunter Hearst Helmsley. As was pointed out earlier, many wrestler bios are in clear violation of Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction). As several (non-WP:PW) editors pointed out in the Hulk Hogan FA debate, that seriously damages the credibility of our work and our chances of getting articles to mainstream WP acceptance. Suriel1981 02:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
But kayfabe is not fiction, and professional wrestling is not fiction. Professional wrestlers are not actors: they are not completely divorced from their characters or gimmicks as easily as actors. The career of a professional wrestler is defined by by the characters they portray. We cannot simply relate work-shoot to fiction-nonfiction, and there have been instances to where this blur is divided (after all, the Montreal screwjob, something clearly nonfictional happened, yet people are still divided over whether it was a work or a shoot). People do not refer to Paul Levesque by this name, as he has adopted Triple H as his own. This is different from an actor taking the name of a character, this is virtually the same as legally changing your name as far as the industry is concerned. A professional wrestler's career is largely defined by the exploits of their characters. I contend that WP:WAF doesn't really apply as much as we want to, and that WP:IAR can be judiciously applied here. kelvSYC 04:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I disagree. Kayfabe is clearly fiction. It just happens to be fiction that frequently draws on real events. Likewise, a wrestler's character is not the same as the wrestler portraying that character, although the character frequently contains elements of the real wrestler (understandable, since much of what they do and say is improvised). The distinction is obscured by the fact that many wrestlers use their own names for their in-ring personas. But really, that's not all that different from the distinction between Stephen Colbert the fictional right-wing pundit and Stephen Colbert the comedian who plays a right-wing pundit on TV.
Also, any time you have to use WP:IAR to defend a general policy rather than an individual exception to a policy, something is wrong. — Gwalla | Talk 06:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the main issue is, when deviating from kayfabe, there is a lot of hersey and he said/she said that goes when trying to describe real life situations. Personally speaking, I try to keep a professional wrestling related article as neutral as possible (ex. "Bret Hart defeated Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania" rather then "Michaels agreed to job to Hart"). I do think it's warrented however when it is the basis of a major event such as a law suit or witnessed at an event such as the Montreal screwjob. MadMax 04:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Your examples of non-kayfabe information are actually verifiable, as long as proper attribution is provided. For example, we can't say for certain that Goldberg left the WWE due to backstage politics, but we can say that he has said that he left due to backstage politics. Likewise, we shouldn't say that something is necessarily true just because the Wrestling Observer printed it, but we can say that the Wrestling Observer printed it. — Gwalla | Talk 06:22, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
My point is of course, as you've pointed out, is its a lot easier to verify the "Montreal screwjob" as opposed to a popular rumor (ex. a similar "screwjob" involving McMahon and Wendi Richter [3]. I'm not saying it should be excluded, only that editors should be far more careful on referencing popular rumor, "shoot" interviews, etc. MadMax 06:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Unless it can be verified by a realiable source (not just a site like Wrestling Observer or PWTorch), then any non-kayfabe info has to be sourced (like every other articl on WP). I give people a chance to find a source first with a {fact} tag, and only remove the statement if no one provides a source after a few weeks. TJ Spyke 10:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I realize the discussion has kind of shifted, so I'll address the original question first. I never got the impression that we couldn't add information that happens behind the scenes. The only problem this creates, as TJ Spyke and kelvSYC point out, is that most of that type of information is based in rumor and speculation...or at the very least, unverifiable. If it can be verified, such as information regarding Owen Hart's death or Brock Lesnar leaving WWE, then it should be included. But there is SO much speculation in the world of pro wrestling that if we were to start mentioning all rumors (and even stating them as such) it would just invite poor edits and additions as everyone who heard something would automatically add it and just say it's a rumor...obviously not the purpose here.

(I feel) it is relevant when the rumor had some sort of significant impact, such as when it was rumored Torrie Wilson was released after the return from Australia...It was reported in so many places that WWE had to release a statement claiming its falsehood and Torrie made her own comments stating how she thought she had been fired and no one bothered to tell her. I actually made this edit (with references) in her article, but it was reverted, seemingly maliciously...but that's another issue.

As for the rest of the discussion, I have no idea what anyone means by the removing of kayfabe completely. That is just beyond me. How is that possible? I read through the article Suriel1981 described as "a meticulous article, fully sourced, no cruft, no kayfabe whatsoever" (Katsuhiko Nakajima). Not only was it incredibly boring, but it was filled with kayfabe if you ask me. Where do you draw the line? Almost the entirety of his article is just listing how he teamed with this person and defeated those people, participated in this match, won that championship...Are matches and championships not considered kayfabe? Or did I just miss something and every one of the matches he competed in and promotions he wrestled for were actually real wrestling competetions in which he actually went into the match not knowing who was going to win and physically overpowered the other guy in the ring? If not, then I don't see how (with the removal of kayfabe) the guy would even have an article.

