Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fraternities and Sororities

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[edit] Frat and Service Organization Articles for Deletion

Ladies and gentlemen, we have three frat/sorority articles up for deletion.

If you have any opinions to share in this matter, you are welcome to express them there, although I would caution that AfD is NOT a vote. Regards, Alphachimp talk 23:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Another article
  • Delta Epsilon Sigma Iota

Alphachimp talk 23:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, sorry for belaboring the point, but AfD is not a vote. Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me what you folks say. I just felt that some of you might want to know about these AfDs. Alphachimp talk 00:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I see no need to delete the first three groups you have listed. All three can be quickly verified by a quick Google search. In particular the Beta Upsilon Chi being the largest Christian fraternity is most certainty significant. Chi Rho Omicron has 7 national chapters which I think also warrants a mention in Wikipedia. Finally ESA is admittedly a poorly written article but perhaps with some expansion and wickfying it could also be saved this could be easily done since as I said there is significant info available with a quick internet search. --Trey 02:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fraternity and sorority vandalism

I'm not a project member (I don't think this project is even alive anymore) but it would help out A LOT if people can watch over the fraternity and sorority articles and not just the respective groups they belong to. They are among the most vandalized pages in Wikipedia. Almost everyday I have to remove a vanity/non-notable addition in "Famous Alumni" sections as well as general trash talking. There's often sneaky vandalism and the problem is that if uncaught it can remain in the article for some time which happens quite a lot. I also can't tell you how many times someone has posted the secret mottos, handshakes etc. of many fraternities and sororities. Nearly half of all my contributions in Wiki now are reverting vandalism. A little help please? --† Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 22:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I know what you mean i have quite a few of the Greek Life articles on my watch list and even with the short amount of time i spend on wikipedia i never have a problem finding something to revert or remove on those articles. Also its a pity that it seems this project has died out. So much more work to be done...Trey 22:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much watch over the NPC articles, though I know a few of you have caught what I haven't. Haven't had much time on wikipedia recently but usually I check over them every night at least. Agreed this project did somewhat die, a lot could be added to it. --ImmortalGoddezz 00:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah you've got friends in the Greek Wikipedia world helping you out Dysepsion. There is just so much vandalisim that even if one person had just one article you still couldn't catch it all. But i'll make a note to keep a better eye on some of them. I've already went through and added some more IFC groups to my watchlist i'll work on some of the NPHCs also. btw if enough people are intrested in reviving this project i'll be happy to help work with it. Just throwing that out thereTrey 02:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I try to watch over the articles ive worked on, however, sometimes the vandalism can be hard to spot. Any aricle i see with blant vandalism i correct as i can to best of my ability. Samwisep86 03:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. The reason why I thought I'd mention it is because I've noticed that there has been an increase in vandalism in the past month. Maybe it's because of the new school year; I don't know. Hopefully it'll die down soon. But you are right Trey, it is difficult to catch them all and I became especially concerned when I caught two "sneaky vandalism" additions that were on two articles that were uncaught for several weeks and the fact that several anon users have become bold in actually trying to argue the addition of inappropriate content on articles. I'm also concerned in the way that it really doesn't bode very well among the Wikipedia community when there is constant vandalism on these articles. There's anti-Greek sentiment on here including several admins who don't even want these articles on Wiki. So it really doesn't portray fraternities and sororities in a positive light when people constantly mess with the articles. Glad I'm not alone! Also thanks ImmortalGoddezz. I've noticed even before this Phi Sigma Sigma revert war how you're watching over the NPC articles. Keep up the great work! =) --† Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 05:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm currently watching Alpha Phi Omega, Gamma Sigma Sigma, Omega Phi Alpha, and a good number of the Philippines groups. For the Philippines groups it is tougher because I don't actually know what the facts are, but I'm trying. Naraht 15:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The article for my fraternity, Sigma Alpha Kappa has recently come under attack from unregistered users and repeatly vandalized. I have been reverting everytime I see it, but iwould like some help from the proj. Add the article to your watchlist, and if you see any edit by a IP address, its prob vandalism and needs to be reverted back. ANy help would be greatly appreciated.--Samwisep86 22:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way to quickly watch all pages that have been taken into the project? That would help a lot. I ususally wind up watching every page I edit, but I haven't gotten around to even a sizable fraction of the total. (And, i've been gone for a long time!) -- vijay is now gogobera 03:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Umbrella Orgs.

