Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mythology

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[edit] Greek mythology

Greek mythology is up for a featured article review. Detailed concerns may be found here. Please leave your comments and help us address and maintain this article's featured quality. Sandy (Talk) 17:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question regarding project scope and overlap

I hope that no one reacts negatively to this question. However, I believe that right now the title of this project may, to a small degree, be somewhat self-defeating. To the best of my understanding, the word "mythology" is functionally used, in everyday conversation, to describe almost exclusively those stories related to belief systems which are currently discredited. This is somewhat off-putting to those who might still abide by these belief systems. I know that Greek mythology is generally one of the most discredited of the old belief systems. Having said that, I remember having heard on the BBC's "Reporting Religion" show that there are still worshippers of the old Greek gods active in Athens. Some of the current practicioners of Wicca also hold to some of the stories of old Greek mythology. To change the definition of "mythology" to include myths of all religions would be similarly complicated. I think we all can imagine the uproar if anyone were to describe the Nativity of Jesus as "mythology", although, by the standard popular definition of "unproven story regarding divine and/or semi-divine beings", it qualifies as such.
I wonder if it might be possible to try to fuse this project with the equally small Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion. Both deal with the same basic subject area, although one emphasizes the stories of a religion while the other does not. However, both deal pretty much with the same articles. Also, it would eliminate the potential conflict which could arise if there were a dispute regarding, for instance, some stories from Greek mythology and Neopaganism WikiProject or Religion WikiProject. I wonder what the members of this project think of the idea. I think either a new project could be created with a new name, or somehow possibly both projects agree to using one of the existing names. In any event, I would welcome all responses, positive or negative. Badbilltucker 14:09, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Badbull, I personally see a discernable difference between religion and mythology. One is the beleif system or guiding theology, the other is a story about. in some cases a myth might even be independent of religion, or secular. This is my impression when writing others may also speak. For example I clearly see in my mind one article about Christianity a separate about the story of Christmas, a separate about Santa or Saint Nicholas. Goldenrowley 19:52, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not disagree with you, Goldenrowley. In fact (I think), I believe that I indicated above that I perceive the difference. And I applaud you for your recent work in updating the project. I would however ask, as the semi-official recent reviver of the WikiProject Religion, if you think that the two projects could agree upon a pair of definitions of the terms "mythology" and "religion" which would make it clear to any non-member or prospective member the specific scope of each project, to prevent the possibility of someone joining the wrong project. Personally, something like the following seem at least functional definitions:


Mythology - stories regarding religious entities (gods, culture heroes, etc.) and/or stories regarding history which often involve what are today perceived as possibly fantastic accounts of such history.
Religion - the practices, rituals, and other cultural aspects of a group of people and/or a specific culture, based on their belief in their own specific mythological stories.

I ask this, again, so that the two projects can effectively try to deal with matters within their own scope, with some certainty that there will not arise "turf wars" about specific articles. I do acknowledge that there is a very real likelihood that both projects, at least in some instances, will deal with the same specific article, although hopefully different parts of the article, unless, of course, members of one group simply have more or better information than the other. In such instances, of course, I would hope that arrangements could be worked out. I want to make it clear that I do not specifically envision such a possibility necessarily arising, but simply want to have a framework in place in the unfortunate and regrettable event that it arises anyway. Badbilltucker 21:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay yes you did note that. Here are my replies:
SCOPE: This group has a scope listed on their "To Do" list and a long list of categories and stubs listed on the category page to chose from.
DEFINITION: I beleive this group uses the following mythology definition that is posted on the top of the main Mythology article as of 12/4/06: Goldenrowley 04:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The word mythology (Greek: μυθολογία, from μυθος mythos, a story or legend, and λογος logos, an account or speech) literally means the (oral) retelling of myths – stories that a particular culture believes to be true and that use supernatural events or characters to explain the nature of the universe and humanity. In modern usage, mythology is either the body of myths from a particular culture or religion (as in Greek mythology, Egyptian mythology or Norse mythology) or the branch of knowledge dealing with the collection, study and interpretation of myths. In common usage, myth means a falsehood — a story which many believe to be based on fact but which is not true. However, the field of mythology does not use this definition.

I reviewed the religion page scope and there is very little if no overlap. At this point there is lots to do and very little cooks in the kitchen (i.e. new myth stubs keep poring in, like over 300 Celtic stubs) so would *myself* cheerfully decline to "merge" with religion. Goldenrowley 04:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
No objections. However, if you could add a statement to the effect of your specific definition of the word on the project page, I will do the same on the religion project page. And, because I got the distinct impression (rightly or wrongly) that you might harbor some feelings that I was trying to "take over" or eliminate this project, I hope that you don't mind ,y (hopefully) indicating my lack of ill will by adding this project to the list of new project on the Wikipedia:Community portal. With any luck, it might get you a few more members. And, although I can't know if this will happen, if the religion project ever gets a notice regarding a FARC or similar which seems to me to possibly be more appropriate to this group, I might copy the post to this talk page. Good luck with the project. Badbilltucker 17:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Surely I did already but I will check my work! I can't speak for everyone I am trying to cheerlead and rejuvinate this project with the new page design and updates. We are probablby a sister/brother project to religion. NO hard feelings whatsover the only reason I turned down on religion is we might have our hands full here, I cannot possibly imagine adding religion to the list of concerns to think about... maybe others are braver than I or have a doctorate in theology and will forge into religion sometimes. Goldenrowley 18:12, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] how do I join?