While I wouldn't go as far as kelvSYC in saying "professional wrestlers are not actors," I understand what he's saying. Pro wrestling is a form of entertainment unto itself, not exactly comparable to any other, in that it is an ongoing play, and (Shakespeare was wrong): the players don't really have their exits...even today, when it is widely accepted by the public and acknowledged by the industry itself that it is strictly entertainment and not an actual series of contests, it is still carried out as so.

The wrestlers are almost always in-character and many of their actions outside of the ring are part of the show. Therefore it is much more difficult to describe anything about them or their lives without describing something that was part of a work of fiction. In addition to this, as previously stated, the world of pro wrestling is still a closed door exclusive club, and it is very difficult to verify real-world reasons for storyline changes and wrestler actions. So if one wrestler were to leave one promotion and go to another, can we not say that "Wrestler A lost the championship and went to work for promotion B" simply because we can't verify that "person portraying wrestler A agreed to job and turn over a meaningless fake 'championship' because promotion B offered him a more lucrative contract and he wished to go fake wrestle for them instead?"

While I agree "Bret Hart defeated Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania," as MadMax stated, is the proper way to address the incident in an article, I would still consider it a mention of kayfabe. And there is nothing wrong with that. While it is stated as fact, and it is obvious one man didn't actually overpower the other, in the case of articles related to pro wrestling there is no better way to state such things. How else does one describe such events of a fictional world without having to say "Mark Hamill, the actor portraying the character of Luke Skywalker then pretended to fly a starship (which was actually a combination of camera techniques and production props in addition to post-production work including special effects and editing that made it look as though he was flying through space) to the fabled Dagobah system, where he made his way through a set that was designed to look like a swamp and met up with an animatronic device that filled in for a character (of a fictional species) named Yoda." Such language is just asinine and completely unecessary to fulfill WP:WAF requirements.

I have read many wrestling related articles that mention events relevant to the character and clarify them as part of the act: from Torrie Wilson: "Al then (kayfabe) died from a heart attack after having rigorous sex numerous times..." or from Hulk Hogan: "After Hogan won at WrestleMania XIX McMahon was frustrated with him (kayfabe) and 'wanted Hulkamania to die. '" While they may be worded a bit more strongly, there is nothing encyclopædically wrong with those statements, even by WP:WAF standards. Those types of storyline events are relevant in describing significant happenings in the subject's career, and therefore their lives; and as we already established in the case of pro wrestlers, their career is very much a part of their real life despite the fact that their career consists of portraying fictional events.

Removing kayfabe from articles would be the act of removing nearly every pro wrestling related article, or at least the majority of its content. --JohnDoe0007 11:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll address Katsuhiko Nakajima first. It is made clear he is a professional wrestler. Details of the shoot fight he had are followed by His true pro wrestling debut came... to make clear where the sport ends and the work begins. The casual reader is thus able to understand that subsequent career/match results are within the pro-wrestling world.
Where I really have a problem is the lack of distinction between fiction and reality. Whichever way you look at it, pro-wrestling is not a legitimate sport and the storylines are acting. I think we are all able to distinguish between fact and kayfabe in articles but Wikipedia isn't a wrestling fansite, our articles need to be comprehensible to someone with no knowledge whatsoever of wrestling.
What I have a problem with (when I refer to kayfabe) is not match results but presenting storylines as real with no distinction between fact and fiction - no way for the average person to know which bits are real! That is unencyclopaedic and breaches WP guidelines. It certainly is not something I would expect when I pick up Encyclopaedia Britannica.
JohnDoe0007 might find the Nakajima article boring but how many other WP:PW articles have appeared on the Wikipedia front page...?? Suriel1981 12:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have it, but I think we need some guidlines for sources:

For instance, a point for, say for instance, Joey Mercury's article: After missing a few weeks, Mercury returned wearing a protective face mask and his injury was worked into the angle, with both he and Nitro attempting to injure the Hardys in various ways for revenge. After returning later in the month Mercury continued to wrestle, both as a singles competitor on SmackDown! and with Nitro on RAW until he was released on March 26.[1]

A note after should be made about why he was released, many websites have stated the Wellness policy as a reason: [4] [5] [6] [7]. Something that possibly contributed to his release was [8], which mentions several superstars of possibly taking steroids.