Since this wikiproject is seeing renewed interests of sorts I thought I'd mention this. I don't know about you guys but I have a hard time keeping track each of the umbrella organizations, and the 'see also' with 4 different organizations listed distracts me. Anywho I was bold and created this Template:Greek Umbrella Organizations and inserted it into all of the umbrella organization pages, I hope nobody objects. If I'm missing one feel free to fiddle with it. --ImmortalGoddezz 23:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright violations

I have had issues with the Beta Theta Pi article. User:Rrude seems to feel that "copyright" doesn't to him or his contributions. One of his reasons for this view was the standard "everyone else is doing it" defense. I noticed a comment elsewhere here about copyright violations on other articles about fraternities and sororities. I have put a source note reminding people about copyrights at the top of the Beta article. If anyone is still watching this project, I ask you to keep an eye out for copyright violations and appropriately remove them and warn their contributors. You can use Template:Cv, Template:Cv-n, Template:Cv-r, and Template:Cv3-n. Thanks.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 19:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On the infobox template...

Perhaps the only reason I haven't joined this wikiproject is this.. (or switched over the NPC sororities). On this wikiproject's infobox it says 'fraternity type.' Some of the greek organizations that it's used on are not fraternities. (I know at the basis a female group of greeks can be classified as a fraternity, and some use that name, but most use the term sorority). I think quite honestly the fraternity can be removed just so that it says 'Type' on the infobox. Another thing is I think that a Jewel parameter should be included into it as well. I'm not saying this just for the sororities or the female fraternities, but several fraternities have official jewels as well, and if you're going to have the symbols, flowers, and colors why leave it out. My last point to bring up is this. Is there any particular reason that headquarters must be included in it? Wikipedia is not the white pages. Additionally when putting the infobox in some of the fraternities I haven't been able to find the headquarters and since headquarters is a required parameter it leaves an ugly white space filled with this ', , USA', I think this needs to be changed so it's not required. Anyway I decided to post this on the wikiproject talk page instead of the infobox talk page because I'm not sure how many actually watch that page, and figured it would get more exposure here. I would suggest just making a whole new sororotiy infobox but that seems like a waste of time as a few minor things need to be fixed on the old one in order to use it on those pages. Thanks --ImmortalGoddezz 16:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hrm. I agree with most of your points. Jewel seems like a perfectly legit optional item, and there should be a host of other optional fields (bird, tree, etc). Sororities that don't consider themselves fraternities shouldn't be forced into using gender inclusive language. On the other hand, I think that headquarters information is important. When I want to learn everything about a fraternity, learning where there headquarters is and can be contacted would be very useful. Perhaps the "ugly whitespace" should just be left as motivation for any and all editors to find that info and add it! I also think that having a new sorority infobox is at cross purposes to the goals of this project, so I'm glad you brought up these points here! -- vijay is now gogobera 03:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed the changes that were made to the infobox (in November), which I think are definitely helpful, but one of the reasons why I still haven't joined, and haven't changed the NPC sororities over is because it still says fraternity type. Anyway since nobody's taken initiative I'm just going to go in and change that so it says "Type" instead of "Fraternity type" and can be used inclusively in sororities and fraternities. I know people can nit-pick over the sorority/fraternity terminology but I'd rather just bypass that whole argument and make the template include sororities and fraternities rather than just fraternities. If you have a problem with that let me know, I just think it's easier to change the wording than to create a whole new infobox. --ImmortalGoddezz 01:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Fantastic. I agree wholeheartedly.  — gogobera (talk) 06:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 21:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sigma Sigma Sigma edit war coming? (help)

I already know that this is going to be a problem, and I want other people to back me up on this. A user User:Ms gwyn has taken Calli Cox off the Notable Alumnae list repetedly from the Sigma Sigma Sigma page. I have warned 2 times previously and then received 3 emails tonight. I will post them along with my singular response. I really do not want to get into an edit war with this person, nor do I want the added hastle of dealing with an organization so I would appreciate that some of you add this article to your watch list (which is the only thing I can think of to ask).

