Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Gambling

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[edit] Project existence and discussion

While discussion about individual articles is appropriate on the talk pages of those articles, sometimes multiple articles are involved or what is done on one article has style and consistency ramifications on others. This talk page can act as similar to the WikiProject Poker talk page where these sort of general style issues can be discussed. Most of the gambling articles deal with poker, so please use the Poker project talk page when that is more appropriate. The Gambling Project is intended to merely expand the great work already done in the poker area to the rest of the gambling articles of the Wikipedia. 2005 01:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Great idea, setting this up, 2005. I'm excited that we have a place to look at the "bigger picture".Rray 02:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template for discussion pages

Now that it has been freed up, I created a project template, {{Gambling}}, that can be added to all the gambling articles talk pages. I would suggest that it NOT be added to all the Poker articles, since those already have the Poker Project template, and all discussion about them would be more appropriately handled within the Poker Project. (I just used the graphic and text from the Poker project template, so maybe there could be a better graphic that someone more creative could make someday.) 2005 03:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Taking Gambling from a game to a business

There are a number of people over the years that have decided to take the games of chance offered by the casinos and attempt to make money from them rather than just play them for fun and the 'chance' to win. What is it that defines the change? What is it that makes it a business? What is going on in the mind of the person that makes this move? This is the question! -- User:Kendaniel

[edit] Possible tasks

I just wanted to throw out some ideas of some tasks that might be added to the tasks section of the project. Looking for feedback before actually adding them to the project page itself.

  • A series of articles describing each blackjack card counting system. (See Card counting.)
  • A series of articles describing each different video poker game. (See List of video poker games).
  • Expanding the list of articles about gambling websites to include the ones that aren't currently included.
  • A series of articles about the different slot machine games available from various manufacturers.

Looking forward to others' input. Rray 03:47, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project Directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council is currently in the process of developing a master directory of the existing WikiProjects to replace and update the existing Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. These WikiProjects are of vital importance in helping wikipedia achieve its goal of becoming truly encyclopedic. Please review the following pages:

  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Culture Directory 2,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Philosophy and religion Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Sports Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory,
  • User:Badbilltucker/Geographical Directory/United States, (note: This page will be retitled to more accurately reflect its contents)
  • User:Badbilltucker/History and society directory, and
  • User:Badbilltucker/Science directory

and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope to have the existing directory replaced by the updated and corrected version of the directory above by November 1. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you tried to update it before, and the corrections were gone. I have now put the new draft in the old directory pages, so the links should work better. My apologies for any confusion this may have caused you. B2T2 23:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inappropriate renaming

A proposal to stranglely rename the Category:Gaming companies has been made here. While it is obviously not well-conceived, please add your comments. 2005 23:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some basic cleanup