I'm going to try and do an outline for a policy we could use in regard to sources in articles:

  • 1 Source
    • If it doesn't go in-depth it should be deleted unless another source is provided
    • If it goes into siginficant detail, it could be OK, but a second source might still be needed
  • 2 Sources
    • Good - the absolute minimum
    • If the 2 sources don't tell the same story for instance:
      • If source A says Mercury was released because of the policy, but source B says he was released because of family trouble, get a third source to try and back up one source. Delete the souce that lies, unless new information comes to light.
  • 3 Sources
    • Any point should have three sources unless any new info comes to light.

I've just thought this up from the top of my head - any opinions? Davnel03 12:27, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

On the Mercury thing there have been no verifiable and credible sources as to why he was released. Per wp:bio it could be considered libelous to claim he has a drug problem and that's why he was released. What you posted are considered rumor sites as for their credibility and as recently as last week were posting that he was fired because he "attacked Stephanie McMahon" because he was left off the WM card.«»bd(talk stalk) 14:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm with you on the sourcing, yeah, I think everyone is in agreement you need sourcing for real-world events...and as we already established those are hard to come by, so yeah we should decide on some type of protocol for that. However I think the bigger issue here is the suggestion of kayfabe being removed from the articles completely.
I understand that articles need to be written for non-"wrestling fans," but to remove the majority of content from the majority of pro-wrestling related articles because we don't think the average person can distiguish what is part of a fictional storyline is insulting. I think many of the articles do just fine in describing the storylines as storylines and not real life events... Such as the articles I quoted mentioning kayfabe as the reasoning behind actions. The Rena Mero article doesn't even do this (it mentions "storylines" and the like instead) and it has good article status.
If all it takes is "His true pro wrestling debut came... to make clear where the sport ends and the work begins" as you say, I think most of the articles more than do this. If you ask me, I would have to say that just that simple sentence is not enough for the type of person you're talking about to understand that that is to be translated as "now began his fake-wrestling career." Is it not much more clear to make a simple statement and label it as kayfabe with an internal link, so that someone who is interested could actually do the research himself and figure out what I would argue anyone over the age of nine knows?
The problem is, like it or not the matches and their outcomes are part of the storylines. And as I illustrated with the Star Wars example, it is insulting to any reader to have to remind them every two sentences that what they are reading about is a contrived event. What Suriel1981 states:

What I have a problem with (when I refer to kayfabe) is not match results but presenting storylines as real with no distinction between fact and fiction - no way for the average person to know which bits are real!

does not make sense to me. Part of the inherent definition of "storyline" is that none of it is real. And the parts that are real and that are worked into the storylines are usually mentioned as such in the articles, such as the situation with Matt Hardy, Amy Dumas and Edge. Anytime I've read about a relationship it has either been pre or proceeded by the words "on-screen" or "real-life" or something of the sort. This is adequate for the purpose of distiguishing fact and fiction for anyone. And on top of that, there is also usually an internal link to shoot and work and the like, at least once in the article. This is more than enough.
Actually, going back to your quote of "His true pro wrestling debut came..." being enough to satisfy that requirement, that would mean that a person with "no knowledge whatsoever of wrestling" as you say, who can't distinguish anything described in the articles as fact or fiction without being so told, would have to know and understand that by "pro wrestling" you really mean "wrestling with contrived storylines, characters, events and match outcomes." I think most people would agree that is quite a stretch.
Even if that is a stretch, (and especially, if it's not) just mentioning the person is a professional wrestler in their opening description (with an internal link to the topic of pro wrestling and its encyclopædic definition) should suffice to let this "person with no knowledge whatsoever of wrestling" know that what they are reading about is likely part of a storyline unless otherwise stated. Reading the article for Professional wrestling one should no doubt be able to read any other pro wrestling related article and be able to understand that it is not at all suggesting that Hulk Hogan legitimately overpowered the Iron Sheik or that Al Wilson really died while having sex with Dawn Marie.
Again, yes, some articles need clean up and stronger wording, but for the most part, there is really no problem with they way they present storyline events. And I again content that removing kayfabe would mean taking most pro wrestling biographical articles down to: "_____is a professional wrestler who worked for _____ promotion between the years of ____ and ___. That is all that is relevant because the rest is fiction."
--JohnDoe0007 01:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Part of the inherent definition of "storyline" is that none of it is real. You think? Okay, clearly I didn't make it obvious enough that I dislike articles mispresenting storylines as actual facts. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) has been brought up a few times already, guess I may as well do it again. Suriel1981 03:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense. Why is anyone claiming that WP:WAP means that you can't write about fiction? People need to actually read the guideline before dismissing it. — Gwalla | Talk 04:41, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:WAP? I'm not sure anyone's saying you can't write about fiction, it's mostly about how much is used and whether there's a clear divide between fact and fiction in the article. Suriel1981 04:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Previously deleted articles

here is a short list of previously deleted articles which have been deleted in the last few months. I should note, with the exception of one, all of these articles were deleted due to an expired/uncontested prod tag.