Just as the title says, how do I join? I woul like to help, but I have no idea how to get any of the templates or find the participants page... Reponding on my talk page would be nice too. Thanks and cheers! —¡Randfan! 16:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the project page this weekend. To become a member you can simply do so here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Mythology/Participants - and here's a user page logo for members:
This user is a member of the WikiProject Mythology

Goldenrowley 19:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Completed

I cleaned up the project page this weekend, hopefully to everyone's liking, it was #1 on the "to do" list on both the project page and this talk page. I notice that we do NOT need 2 "to do" lists, the one on the main page should be sufficient.So the duplicate on this page can be removed top of this page. Goldenrowley 19:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word choice: Mythological vs. Mythical

"mythical or mythological: In its general sense, mythical relates to anything imaginary, while both mythical and mythological refer to mythology, and especially to the myths of classical times: What happened to that mythical fortune of his? Her favourite mythological character in Greek legend was Ganymede. © From the Hutchinson Encyclopaedia. Helicon Publishing LTD 2006. All rights reserved'"

Having found the above, 2 things suggested: (1) The words are being used interchangeably in many articles, cleanup when see the confusion on a case by case basis (2) I think we should have the category powers change the word mythical to mythological on the following categories. This would make them consistent and alphabatize with all other mythological subcatergories:
  • [+] Mythical objects -->proposed change to mythological objects
  • [+] Mythical peoples -->proposed change to mythological peoples
  • [+] Mythical places -->proposed change to mythological places
  • [+] Mythical substances -->proposed change to mythological medical substances

I am open to discussion? Goldenrowley 20:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC) ...Well I began the rename process at: [[1]] Goldenrowley 03:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 18:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] accessibility

couldn't the contents of the four tabs be on a single page? It's not all that much material, and I find it annoying to be forced to navigate between fragmented tidbits. A simple ToC makes things readily avaiable too. dab (𒁳) 10:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

are you a good page design dab? I dont know about others but personally would not mind if good designing put some of the tabs together... as long as you keep the archives and the templates a separate tab as the templates could get overwhelming on page 1 if we make more of them. Perhaps one could run the "category" list down the right hand side in a 2nd column. Goldenrowley 22:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion

The group indicated above was recently revitalized for, among other things, the purpose of working on those articles whose content is such that the article does not fall within the scope of any particular denomination. To most effectively do this, however, we would benefit greatly if there were at least one member from this Project working on those articles. On that basis, I would encourage and welcome any member of this Project willing to work on those articles to join the Religion WikiProject. Thank you. Badbilltucker 22:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok I've could not help doing a little side work on religious topics while tidying up mythology, its not exactly accurate to say we only touch "secular" or "non denominational mythology by the way... so I'll join the religious group right now. Goldenrowley 02:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Articles tagged as needing expert attention

Several articles have been tagged as requiring expert attention from Mythology experts. These articles are contained in the Category:Pages needing expert attention from Mythology experts. Any such attention in improving these pages would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Badbilltucker 02:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a good idea to call attention to that area. Also I noted your call the other day for a cross joiner at the religion project... I feel pretty spread out on four Wikiprojects right now, does anyone else have time on your hands to be on both projects, mythology and religion? Goldenrowley 02:18, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Carbuncle (mythology) is in need of sourcing

The article mentioned above was tagged for deletion on the basis of being nonverifiable. I have removed the tag, as the article does agree with a lot of general legends I do know, even though I don't know of this particular legend. Any help in providing a source for this article would be greatly appreciated. Badbilltucker 23:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It does not sound like a spanish word, may take some searching with a Spanish dictionary.... Goldenrowley 23:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prometheus and Jesus

I've read of comparisons between the myth of Prometheus and Jesus, but the article on Prometheus doesn't mention any such similarity. Both are said to have "brought the divine light" to the people and both were punished harshly for this. If anyone is familiar with comparative religion or mythology and has some references to indicate this, can you please help out? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You'd probably want to look at the Life-death-rebirth deity page. There are a number of similar deities who fall in the same general category, as indicated on that page. John Carter 19:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparative Mythology/Religion

New member here, hello to all. Will be looking in future at the possibility of bringing comparisons/contrasts between different mythological/religious characters/events. Not sure yet how this will work within the confines of an encyclopaedic entry but could be interesting. I am however currently somewhat preoccupied with contributing articles/cleanups to the Wrestling Media Wikiproject. Suriel1981 21:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Welcome Suriel981. Your topic of interest sounds very interesting I look forward to reading, see also categories named mythemes and mythological archetypes where you will find existing comparitive articles. Which brings up a question, what is the big difference between a mytheme and an archetype? Are they more or less overlapping? If so, should we merge those two categories? Goldenrowley 07:15, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Artificial Mythology