I think the project needs to look into some basic cleanup. The lead article of gambling lacks references and appears to include incorrect characterization of industry related terms. We probably also need to split some of that article out to another article or add a section on the gaming industry which is what drives legal (and maybe the illegal business as well). Finally we need to look at the categories. Does anyone understand the purpose of Category:Gambling variants? This looks like a very badly named category. Even after reading the intro I don't understand. I think it is intended for types of games you can use to gamble, but I'm not sure. Vegaswikian 06:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I used Gambling variants because gambling games seemed redundant category-wise, and because nitpickers might say dead pool and lotteries were not "games". I'd be happy to rename it "Gambling games". I find it hard to believe you can't understand the purpose though since it states it plainly, its for individual gambling games. The only issue I see about categorization is whether gambling regulation should be a subcat of gambling and society, but since it is more law than society I think it is better where it is.
I have it in my list of things to do to reference the gambling article, and a couple others, but I just haven't done it yet.
A gaming industry article definitely is a needed good idea. I've put that on my list of things now too, but I'd welcome it if you took a stab at writing one. To anticipate the pitchfork crowd though, what about a title... "Gaming_industry_(gambling)" or "Gaming_(gambling)_industry" or... 2005 08:55, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Category:Gambling variants is a hard read Category:Gambling games makes more sense but is not without problems. Maybe Category:Gaming types or Category:Types of gaming could work. One solution for some of these would be to have a category for devices. That could include slot machines and dice and a few other items. Something like v with a subcat of Category:Gaming machines. I would like to see Category:Gambling regulation renamed to Category:Gaming regulation since this is generally about the legal oversight of the establishments and not really about gambling itself. We really need to clear up what is labeled as gaming v gambling. Vegaswikian 09:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
We do have to anticpate the pitchfork crowd, but also have not be be clearly unclear... "types of gaming" is not right if you don't know it is purely a subcategory of gambling. Likewise "gaming types". Categories have to be able to stand on their own, and of course not get off-topic stuff put in them. Gaming regulation would seem the only one that could stand on its own, most all others would need a (gambling) dab to make the category specific. Things can be in more than one subcategory, so setting up another category (with subcategories) for devices would make sense, but that wouldn't impact how dice games would also be in a games subcategory. 2005 00:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, let me make a starting proposal. Rename Category:Gambling regulation to Category:Gaming regulation. This could be considered by some to be confusing, but the other types of games are not regulated. If this is anticipated to be a problem we can use Category:Gaming regulation (casino) which is probably a better dab since the regulations usually apply to some type of casino, card room or sports book. Create Category:Gaming devices and Category:Gaming machines again dab with (casino) if we feel that is necessary. Finally move Category:Gambling variants into Category:Casino games, I think this one works, but I really need to hear from you if this would work. I guess if there are no objections, you can implement the suggestions that you support. Vegaswikian 00:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Not the last one, because dead pool, lotteries and others are not casino games, and of course poker can be played in someone's house. Why not "gambling games"? It may not be perfect, but it coveres everything and is clear enough. Also what is the distiction between "devices" and "machines"? Why two categories? I'm not saying I oppose that, only that I don't see a distinction... I'd just use the more broard term (devices I assume) and go with that. 2005 01:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not happy with Category:gambling games, but it is probably the best choice so far. As to your second question, dice are a device, a big wheel is a machine or a device, slots are machines. But as I write this reply I could see how using only device might be a better choice for now. Especially since two categories would be rather empty and device can really include both. Vegaswikian 02:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Going for a rename to gambling games and a new gambling devices works fine for me. 2005 07:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Category:Gaming devices since the devices don't gamble. Vegaswikian 07:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] basic cleanup - part 2

Looks like the first set of category changes has been started. Given the discussions about naming in this area, I think the project really needs to define the terms used and the areas covered. Many individuals consider gaming and gambling as one in the same. Hence constructs like Category:Gambling companies which is not really desirable since this does not cover companies that gamble.

We really need to define the project scope more clearly. Most people look at the name and think casinos and stuff like that. However it appears to cover the companies working in this area, the players, the types of games, lotteries, games played in non-regulated environments and probably a few others. I don't think that the project name needs to change. But some work needs to be done to clearly define the scope and to use the same terminology across the various articles. As a example, the main article is gambling which is basically the act. It does not really imply the businesses or the devices that are a part of the process which are not really covered anywhere.

