Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation

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[edit] Imdanumber1's mass revert of station moves

I recently moved a number of station articles to match the names on signs. Imdanumber1 just moved them back, claiming "As per naming conventions at WP:NYCPT, we are going with the previous title." Can someone point me to where it was decided to not use what's on signs, including adding words like on "Howard Beach–JFK Airport" rather than "Howard Beach–JFK"? I would think that what's used on signs that commuters see every day would fit use common names better than what the MTA chose to put on the map. --NE2 07:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

As no one has responded, and Russbot was beginning to fix the double redirects he created, I moved them back. I suggest that we adopt the following:
Signs at ground level and on the station platforms should be used as the main source for the name of the station. Whichever one is longer, unless some of the text is significantly smaller (see Astoria Boulevard–Hoyt Avenue[1]), should be used as the article title. Other names, such as on the map, should be mentioned in the introduction to the article.
--NE2 22:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem is accuracy. If you are gonna use a picture reference, some of the station's signs are out of date and MTA is so lazy to update signs. The accurate (up to date) reference is The New York City Subway Map. It has all the current station names. As user Pacific Coast Highway said Support Your idea works best.
BTW, please don't make too too many redirect links on the articles your work because you and Imdanumber1 are making a real big mess. - BWCNY 23:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The map doesn't have "all the current station names"; it has one of several alternate names, and often one that's not normally used. For instance, with 71st–Continental Avenues–Forest Hills, the map doesn't include the "Continental" part, but the MTA itself calls the station "71-Continental Avs". --NE2 23:25, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Like I was said earlier, the subway map has the accurate up to date station name because some streets have been renamed over many years. It's the MTA's fault not to update station name signs. Do what ever you want on the articles to make it as accurate as possible, but I would go for the map as up to date (current) day reference. BWCNY 23:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The map shows the old and new names for the streets on the Flushing Line (like 33rd Street–Rawson Street), so that doesn't seem true. --NE2 00:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Another counterexample is Briarwood–Van Wyck, which the map shows as Briarwood–Van Wyck Boulevard; the boulevard became the Van Wyck Expressway in 1952. --NE2 03:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

::Support Your idea works best. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 22:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Proposal

Before the merger, we agreed to use the schedules (or the stop listing). My idea is that we return to that. Whatever was listed in the schedules, would be used here. The reason I would like us to do so is because they tend to be more consistent. (the decision to use the map was a unilateral one, no one discussed this) In fact, this is just the tip of the iceberg of recent actions made without consensus within the project. I don't want to be a crybaby, but if this is going to work, we need to listen to each other, and respect everyone's concerns, not start edit wars and bully with policies. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 18:26, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, see use common names. Signs are generally more consistent than the schedules: is it 57th Street or Midtown–57th Street? Is it Pacific Street or Atlantic Avenue–Pacific Street? --NE2 23:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Signage might also be outdated. Slattery Plaza ceases to exist. Puritan Avenue, Gaston Avenue and Playland are gone too. And you forgot about Midtown-57th Street/Seventh Avenue, it's still in the R68 rollsign. The signage is consistent, but at the same time, may not be current. At least the line maps and scheduling are updated somewhat regularly. And if we were to use "common names", it would be something on a map, since it is more widely distrubuted than some bolted overhead sings in a station. At best, I would go with a compromise system. Most inclusive name wins. And stop the policy bullying. It's getting everyone nowhere, policy is meant to keep things going smoothly, not a weapon. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 00:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Slattery Plaza is not on new-style signs, only the tiles. Similarly, "Midtown" is not on the signs. The common name would be what daily commuters see in real life, not what tourists see on the map. --NE2 00:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about switching you link. Didn't mean to do that. Woodhaven Boulevard (aside from the stairs) does not have any new style signs. It's all tiled. And the tourist thnig is a poor excuse. You might as well apply that to scheduling, line maps and the station signs too. Tourists look at those as well. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 01:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
What's wrong with the signs on the stairways? That's what someone will see when they enter the subway, not what's on the map. Signs in the station - including on the pillars - are what someone will see when riding the subway. --NE2 01:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This isn't about what someone sees. This is about what is published and what is official. Not about "I lived here for so and so and we called it blah blah blah". Maps and schedules are published and are updated in a somewhat timely fashion. Station signs are rarely updated in that fashion. Technically, we should be using theinformation on the maps/schedules, since it is attributed to a source, the MTA map/schedules. The signage relies on personal observations, or original research. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 02:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Signage is something the MTA creates and posts. By your argument, any discussions of naming conventions are original research, and that's not true. --NE2 03:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
For a simple counterexample, note that the article is at United States, not United States of America. Was this original research, deciding that the former is more common? --NE2 03:36, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
How do we know the MTA has an obligation to "update" station signs? The Van Wyck Boulevard station mosaic was largely undisturbed and "Briarwood" was just added to where the exit direction sign (whatever that's called) was previously. I remember Larry V previously mentioned there are no "official" station names. Therefore, next logical naming convention is to use the common name. Right now I can't tell if that can be derived from signage, The Map, online or published schedules, or even third party published articles. The MTA also does not use ordinal numbers for either The Map or signage. I will not take a position until I return to my computer later today, when I can read all arguments closely. Tinlinkin 12:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
They apparently do update the signs (not the tiles, which are kept for historical reasons, but the utilitarian black signs). My argument is basically that the common name is the one that you see as you're entering and riding the subway; a map is simply a representation of what exists in real life. --NE2 13:48, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The reason for the extra parts of the names of stations on the map is because they are terminals. Otherwise, the station name would just be the street or avenue. I believe these area names for terminals are fairly new, and not consistant with other statoin names. I would say just use the street, avenue, etc. bmitchelf•T•F 20:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Proposal #2