Email 1 Ms. Gwyn 2:20 a.m.
Hi,
I am a member of Tri Sigma, Calli Cox is not a Notable Member of my organization, I am not saying that she is not a member, but she is not notable. My organization and I am sure a lot of other organizations like me recognize that members can choose whatever career they wish, but that does not mean that we want certain job fields attachted to our organization.
I can get the higher ups in my organization to monitor this situation and make sure that name is no longer put in the Notable Member section, but I would rather not trouble them with this.
Thanks for the concern though.
Ms. Gwyn
Email 2 Ms. Gwyn 2:33 a.m.
Besides,
NONE of the other 2 NPC organization have any persons listed in their Notable Alumnae field, adult movie actresses, therefore, Tri Sigma shouldn't either. I am not naive enough to believe that other adult film actresses were not greek in college, because that would be stupid, but they are not recognized as notable, neither should Calli Cox.
Thank you
Email 3 Ms. Gwyn 2:34 a.m.
Like I said,
I will get the higher ups in my organization to stop that, I am just attempting to avoid that.
Thank you
Email 1 ImmortalGoddezz My response 3:20 a.m.
Ms. Gwyn,
Deleting a referenced notable alumnae from any page without rational stating on the talk page is vandalism. Please read over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism "Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia." Wikipedia is not about Sigma Sigma Sigma, wikipedia is a free encyclopedia not run by any organization and therefore does not represent any biased information regarding whatever organization it has an article on. Additionally wikipedia does not censor its information. I'm sorry you feel that way about Calli Cox, but she was a past member, and there are references to prove it, by removing a notable alumnae that has references that pass both the wikipedia policy for verifiability and reliable sources.
As for getting your organization involved please read over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:OWN Sigma Sigma Sigma does not own, nor do you (and neither do I for that matter), the wikipedia page. Any information that can be verified as true can be included into the article.
As for the other NPC articles? Notable alumnae lists are never complete given the fact that people join and leave organizations, the others might not have adult porn stars in their listing because simply the porn star herself might not be notable enough yet. I'm sorry you feel this way about Callie Cox, but like I said before wikipedia is a free encyclopedia where information is not controlled by you or your organization and many editors contribute too, please remember that.
Thank you.
--Candice

I'm not sure this can be reported, but I wanted you all to be aware of the situation. Any comments on what I should do? Anyway thanks. --ImmortalGoddezz 07:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what 2 other NPC organizations she's referring to but the fact that Calli Cox has a Wiki entry that has not been deleted or contested proves that she is notable enough by Wiki's guidelines. Apparently there is a specific criteria to determine notablity for porn actors, something she clearly meets. It doesn't matter whether or not her organization thinks it's notable but whether or not other editors thinks she is. By stating "that does not mean that we want certain job fields attachted to our organization" clearly proves how biased her edits are. The editor is too new to Wikipedia to know the guidelines. There's absolutely nothing her "higher ups" can do. I'd say to keep reverting and if she continues, ask for a block or request for comment so outside editors can get involved. --† Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 16:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defunct Chapters

My questions/suggestions are geared specifically towards Alpha Sigma Phi but I am posting here for general feedback as I don't want to disrupt your efforts for article conformity. We list "Active chapters, colonies, and interest groups" but not all chapters including those that are defunct. I certainly understand what I assume to be the logic behind this - for brevity and because those chapters do not exist any more. But I have three main points on this subject which I'd like to argue.

