Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Classical warfare task force

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[edit] Immediate Goals/Projects

Apart from the ongoing to-do list, perhaps we should have an overall goal, or marker?

I'd advance the idea of getting the Roman Legion, Roman Navy, and Military history of ancient Rome up to FA status. They're sort of the "core" of the whole Roman military history, after all. Thoughts anyone? - Vedexent

I'd wait for a few more people to join before deciding on concrete goals (see also the discussion on the main project talk page about whether we want to lump Greece into this task force or not). Aside from that, Military history of ancient Rome would probably be an excellent article to work on, as would the Punic Wars (← probably the Roman conflict most well-known to the layman). You might want to look at nominating some suitable articles for the project collaboration as well. —Kirill Lokshin 21:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone looked at the Hannibal article? It seems pretty close to FA status and is a very good Classical warfare related article. --Darkfred Talk to me 21:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I currently work on Military history of ancient Rome and need some feedback. Wandalstouring 13:15, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Articles to Start With?

Just some ideas about what might possibly be goals or even "collaberation of the fortnight" for the task force. Comments?

Vedexent 01:20, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How to Footnote with Etexts?

Here's a tricky question. How do you footnote/reference quotes from an electronic text? Normally, you'd give author, work, publishing information, and page number. But with etexts, there are no page numbers. With the Project Gutenburg texts, it might be possible to give line numbers, I guess. Thoughts anyone? - Vedexent 07:09, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Line number, maybe? My copy of the CMS doesn't seem to have anything meaningful on this point. —Kirill Lokshin 07:13, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that's probably the best approach. I'd put a note at the top of the footnots section explaining that, but that's the most accurate approach I can think of. - Vedexent 07:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Second Punic War

There's been a request to merge some information from Hannibal to Second Punic War, and I figured the people who visit this talk page would probably want to weigh in . . . UnDeadGoat 06:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I like the fact that Hannibal stands on its own as both a biographical and a war narrative. I worry that moving or synopsizing any substantial portions for Second Punic War will lose the quality of this writing. As someone who reads historical articles mostly for the stories I may be in the minority. What I mean to say is that anything we do needs to be done right or not at all. Regards --Darkfred Talk to me 22:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
I strongly support keeping Hanibal as an independant article. His influence has reached far beyond a single war and is an important military figure. Merging these two would be akin to mergin Erwin Rommel to World war 2.Dryzen 17:00, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The proposal isn't to merge Hannibal into the Second Punic war. The proposal is to move a lot of the detail about the Second Punic War in Hannibal to the Second Punic war article, and keeping a summary of the Second Punic war information in Hannibal, with a main template link to the war. That is just standard wikipedia practice. - Vedexent 17:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Would probably be worthwhile, too, given that Hannibal is too long, and Second Punic War is too short. Kirill Lokshin 17:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
That sounds much better. Some call it Hannibal's War and seems like the writers of the article took this to heart. I do agree that the information would be more at home in the Second Punic War. My fault in not researching the present request. Dryzen 19:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with merging, I just want to point out that duplication of information is not inherantly bad. :) Hanibal doesn't need eviserated it needs tightened. Second punic war on the other hand needs as much info as it can get. --Darkfred Talk to me 22:45, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Ancient Near East warfare taskforce

Anybody interested in Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Ancient Near East warfare task force? I need some more members to make it possible. See the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Ancient Near East taskforce? Neddyseagoon 15:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can I Get Some Opinions?

Was wondering if anyone would like to comment on my comment at the bottom of the talk page of Military history of ancient Rome. The whole article wants to make me throw-up. --Laserbeamcrossfire 07:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] online sources

homepage of professor John Nicols offers many articles on the classical history, especially military and provides useful pictures. This subdivision is a good source concerning classical Greece.

[edit] Peer reviews

[edit] Samian War, Pericles, Alcibiades

I've added the infobox and the wiki-project template in the Samian War, an article I first created. But I've not done the rating.
I also intend to ask for a peer-review by the members of the project for Pericles. It was previously unsuccessfully nominated for FA and GA. But a lot of work is done by me and other Wikipedians. A general peer-review was asked by anoter User, but the response of the Wikipedians was not so warm. This general peer-review is still under way: Wikipedia:Peer review/Pericles. I expect for your support in both peer-reviews, because I strongly believe that this article deserves your attention.
I also intend to ask for a peer-review by the members of the project for Alcibiades. But I'm not sure if the article is yet ready.--Yannismarou 07:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer Review Request

I've just posted a peer review request for Third Servile War here. Any feedback is greatly appeciated :) - Vedexent 16:39, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Caesar's invasions of Britain

There's a new peer review request for Caesar's invasions of Britain that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 22:43, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Roman military

There's a new peer review request for Roman military that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 18:04, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Battle of Gythium

There's a new peer review request for Battle of Gythium that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 13:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Roman-Spartan War

There's a new peer review request for Roman-Spartan War that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 04:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First Peloponnesian War

I created an article about the First Peloponnesian War and I added the Wiki-project box, but I haven't done the rating.--Yannismarou 09:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The same with Second Sacred War.--Yannismarou 10:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Punic wars

I have been researching for some time and will rework the articles on the Punic wars. I welcome any reviewer. Especially for the new structure of the Second Punic War (see talkpage). Wandalstouring 19:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Separation of the rebels in the Third Servile War?