Although I support using common names for article naming, I cannot surmise how a decision regarding a common name can be determined or justified. My strongest support for an article naming convention will be for the lowest common denominator (based on Bmitchelf's suggestion):

In addition to line disambiguators (e.g. BMT Culver Line):
  • For a station with a landmark only, use that name (e.g. Woodlawn, Parkchester)
    • Neighborhoods, landmarks and city squares may be included in the article names, provided they have been used to identify the station for most of the station's history
    • Stations identified with a neighborhood, landmark, or city square should be mentioned after the street name
  • For a regular terminal station (a station where most trains wihtin a service terminate), use present-day street names without neighborhoods if a neighborhood is part of the station name, mention the neighborhood first, followed by the street name
    • Include the neighborhood if it has been part of the station name for most of the station's history (I would say the following qualify: Coney Island-Stillwell, Flushing-Main Street, 71st-Forest Hills, Far Rockaway-Mott & Rockaway Park-B. 116th; maybe Canarsie-Rockaway Pkwy. & Ditmars-Astoria)
  • For a non-terminal station or non-regular terminal station, use present-day street names.
  • Historical street names and streets that are no longer served by an exit (e.g. Myrtle-Willoughby, 85th-Forest Parkway) may or may not be included in the station name; I have no preference, but I am for inclusion when the historical name is proven to profess popular usage.