Proposed category merge was suggested: "artificial mythology" proposed merge into "mythopoeia" as covering the very same topic. Here is the proposal if anyone wants to cast a vote: [2] Goldenrowley 04:21, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mother Nature needs help

Hi all, it looks like the article on Mother Nature could use some work, if anyone is interested. I just put a cleanup tag on it for a variety of reasons; please see the talk page for details. Mother Nature, in all of her names and forms, is a pretty important and central figure in mythology all over the world. I'm surprised that her article is so lacking... but hopefully there are some people willing to take the time to work on it! Thanks, romarin [talk ] 01:40, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Academic" myth

I've edited WP a while and have always wanted to do mythology but I've been extremely intimidated. If you read all this, you'll find why and why I would be so committed. In all my experience, it seems the world of mythological study can be divided into two areas which have nothing but my imaginary names: folk mythology and academic myth. So far WP almost exclusively talks about folk mythology which is this: an old, non-historic story with supernatural characters and events that often explain the origins of parts of nature. However, an "academic" myth is this: a story that may or may not be historical that communicates profound, universal truths via the experience of listening/seeing. Or, as Campbell put it, "Myth is the secret opening through which the inexhaustible energies of the cosmos pour into human manifestation." The myths themselves are basically the same, but the way they're studied is totally different. Maybe this would help:

Folk Academic
Particulars Generalities
Names, locations Archetypes
Plot Teachings
Literal Figurative
Groups myths according to religion/culture Groups myths according teaching across religions
From ancient writers Created in all times
Entertaining Profound
Understood by all Understood by academics & the religious

WP has a lot of the first and very little of the second. As I've read thru myth articles, I've noticed several places where the academic perspective has come out, only to be misunderstood by others and thus divided, given multiple names, or attempts of deletion: Religion and mythology, Myth and ritual, Mythopoeic literature, Mythopoiesis, Mytheme and Mythos.

Here's why I've explained all that. I want to introduce the concepts which academic mythology studies so that someone can find them if they're looking. Namely, to give a single, concise definition of the word "myth" (oddly there is none at the moment) and comprehensive organization to the individual articles. But instead of just barging in, I wanted to find what the consensus of others is and has been past. So if there's something major anyone objects to that I should know, please tell me. --Ephilei 00:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I applaud you. It is on the Myth project "to do" list to elevate myth articles from being fun/curious to sacred and symbolic. It takes pateince and work. The main mythology page has many definitions formyth some in the sacred category. All you need are references. References help to keep things from being deleted and protected. Why not do an article called academic myth with this table, and quote your sources? Goldenrowley 04:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your support! I've very excited and glad you seem to understand what I'm trying to say. Well, "academic myth" is only a term I personally coined, I've never seen it elsewhere, so I don't want to give the false impression that an academic myth is something special or even different from myths in general. Every myth is academic and every myth is sacred. I've created User:Ephilei/Mythology as a possible revamp of the current Mythology.
Well I just expanded the List of mythology books, for finding some sourcing: You are somewhat bringing in the Jungian mythology concepts, but on the naming of myth types, be careful not to introduce original research (WP:NOR). I tried to figure out an "academic" meaning, the other day, and could not find it but I am sure there is one. I'd not use the word folklore against academic. Maybe some of the sources will present the names of myth types. Goldenrowley 04:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Not meaning to complicate matters still further, but I think I will anyway. Several people have already said ideologies are virtual equivalents to religions, and that their precepts the equivalents to mythologies. Maybe a group dealing with mythology in an academic sense in a broader sense, like maybe a new Wikipedia:WikiProject Ideologies, which could incorporate material from other disciplines, might be the best way to go? I only say that because I think the politics project is probably no better at dealing with ideological matters than we necessarily are with "anthropological" mythology. John Carter 14:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Admittedly adding ideology would boggle my mind, unless it is a related category its very broad and can go into all the political and such other ideologies known in the world. Mythology is in the cosmology ideologies, but not equivalent to all ideologies. I think calling "idealogy" equivalent to religion misses the sacred element of mythology. Goldenrowley 04:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Any luck getting a highly respectable, verified "academic" definition? Goldenrowley 23:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Giant animal

There was a merge that I felt was concluded too hastily and for the wrong reasons, so I undid the redirect. Now they want to open a discussion, and I feel that this is of interest to the mythology community since most of the content that can't be added to Megafauna (the article it had gotten redirected to) from Giant animal was cryptozoology-related or mytholology-related. Thanks, and I hope to see your input. Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 02:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok I there proposed to rearrange the materials as follows: "giant animal (mythology)" and "giant animal (fiction)" -- all listed on the existing disambiguation page "giants". Thanks for asking. Goldenrowley 23:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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