In including inline footnotes for the article Third Servile War, I ran across a bit of problem: in several popular descriptions of the war on the web, there is a claim that the slaves eventually divided, one faction under Crixus wishing to stay in southern Italy and continue to plunder the countryside, and one faction under Spartacus who were intent of fleeing north into Cisalpine Gaul and escape.

The problem is that I cannot find this claim in the sources. There is nothing in the sources to contradict this, and it is possible to speculate that this might have happened as:

  1. The slaves apparently spent the winter in two different geographical locations: the area around Vesuvius, and on the southern coast of Italy - making it appear as if there were two groups.
  2. Crixus and about 30,000 were later defeated by one of the consular armies while separated from Spartacus' group.
  3. Plutarch mentions that some of the slaves wished to stay and plunder Italy rather than escape over the Alps.

But nowhere can I find a reference that specifically says something like "Crixus and his followers split off the main group because they wanted to stay and plunder Italy, and went to winter in Thurii".

Does anyone know where this came from? Is this a possible interpretation of the histories that has just got repeated until it has become "popular fact"? - Vedexent 00:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It sounds logical. 120,000 are hard to feed in one camp. I will check it today. Wandalstouring 05:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks :) I don't doubt that they spread out - although at that point in the war there were "only" 70,000 or so according to Appian. What I'm wondering about is the claim that the rebelling slaves split into two factions, with two different goals. The current article reads that way. - Vedexent 06:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Didn't find a book today, will try tomorrow. Wandalstouring 16:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] restructuring Punic names

I have copied some pages from the Dictionnaire de la Civilisation Phénicien et Punique about the various names and connections we know about the Punics. Are there any objections if I translate and modify these and give links to all the seperate persons (up to 21 people per name): Adherbal, Bomilcar, Carthalo, Hamilcar, Hannibal, Hasdrubal, Himilco/n, Mago/n, etc. Instead of the usual disambiguation pages or articles on single persons. Wandalstouring 17:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any reason why that would be a problem. Kirill Lokshin 17:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Wait, now I'm confused. How would these be different from regular sets of articles with a disambiguation page? Are you planning to create a list? Or am I completely misunderstanding what's actually being proposed? Kirill Lokshin 17:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I plan to create several list articles, yes. they contain a little biography information.Wandalstouring 18:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that this would be a better approach than simply creating separate stubs—combined biographies are extremely rare in Wikipedia. What's the benefit of having them as combined lists, in your view? Kirill Lokshin 18:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The problem is confusing them, so they are numbered like Hanno (1), Hanno (2), etc. sometimes there is a reference that the known biographie stub of Hanno (2) is likely part of the biography of Hanno (1). That is why I think this is a good way to keep track. See, we have mostly confusing biography stubs, furthermore it makes references to other family members easier, like Hanno (6) was the son of Bomilcar (3) and the nephew of Hannibal (19). Nicknames and family names are unfortunately a rare thing. Wandalstouring 19:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, didn't think of that. That should be fine, then, so long as the ones that we do have more information for get branched out to their own articles as needed. Kirill Lokshin 19:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, and the more articles we get, the more we can branch out, but it will never be more than 20% of all leading Punics mentioned.
But I wonder how they communicated with so few prenames and it seems to have worked without much family names. Somehow it is like calling Mr. Smith. Perhaps they had a lot more nicknames than we know. Would be fun to get out some more of them, like Hannibal the Bald (invading Sardinia in PW II)Wandalstouring 19:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Your a wonder full nexus of informationWandalstouring, this tangent on the punic wars will greatly benifit the Wikicommunity with your dedication to filling even the perifial articles. I even thought that such a thing as the Dictionnaire would exist. Are you translating from french as you did with the german information? Mayhaps they used place of origin and adjectives or such as Hanno(6) when spoken in the present was connotative of the living Hanno whom was known in the field on wich the speakers where talking about. Akin to what is done within my circle of friends; The Mathieu that knows hockey, the Punk Mathieu, Mathieu de la vieille ecole... all colloquial surnames that would never be fond on offical documents.--Dryzen 13:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I "translate" from French, but I try not to make a real translation to avoid copyright issues. Wandalstouring 15:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Military history of Italy

Given the large number of Rome historians at this project, I came here to ask if anyone would like to help out with the Rome section of the Military history of Italy article. We already have done the Italian Wars section from Kirill, I'm doing the World Wars and maybe Risorgimento parts, but the Italian military history task force doesn't include Roman history specifically, so I believe it would be best to get an editor from here. -KingPenguin 11:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A-class reviews

[edit] A-Class review for Cretan War

There's a new request for A-Class status for Cretan War that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 22:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A-Class review for Cretan War

There's a new request for A-Class status for Cretan War that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 01:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A-Class review for Caesar's invasions of Britain

There's a new request for A-Class status for Caesar's invasions of Britain that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 21:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] A-Class review for Roman-Spartan War

There's a new request for A-Class status for Roman-Spartan War that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 14:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Barbarians" - Gaul, Franks, Celts, etc.