This is my proposal for a convention, which is perhaps a compromise between Pacific Coast Highway and NE2. Note that I did not address station complexes and shared stations, which still seem to be contentious. Tinlinkin 21:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that this just pushes the arguments to the individual stations: is being on the map sufficient to "identify the station"? There are also issues with stations like Main Street–Flushing and Ditmars Boulevard–Astoria, where the map puts Flushing first as part of its standard of typically putting the community first, while signs put the street first. --NE2 01:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean with your first part. If it is demonstrated within the history of a station that the community is commonly mentioned first, that should be used for the name. If the community is mentioned second, that should be used. I am now realizing this determination needs reliable sources, therefore, it would be harder to demonstrate which order is more popular in usage. (I believe Flushing Main Street is more common than Main Street Flushing and 71st-Continental Avenues-Forest Hills more than Forest Hills-71st-Continental Avenues, but then again, that's original research, hmm....) Tinlinkin 18:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll now say the neighborhood for a terminal station should be mentioned, and should be mentioned first. The MTA may want to emphasize neighborhoods for terminal stations for whatever reason (rollsigns, preference to easily identify terminals of a service by its neighborhood than the street, etc.), so I can say that is reasonable for a convention. This breaks conformity with street names first when identifying stations. The historical streets/removed exits issue is still unresolved.Tinlinkin 18:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
That comment about rollsigns only seems to be true sometimes:
Without the community first: [2] [3] (one for Ditmars Boulevard–Astoria) [4]
With the community first: [5] [6] [7]
Is there a list somewhere of current rollsign and electronic display readings? --NE2 01:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Here are the side readings for Division A and B terminals:
* Current roll signs for R68/A: [8]
* Current (1980's) signs for R62A: [9]
* R40-42 rollsigns: [10]
* OUTDATED R44/46 electronic readings signs: [11]
***CAUTION: that link to the rollsigns is full of spam advertisement*** -- BWCNY 05:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I'll start a page at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/station names to deal with the thorny cases. --NE2 08:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I did not mean the comment about rollsigns to be an absolute generalization about station names. I meant that communities are indicated on rollsigns for a reason. Tinlinkin 13:17, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Related discussions

I have started this section to list related discussions that may be of relevance. --A bit iffy 07:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't know how that is relevant here. The proposal there is about using "(railway station)", "railway station", "station", etc. as a disambiguator. In this WikiProject, the discussion is about what is the official name of a New York City Subway station, or barring that, how station names should be established. Tinlinkin 12:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the main proposal currently being discussed is about parentheses, but there have been long-running arguments such as on Talk:Birmingham New Street Station about what the "true" name of a station is, similar to the discussions here. --A bit iffy 05:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Here are past discussions in this WikiProject about the naming of New York City Subway station articles, including discussions about station complexes (I may have missed some):

I do not monitor all NYCS class articles, so discussions from those articles should be added here. Tinlinkin 13:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources for a naming convention?

The big question is: what is the criteria and the sources are we deciding on for coming up with a naming convention? Should we list proposed individual criteria and sources here and should we vote on which ones are the best ones to use? Tinlinkin 14:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

List an individual criteria or source and then comment on the validity of each below each bullet.

[edit] Individual criteria

Based on the format <Station Name> (<Division Name> <Line Name>):

  1. Derive station name from names used on the MTA subway map
  2. Derive station name from station signs
  3. Derive station name from schedules (stop listing)
  4. Determine station name from an evaluation of popular usage (common names)
  5. Determine station name from a combination of the above
  6. Use (division line) as the disambiguator
    This is needed for disambiguation on those stations with just a street name (which is the majority), but it might not be necessary on stations with unique names (like Brooklyn Bridge–City Hall). --NE2 14:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  7. Use (New York City Subway) as the disambiguator
  8. Do (or do not) add a disambiguator to unique station names
  9. Use ordinal numbers (or cardinal numbers) with numbered streets
    To be really picky about The Map and black & white signs, those use cardinal numbers, while we have used ordinal numbers. I would like to continue to use ordinal numbers as that is more natural when describing street names. Tinlinkin 15:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  10. Spell out numbers from 1-10
    Again being rather picky. --NE2 15:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    I'd like to consider all possibilities now rather than to revisit this again and again. Tinlinkin 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Individual sources

This section is for commenting on the issues and validity of the sources used in determining a station name, as opposed to the above section, which asks if the source should determine the station name.

  1. name as shown on The Map
  2. name as shown on schedules
  3. station signs
    Station names set in mosaic may relect historical names and not the name used today or common usage. Tinlinkin 15:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    On the other hand, station names on the standard white-on-black signs do get updated; the NYCTA removed "Rawson Street", "Lowery Street", and "Bliss Street" from station signs when they removed those old names from the map, and restored them when they restored the names to the map. --NE2 15:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  4. rollsigns
    Rollsigns are probably the most outdated source listed here. --NE2 14:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  5. other MTA sources
  6. third-party sources
Discussion about MTA "paper sources" (map and schedules) vs. station signs and newspaper usage
Harlem–148th Street (map/schedule name) is shown as 148th Street–Lenox Terminal on signs. The map name is little-used ([12] [13] [14] [15]). "Lenox Terminal" is also not used too much, but more than "Harlem" ([16] [17] [18]) - and even the MTA sometimes uses it ([19]). --NE2 16:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues/exceptions