1) Just because a chapter doesn't exist anymore should not be a valid reason by itself why it should not be mentioned in an article on that National Fraternity. It's part of the organization's history and Wikipedia isn't supposed to be about only current events. The Whig Party is an organization which doesn't exist anymore but they aren't ignored by Wikipedia.

2) Just because a chapter doesn't physically exist anymore doesn't mean that elements of those defunct chapters don't still persist. My chapter is defunct but we still have hundreds of alumni and we are still organized as alumni. Chapters may be for undergraduate students at colleges but you are part of your fraternity or sorority for life! Listing only active chapters is arbitrarily incomplete.

3) Quite frankly it makes no sense to me what so ever that you would list colonies and interest groups which have never actually been part of the organization, but you don't list chapters that legitimately were.

I'm not going to edit anything related to these questions until I get feedback but I am interested in your reactions. Thanks. Fife Club 18:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

A couple of thoughts here.
1) Space may be the fundamental issue here. While the standard for encyclopedic Fraternity articles on Wikipedia would appear to be Baird's Manual, the Baird's Manual entries for some Greek Letter Organizations (which include the inactives) would go well beyond the suggested 32KB limit. Alpha Phi Omega has about 700 charters of which 350 are active. There certainly is one inactive chapter mentioned in our entry, since our Alpha chapter is inactive.
2) The chapter list may be easily accessible elsewhere online, where professional staff are responsible for keeping the information up to date on a daily basis.
3) Some fraternities/sororities do have those in colonies as members of the organization the same way as pledges are members of the organization. They aren't brothers or sisters, but they are members. (and I think some fraternities do make members of colonies brothers at a certain point, but I am not sure).
My personal feelings are: If the overall list of charters (active and inactive) is short (under 50), go ahead and list them all on the page for the fraternity. If longer, consider a separate page. Naraht 13:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the input. I'm not in any hurry so I'll wait for possible counterpoints but I like your idea of a separate article for a complete 'historic' list of all chapters (active and inactive). Fife Club 15:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Going to agree with Naraht here. I’ve always been a fan of creating a separate list page for all chapters. Then you could list out chapters: active, inactive, and colonies, all on one page. And just have a link to it on the main article. Makes things look much nicer in my opinion.Trey 16:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phi Kappa Sigma

The page as it currently stands is just word-for-word copying of copyrighted material from the pledge manual. If anyone has the energy to make an actual article out of it, that would be cool, because I don't. 198.138.40.146 08:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I blanked Phi Kappa Sigma for copyright concerns. Could someone put up some original content, even something short, until we get something solid there? 198.138.40.153 06:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I put up an infobox, a brief descripition, and some things which could be quoted directly. If anyone else can please add to it that would be awesoe. Acidskater 13:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Articles for deletion and a request for a good directory?

  • Sigma Alpha Mu has been brought up for deletion. The discussion is still ongoing, but the crux of it is that it's based on self-published sources. I've fought half the battle: I've found a dissertation showing the fraternity was founded in 1909, but nothing to establish that it's currently national in scope (other than a lot of colleges' fraternity directories). Does anybody know of a good source that is independent of the referenced fraternity(ies) that would have a directory of chapters? I've got a bad feeling we'll have to fight this battle again at some point, so it's probably good to have a source ready for deployment. —C.Fred (talk) 04:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing it up. That's by far one of the most poorly thought out if not ridiculous AfD nominations I've ever seen. --† Ðy§ep§ion † Speak your mind 04:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template

I have proposed a template for the project to be used instead of the generic one. Please see here and discuss. Scoutersig 17:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 23:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Organizations Without a Page/archiving