Would Germanic tribes, Franks, Celts, and other "barbarian" peoples fall under the scope of this task force? I know that in general these things tend to be quite flexible, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world if I did tag such articles (or didn't). But as I don't focus on this subject, either in space or time, I'd curious as to your opinions and such. LordAmeth 23:33, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

If they interacted with the Romans, I think they could legitimately be tagged; there's probably no point to making a distinction on the exact geography here, as they're all part of the same era of military history. Kirill Lokshin 00:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
If the socio-political entity falls in the scope, 700 BCE to 500 CE, I dont see why not.--Dryzen 18:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested articles

The requested articles departement gets reorganized. The requests get moved to the specific taskforce. In case of error move it to a concerning task force.

Wandalstouring 11:17, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Already listed on the open task template. ;-) Kirill Lokshin 13:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Ancient Roman enemies and allies

This one needs splitting down, for reasons outlined on its talk page. Not strictly one for this Task force, but might drum up some interest here, I thought. Neddyseagoon - talk 22:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Roman-Spartan War

There's a new peer review request for Roman-Spartan War that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 02:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A-Class review for Battle of Marathon

There's a new request for A-Class status for Battle of Marathon that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 17:25, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Siege of Eretria

There's a new peer review request for Siege of Eretria that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 23:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Take a look and post your opinion

http://library.thinkquest.org/04apr/00281/romans/rome11.jpg shows a Roman soldier. The question is whether it is a member of the light infantry, called velites, or of the heavy infantry, that would be principes or hastati. I have a conflict with a member of this project who thinks it is a velites and keeps adding this information in the Roman-Spartan War. Naturally I can tell him what I want, he doesn't believe me, so we let more people add their opinions to solve it. A clear point to disambiguate both units would be whether or not he wears heavy chainmail (velites don't). Wandalstouring 19:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history. Kirill Lokshin 19:37, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I was always under the impression that the heavier infantry (principes and hastati) had rectangular shields rather than oval ones; but I'm not sure if those may have been introduced at a later date.
(It's worth pointing out that the image isn't a very good one if the soldier's equipment isn't really recognizeable, of course.) Kirill Lokshin 19:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The shape and structure of the Roman shields were changing, yes. Wandalstouring 19:51, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a hastatus or principes, definitelly not a velites. 1) He's wearing chain armour (lorica hamata iirc), 2) he has a helmet, 3) he carries a heavy and a light pilum, 4) no pelt cap. The illustration in question is by Peter Connoly, in his Greece and Rome at War on page 304 the accompagnying text is: Late republican legionary armed with oval scutum, crude Montefortino helmet, mail shirt, two pila and sword.--Caranorn 20:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Can we be sure that the picture is an accurate presentation of anything rather than a pastiche of various bits of Roman-looking military equipment from a variety of specialties and/or times? semper fictilis 19:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
It fits with the descriptions and reliable images I can't publish here. Wandalstouring 19:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, that's good enough for me. semper fictilis 19:38, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arverni Guard

Could someone source this please? I've trawled and trawled De Bello Gallico but can find no reference. Many thanks. Neddyseagoon - talk 00:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The story goes that the Arveni nobility (heavy cavalry) objected, that's why Vercingetorix is called king of the foot. Will be hard to find any evidence for them, although tribal cavalry troops of that size may not have been uncommon, there is some mention about the trevii having a guard that size.Wandalstouring 10:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic armies (stub)

I'm trying to figure out the appropriate categories for ancient and for medieval warfare (or for Late Antiquity if it gets an independent category). I should probably add the category tags for ancient Roman allies and ancient Roman enemies as well. I am not familiar with similar pages for other 'barbarian' groups but some kind of standardization is probably appropriate. Jacob Haller 02:56, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You got them mostly right; it's just a capitalization issue. (I'm not entirely sure what the article is meant to cover; if it's dealing with the specific militaries of the various Gothic groups, it may be better placed a level down, in Category:Military units and formations of the Ancient era/Category:Military units and formations of the Medieval era.) Kirill Lokshin 03:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request for Structural history of the Roman military

There's a new peer review request for Structural history of the Roman military that may be of interest to editors here; any input there would be appreciated. Thanks! Kirill Lokshin 19:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greco-Persian Wars

In September that article was review a granted A-class status. The article has not had significant changes since. An editor though has appeared in the last days claiming that it is NPOV and inaccurate because its cited references are mostly of Herodotus and not to secondary sources. Your opinion on the neutrality and accuracy of that article are welcome on that article's talk page Ikokki 13:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

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