  1. Station complexes
    No matter what name we use, we should bold the name for the station on each specific line in that section of the article. --NE2 14:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
  2. Terminal stations
    An illustrative case is Gravesend–86th Street. When the BMT Sea Beach Line was cut back on November 5, 2001, during Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue reconstruction, the "Gravesend" was added to the map (here's the May 2003 version). It's now gone from the map, since the Sea Beach Line was reopened to Coney Island on May 29, 2005. It's never been on signs (March 16, 2005 photo), and does not seem to have been in common use ([20] [21] [22]). (Does anyone know about rollsigns, which probably had to be specially patched for the closure?) But it's still on the line information and timetable. This shows that the timetable can be outdated. --NE2 15:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
    Don't forget the automated announcements too. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 19:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
  1. Street names with landmarks, historical street names and closed exits
  2. Other issues

[edit] Further discussion

I guess I finally have time to discuss the naming issue. So, I myself object to using station signage. I don't like the ideas of rollsigns because those are probably just as worse as station signage. So that would make me turn to a piece of information that is citable, verifiable and attributed to a reliable source and that is the MTA's published map/schedules. I prefer using these pieces of info because they are the most updated piece of MTA's information as service changes and station closures warrant. There are a lot of situations where one name is better than the other:

1. The map says Grand Army Plaza, the schedules for the 2, 3 and 4 includes Prospect Park as the suffix. I'd include it because the map is really tight on space on some areas.

2. The map says Woodside-61st Street, the 7 schedule says 61st Street-Woodside. I'd agree with the map because the Woodside is somewhat more important than 61st Street, as the neighborhood is more important than the street.

3. The map uses Dyckman Street, the A schedule uses Dyckman Street (200th Street). I'd use Dyckman Street only because they don't match the form of most other articles. In addition, the extra parentheses look awkward in the article titles.

4. The map uses High Street, A and C schedules uses High Street-Brooklyn Bridge. I'd go with High Street Brooklyn Bridge as per the same reasons of no. 1.

5. The map uses 23rd Street-Ely Avenue, so do the V schedules, but the E says 23rd Street (Ely Avenue). Although I'm against using dead street names, this case breaks the tie.

These are just a few cases, and there are many more that follow these in their footsteps. But what's important is that if we want to keep our information consistent and most accurate, such as accessibility, closings and name changes, then these are the places to go to. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 04:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, how can schedules be outdated if they are updated consistently? That makes no sense. Whatever we do, lets not try to make up our own convention for their names because that's original research. And like you said NE2, station signage and rollsigns cannot count as reliable sources because someone in the future will not be able to go back and verify your observations.

However, I do have an idea:

For station naming, we should list what is more important to least in the title. What I mean by that is if one source lists Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College, and another lists Flatbush Avenue-Brooklyn College, go with Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue because the building is probably more important than the street itself. Neighborhoods are more important than buildings/parks/landmarks, and streets are at the bottom of the chain. If possible, try to list streets in alpha-order, if the MTA's naming convention doesn't conflict. By that I mean if there is more than one choice. I'll tell you more when I have time. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think our reliable source and original research policies apply to choosing a common name, as long as we can show that that name is in fact used. Please explain why the schedules still show Gravesend–86th Street when that's no longer the terminal, and the "Gravesend" has been removed from the map. --NE2 18:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
That's a question directed to the MTA's printers. Not to a user. Pacific Coast Highway {talk • contribs} 19:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
A lot of stations have neighborhood monikers in them and are not terminals. So? --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 20:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
And some of those neighborhoods are part of the name; this one does not appear to be. --NE2 21:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
If you're going to choose a source that includes that name, when it is certainly not part of the station's common name, you need to justify that choice, not push it onto the MTA. --NE2 21:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
But the MTA is the first place to turn to. And it has its published sources to prove it. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 21:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Even if one accepts that the only sources for determining the name are the MTA, since when does that mean that we can only use their schedules, and not other MTA sources like the map and signs? --NE2 22:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I never said that we couldn't use the map. But I I frown upon it on most cases because of space issues. There a lot of cases where the map has disadvantages. Grand Armp Plaza is one. I stated this earlier. And the 110th Street stations as well. Hoyt Street is another. And High Street. Signs are bad as well because they are the most outdated piece of literature. Like you said to GK tramrunner, someone in the future will not be able to go back and verify your observations if someone picks station signage as the convention. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Why do you say signs are outdated? The ones on the Flushing Line were replaced twice when the old street names were removed station names and later restored. As for the verifiability, we're not saying "the signs say foo"; we're using them to choose a name. As long as another source uses this name, it's not a problem. This sort of thing is done all the time when choosing common names. --NE2 22:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Station signs do not count as a reliable source. A reliable source would be a piece of published information, like the map, timetables, etc. If they don't conflict with each other, then that's okay. Otherwise, not okay. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 23:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Again, we're not stating the fact that the signs say "Foo"; we're working "behind the scenes" to decide on an article name. --NE2 00:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
You may be confusing reliable sources with first and secondary sources. Anything the MTA publishes (maps, timetables AND signs) are primary sources. Photographs of signs are secondary sources. Anybody can document a transit system's signage. Both first and secondary sources are acceptable reliable sources. Whether and how they contradict each other is another matter. Tinlinkin 00:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

What was the decision for using en dashes (I think) based on again? WP:NC#Special characters states that those kinds of dashes should be avoided in article names; instead use simple hyphens. Tinlinkin 00:17, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Larry began moving articles to including en dashes because they were semantically correct. I don't know what he means by that, so we should ask him. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
The hyphen is not the proper punctuation mark to use in this case, strictly speaking. But do what you'd like with the titles; I've become rather indifferent regarding the matter. Larry V (talk | e-mail) 20:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

Is there any objection to applying MiszaBot here to automatically archive? --NE2 03:49, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no objection. 10 or 14 days should be set for the archival. Only one question: should the next archive number be 5 or 1? Tinlinkin 19:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
That next archive that I did now is #5. BWCNY 04:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I did the archive, that is really 1 big file to move. BWCNY 04:41, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Merging/Deletion of Category:Streets in New York City

Just thought I'd drop by to make you aware of a move by a user who has categorized himself as a 'Mergist Wikipedian' to delete 'Category:Streets in New York City', so that it may be ultimately merged into a single 'Streets and Squares' category. I've also let the Wikiproject New York know. If you wish to express an opinion, the place to do it is here. --Keefer4 | Talk 01:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NYCT and MTA bus rosters, where are they?

As of today, the only page left of it is Bus depots of the New York City Transit Authority. But before, as I remember there were full rosters of each depot. Where are those rosters gone? please GK tramrunner 02:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

No reliable attributable sources have been found for the information. --NE2 03:06, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
No reliable attributable sources for what, for bus service numbers numbers?

As it always were for me, the street is the source. Just look what's written on buses. Especially in Brooklyn. ALl of them have Depot Badges. GK tramrunner 15:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

That's original research: someone in the future will not be able to go back and verify your observations. --NE2 15:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subway station naming list page

I have listed all the stations for which there might be disagreement on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/station names. Note that listing here does not mean that I or anyone else objects to using the name on the map or schedules. Please help fill in names from signs, schedules, and other official and third-party sources. Thank you. --NE2 11:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm proposing a review of all "varieties" of station names. I think I could use Larry's category for this. It doesn't have to be all at once, but if the map's name and schedules' names conflict with each other, I'll post them on the article's talk page and hold a discussion. It's not feasible to use one blanket system for naming all 470+ stations. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 23:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
If you read my comment above, I do not have all station articles in my watchlist. The discussion should be in a centralized area. The page created by NE2 seems to be a good place to start. Tinlinkin 00:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reassessment of article