I have seen many redlinks in lists of National Fraternities and Sororities which has bothered me somewhat. I have created two new pages, Phi Kappa Sigma and Sigma Tau Omega, which are both stubs and need to be expanded. I wanted to add the creation of National Greek Organizations without pages as one of the goals of the project. I really want to hear some input on this. Also, I tried to archive the discussion because it was way too long but the archives are too long themselves, so if you can fix this go ahead and do it. Acidskater 03:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Which nationals don't have a page?Samwisep86 06:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Just scroll through List of social fraternities and sororities and you'll see the redlinks. There aren't many but it isn't gonna be easy to do. Also, if your fraternity or sorority does not have a link to their website put it in. I put in a dozen or so but it would be nice to be able to have a link to each. Acidskater 06:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links to chapter websites in Chapter rolls

Hi there; a little content dispute we're having over at Triangle Fraternity highlights a good question. Should the listings in the Chapter roll have external links leading to the chapters' websites, or is it a violation of WP:EL? --Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 18:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say that it DOES violate policy. A single link to a general fraternity page listing chapter websites should more than suffice. If no such page exists for a fraternity, email them to find out why not. —ScouterSig 20:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rating Scale question

Although I am partial, I would argue that Alpha Gamma Rho (and maybe even FarmHouse, though I am not a big fan of course) should also be more important, as I know that Alpha Gamma Rho may only have a chapter at Land Grant institutions, or colleges with an Ag. School. Because Alpha Gamma Rho has 72 chapters, with the much smaller percentage of college being ag. schools, this shows they are well known in the ag. community. They are also one of the few fraternities (unlike FarmHouse) that is social-professional, with emphasis on men coming from rural backgrounds, studying agriculture, or showing interest in agriculture. I would argue for them being more important. Sjostrom 19:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Ok so i've been out tagging some article and i have a question about the importance scale right now i am rating all fraternities and Sororites with less than 100 chapters as Mid as per the example given in the system. Is this ok? Becuase some notable groups fall into this catagory. just wondering if there were any thoughts on this.Trey 00:44, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that some groups are quite well known. Personally i feel that if the group is a national group with more than 30 or so chapters or chapters in 25 or more states it probably warrents a High rating. Thats just me though. Its really not a huge deal most of the pages are created and maintianed by members anyways so in their minds the group is of Hig importance no matter what the tag box says on the talk page.Trey 20:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Trey, if a Fraternity or Sorority has at least 30 chapters or is present in at least 25 states they should have a ranking of High. If they do neet meet one of these then they should be given a rating of mid. Acidskater 00:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree and will make it so; also/another way of looking at it: if a group is a member of a national conference such as NIC, then they should be classified as "High."—ScouterSig 07:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Sjostrom 06:17, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another question

Many fraternities and sororities have public histories and what not, but after a certain point, things become ritual and secret. I would like to know what information would be necessary for a top rating that actually is respectful to the various organizations and their privacy? I would be more than happy to fill in information, if I knew what else was desired. Liz 06:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

For good or ill, the standard answer to questions like this is to look at Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities. If it is there or on the National website for the Fraternity, it should be OK to post. Please work from the Newest version of Baird's if possible.

In general for information, at the beginning, take what Baird's has, update at equal level from the Web page for the Sorority and put it into Wikipedia format. Use the template for the headquarters location, colors, flower, etc., make sure there is a link to the National website, but try to avoid links for the individual chapters, especially if the National website has one. Alpha Phi Alpha was a Featured Article, so as long as you are somewhere between the start and that, you should be OK. Naraht 13:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetical Order Proposal

We can have both Greek Letter Alphabetical *and* English Alphabetical if we use a sort table like the one for water area in List of U.S. states by area, Greek Letters will make up the first column, Spelled out greek letters (or english non-greek name like Farmhouse, the second and nicknames the third. I'd like to do this, any comments? Naraht 13:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

That's pretty neat, I didn't know you could do that. You've got my vote to do it. —Elipongo (Talk|contribs) 20:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cfd

There have been a lot of cfds lately on fraternity/sorority members. Please go and make comments on it to keep them as they are important for navigation within the greek community. There have been multiple attemps before on the Sigma Chi category as I am sure there have been with others, so Im not quite sure if it is legit to renominate for cfd when a keep consensus was reached. Acidskater 06:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

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