  • Bill Tabb (Black Assassin), October 2006
  • Gladiator Championship Wrestling, December 2006
  • X-Girls, December 2006
  • Vicious & Delicious, December 2006
  • Slaughterhouse (professional wrestling), December 2006
  • Old Age Outlaws, December 2006/March 2007

The articles WCW Jesse "The Body" Ventura Strongest Arm Tournament and WCW King of Cable Tournament were listed as non-notable wrestling events with two votes for delete (see afd discussion). MadMax 07:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, The Old Age Outlaws deserve and article, and maybe Vicious & Delicious. The others I am not so sure (although I don't see why a arm wrestling tournament deserves a article (although I actually do remember watching it when I was younger). TJ Spyke 10:32, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Well I'd have to say that most of them really aren't that notable IMO MPJ-DK 10:29, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
WCW King of Cable Tournament was an early (and long running) televised supercard (predating Clash of Champions) for World Championship Wrestling and also marked one of the earliest victories of Sting over Big Van Vader. It seems to be just as notable as the original King of the Ring or WWF Kuwaiti Cup Tournaments. Also, I would think an event connected with the present governor of Minnesota has some notability (as well as a short lived push for Maxx Payne).
I'm suprised Bill Tabb was deleted however as he was one of the top heels in the Florida Championship Wrestling under Oliver Humperdink during its later years. I believe he also wrestled for the National Wrestling Alliance, Jim Crockett Promotions and the American Wrestling Association during the 1980s as well. MadMax 10:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I can actually remember the Jesse Ventura Strongest Arm Tournament, geez that's scary. Despite being mildy amusing it was total WrestleCrap and really NN. The Slaughterhouse is the other one I remember (assuming it's the Kevin Sullivan 89/90 version) which did feature Sullivan, Foley and Bigelow (I think) but they didn't achieve much in WCW and not really worth an individual article Suriel1981 11:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
King of Cable did NOT pre-date the clashes, the first clash was in 88 before there even was a WCW. It was a one time tournament to build Sting into a contender for Vader's title that's it. the King of the Ring tournament only became notable when it was repeated annually. MPJ-DK 19:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, a careless mistake on my part (I'd confused the dates with Clash of Champions XXIII while looking up a record of Vader and Sting's first non-Wargames meetings). However, the tournament wasn't a one night event but which ran from November-December of 1992 concluding at the 1992 Starcade. Additionally, as you've pointed out, was used as a build up for Sting's eventual title run. Also, if I remember correctly, it was their fourth major meeting with Vader having two out three victories (if you include the WarGames) over Sting. I had also meant the King of the Ring tournament of the mid 1980s (ex. Harley Race, Haku, Jim Duggan, etc.) which itself had a lasting effect on the promotion. MadMax 21:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Out of the articles mentioned, only King of Cable could possibly be re-made. RobJ1981 21:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
King of Cable was a 'flash-in-the-pan' event because WCW weren't capable of building long-term programs. I'd completely forgotten the name of the tournament and don't think I've heard it mentioned in years. I'd vote to delete that in an AFD and I can't see that any of the others are worthy of entire articles either. Suriel1981 21:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Btw, I think this is a mirror of the original KoC tourny article. Checkiddout! [9] Suriel1981 21:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I do think that short lived tag teams such as the Old Age Outlaws would be better served being merged to single wreslers careers written in the point of view of that particular wrestler. If there were one article I would suggest to recreate, it would be Bill Tabb. MadMax 21:40, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nikita Allanov

Nikita Allanov has recently been proposed for deletion. Althugh the article is barely a stub, I think the article can be saved with some effort. MadMax 10:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] J.R.

I can seem to find any reference for J.R.(professional wrestler) online or otherwise. Someone might want to see if this should be nominated for deletion. MadMax 21:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Awww man, this article is by the same dude that created Konan Big and keeps uploading copyrighted pictures to Wikimedia Commons... Suriel1981 21:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I have prodded the article (so it should be deleted in 5 days if no one removes the PROD). TJ Spyke 22:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
I've already had to warn the creator for removing the AFD template from Konan Big twice, I reckon this article's gonna go the distance too... Suriel1981 22:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
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