Someone tagged the Fung Wah Bus Transportation Inc. article in the talk page with a Start-class assessment and having a lack of references last month. The article has improved immensely since it was tagged, and now includes the necessary citations. How do I go about getting this article reassessed? —Umofomia 01:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the unreferenced parameter (which you could have done yourself). I would leave it up to other editors if they want to change the rating, but to me it doesn't seem to be elaborated enough to be granted a B-rating. Tinlinkin 02:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay thanks. I didn't know whether it had to be someone on the project that should remove the parameter. What are the criteria for the ratings? Currently, the link in the template,Wikipedia:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Assessment, does not point to an existing article. —Umofomia 03:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
The assessment scale for articles is standard for articles of any subject matter on Wikipedia. I used Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains/Assessment#Quality scale (a parent of this project) to reference the grading scheme. There is a general explanation at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment. However, we in our WikiProject should set up our own page about article assessment (which would likely be much the same as others at any rate). Tinlinkin 03:26, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 42nd Street–Fifth Avenue–Bryant Park (New York City Subway)

There was a discussion on Talk:42nd Street–Fifth Avenue–Bryant Park (New York City Subway) a while ago in which we determined that there is essentially no name for the "station complex" and that it is really two stations joined by a long passageway. Recently I split it, sparking a revert war with Imdanumber1, who claims there's no consensus. --NE2 21:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I've went back and forth on the talk page for the past two months. I never saw a unanimous decision to split it. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 22:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
You don't need a big bold word stating what you wish to be done. We both shared what we knew about it, which indicated that it was clearly not one station with one name. --NE2 22:45, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Originally they were separate articles; I don't recall there ever being consensus to combine them. Larry V (talk | e-mail) 20:23, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eastern Parkway stations east of Utica Avenue.

Recently, NE2 (no surprise) moved all articles based on the Eastern Parkway Line east of Utica Avenue to IRT New Lots Line, e.g. New Lots Avenue (IRT New Lots Line). This doesn't make sense, as I don't know any source that says these stations are a part of the New Lots Line. What is the proper line moniker? --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 22:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

We already discussed this: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation/Archive 5#IRT Eastern Parkway Line. IRT Eastern Parkway Line and New Lots Line cites sources. I in fact can find no sources for those stations being on the Eastern Parkway Line. --NE2 22:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Um...okay. --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of problems here. Any of them could swing this one way or the other.
  • The only MTA literature I've seen that even mentions the line east of Utica says "New Lots".
  • There is no way to check emergency exit signs, since the line becomes elevated between Utica and Sutter Avenue.
  • The two segments are physically continuous, but the express Eastern Parkway tracks dead-end east of Utica, and only the local tracks continue to New Lots a la BMT Fourth Avenue south of 59th Street.
  • The two lines are continuously chained as IRT E (for Eastern Parkway?) from Borough Hall through New Lots.
Larry V (talk | e-mail) 20:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What to do with {{NYCS time}}

Since {{NYCS}} is the new home for all of the service templates and {{NYCS time}}, I no longer find {{NYCS time}} necessary, and there is no chance that it would be updated in the future. I substituted {{NYCS time}} on the first 30+ line templates, but NE2 systematically reverted these changes, saying that List of New York City Subway services#Time periods might be moved to the future. I don't see this happening anytime soon. Does anyone else see this happening anytime soon?

I also added non-breaking spaces (&nbsp;) in the line templates and bullets such as: • so as to separate the services and the time period details some may have and to keep the time period details in same line as the service it refers to, which he removed too. What should be done? Also, should the services be in bold in the service tables or not? I agree that the services shouldn't be in bold in the article body, except for cases where as in the 1 train article, if it refers to itself as it does, I guess it could be bolded. Thoughts? --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Template:NYCS time is a good example of what we use templates for: consistent formatting that may need to be changed. --NE2 20:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion on requested move.

Go to Talk:Van Cortlandt Park–242nd Street (IRT Broadway–Seventh Avenue Line). --Imdanumber1 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

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