What needs to be done with the lead article, gambling? Should it be split? Should it be expanded to include the companies and casinos? Should it cover gaming devices? Why does it cover Parimutuel betting in detail when there is already an article? Should it be a brief overview with a series of articles on the various aspects that are terms used in other articles? Vegaswikian 01:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I only have a minute now, but we should organize things sensibly, regardless of obtuse edits by others. Gaming companies provide gambling games to the public. While the main gambling article in not good (it should most be just an idex page to other articles), the parimutuel example being obvious, we need to just build up the gaming aspect... if only so nonsense categories don't get made. The first question I see is whether we should depopulate the inapproriately named category, and create one that is appropriate. Besides that, "gaming" being subcategorized under gambling is okay because it can be subcategorized elsewhere. We need to keep it clear that a gaming company isn't required for gambling (people can literally bet each other), and a company doesn't need to particpate in gambling to be in the business of gaming. Gaming and gambling are not the same, but they do overlap, so we shouldn't be shy that they do, while also we need to be sure that they are not used as synonyms. 2005 02:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, we need to 'organize things sensibly'. We should not jump to depopulate categories until there is a clear picture of how this part of the encyclopedia is to be dealt with. The Category:Gambling variants case was one where the creator agreed that this should be changed. However it does show that we are addressing the problems with the structure. I think working on the main article(s) and adjusting the category structure should come first. Then with a better picture we can move to rename if needed for any categories, but first create any new ones needed. I think the rewrites will take a while as will the adjusting of the categories. After I created Category:Gaming devices I discovered there there were quite a few missing so I did have to find articles to add to the category. I suspect that more are hiding out there. Again doing this work will take time. As to the company issue. We probably need to decide if this could be better organized. Does it make sense to put casino operators in the same category as slot manufactures? Would it be better to have these as sub cats? Again, this goes back to 'organize things sensibly' after discussion and planning, and then act. Vegaswikian 07:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've redone and de-crufted the main gambling article so that it is ordered logically and links to the main articles on the subtopics rather than just sort randomly expound on some but not others. I also made a paragraph distinction between gaming and gambling that should make things a bit clearer and allow some parallel structuring to be done in the future. (The one thing I left that is a bit odd is the associated word usage section although it strikes me as mega-trivia.) 2005 00:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Looks better. I did some minor word changes to continue the work. Is this article suppose to use British or American English? My spell checker is picking on some British words. Don't know if they should be changed. Vegaswikian 01:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • We probably need to address wagering/staking/wagers at some point. It should be clear how these interrelate. I sometimes think that this article should be titled wagering. Wager does show up a lot in the article text and in many of the articles. Vegaswikian 01:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
Since this article isn't geo-local I suppose we are going to have a mix of US/UK phrasing, especially since casinos are more prevalent in the US and bokmakers more common in the UK. I suppose a few sentences clarifying many of these terms like bets, wagers, staking, bettors, punters all mean basically the same thing would be a good idea. However the scope of the article is beyond just wagering, as in some of things the wager is the end (a sports bet) while in the others the wagers are merely pieces of a bigger thing (poker games). Also wagers don't have to have monetary gambling, like two mayors wagering on the Super Bowl victor, or the list of wagers thing I spun to its own article. 2005 04:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redirects to the Gambling article

If you look at the redirects to Gambling, many with a number of links, they are not really addressed in the article and clearly lack bolded links early in the article. This list is:

We need to keep these in mind while we decide how to restructure. The more digging, the more problems we seem to find. Vegaswikian 07:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use template

Back in December I proposed a merger for three fair use templates, Template:Game-cover, Template:Boardgamecover, and Template:RPG-artwork. I made an effort to publicise the merge on the villiage pump and various places that deal with fair use templates. After a lot of support on tfd and a lack of opposition elsewhere I attempted the merge on January 15. Post-merge I've had two objections, one of which said that I "should have brought up the merge with the various projects that manage those covers" (which I thought I was doing when I informed WikiProject Fair use). The merge has been reverted by the person who said I should have brought up the merge in more places. So here we go... IF ANYONE FROM THIS PROJECT CARES ABOUT THIS MERGE PLEASE VISIT Template_talk:Game-cover#Merge AND JOIN IN DISCUSSION THERE. ~ ONUnicorn(Talk|Contribs)problem solving 20:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article Review for Blackjack

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Blackjack --Andrew Levine 06:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Blackjack has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does "slot machine" exactly mean

Does a slot machine mean (1) any coin-operated gambling machine or (2) the specific type of a gambling machine where there are rotating reels and the winnings are paid according to matching symbols (that is, a fruit machine)? In particular, is it correct to categorize payazzo and pachinko in the "slot machines" category? At least the Slot Machine article names video poker as a type of a slot machine.86.115.21.76 11:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

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