Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Films/Categorization

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[edit] Wikiproject Actors and Directors

I don't know whether you agree or not butI have always beleived that actors and directors and cinema characters are tied to our Film Project. Nobody can dispute the fact that they are part of cinema and films and I beleive we have at least some responsibility to upkeep them if they are directly linked from our film articles. However rather than setting up a seperate project what about Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Actors and Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Filmmakers. THis way they are a part (or at least tied) to our film project. Each page would highlight the articles that require most attention, missing articles etc for better project coordination. WikiProject Biography is so enormoous and I see hundreds of actor and director articles in very poor shape and neglect -Biogrpahy cannot work to effectively concentrate on hundreds of thousands of articles at once!!. The cinema characters would be a part of both projects. Ther is no obligation but it would certianly help to organize it all better, However if nobody wants it as part of films then of course they can be set up independently. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 18:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Biography needs to separate actors and directors from the arts and entertainment workgroup and place them into their own separate workgroup. --PhantomS 00:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Articles can be within the scope of several WikiProjects. I would suggest perhaps creating a Filmmakers work group to this project, which would focus solely on biography articles for those in the film industry. Girolamo Savonarola 11:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree fully with Girolamo -WikiProject:Filmmakers would incorporate direcotrs, cinematographers and editors and producers etc. But do mean include Actors into this? ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 19:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with Wikipedia:WikiProject Filmmakers (there is already Wikipedia:WikiProject Screenwriters) and Wikipedia:WikiProject Actors, but as PhantomS says, these projects have to be dealt with starting from WPBiopgraphies. If such in-between projects are started, they have to align with both projects. I don't think they should be created as Film sub-projects (WP Films/Actors). My guess is they will grow fast and should stand in their own project namespace. Hoverfish Talk 20:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

My idea would be to unify Screenwriters into the Filmmakers project ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 11:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Year in film delinking

There is a user going around hitting many film articles and categorically removing the year in film links from the articles, stating the MOD on dates disallows it when it says no such thing, and causing much disruption to the work of hundreds. The user in question is User:82.3.252.147 and they appear to have a real grudge and point to make with these edits due to the fact they are the only edits made from this IP address. Ben W Bell talk 15:03, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let's see what we say as project to this (from discussions I have followed). The film infobox has it in its guidelines to link "year in film". The year in the lead, does not need to be linked as "year" or as "year in film". Any subsequent mention of year should be linked to "year in film" only if this link is in context and somehow helpful to the sentence (which is usually not the case). As for the fact that this user comes as IP with no account and states that there are "thousands of editors who don't want it" is another problem. However his/her edits cannot be considered disruptive, unless there are other cases beyond the year link. Hoverfish Talk 17:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'm against the delinking. If the lead describes it as a 19xx film, then a link to a summary article about film in that year is appropriate. The JPStalk to me 17:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well now that I checked, I see even the instructrions in the infobox have been changed and in a way not as per our above discussion (see section A film's 'year'). So someone has removed the instruction to link to year-in-film. Hmm... Hoverfish Talk 17:45, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I went into several archives but can't find the last discussion. As per JPS and Ben W Bell, there is a wish to link year-in-film in the lead and probably further into the article. Please, offer further opinions, including if we should have a poll about it. Hoverfish Talk 17:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

These were the instructions from the old Infobox Film Syntax Guide:
  • Release date (Variable: released)
When was the film released? Or when will the film be released?
Use: if possible, the exact release date. ("May 18, 2008") Use the first public non-festival release in any country. This means any limited releases or openings before opening wide should go by the limited release date. If multi-country entries are necessary, you can put the flag icon before the release date for each country (see the 2nd Wiki).
Wiki: [[May 18]], [[2008]]
Wiki: {{Flagicon|United Kingdom}} [[May 18]], [[2008]]

--PhantomS 20:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, there was discussion on this, but never anything conclusive (one place for the discussion is at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Films/archive#Intro_format, that's the first archive of this talk page). However, the discussion was always whether to link to 'year in film' or just 'year' in the opening paragraph, not having a link at all wasn't ever really an option, so there really is a consensus to link to something. I always put a link to a 'year in film' in the opening paragraph, full date for the release date in the infobox (and a link to a plain year if I can't find a full date), and don't link random years mentioned at other places in the article. You can't use 'year in film' for full dates (ie. the release date), since as far as I know, it breaks the date formatting from user preferences. - Bobet 17:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's how I do it too and how I see it done most often in film (and otherwise) articles. Doctor Sunshine talk 18:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
That's also the same method I've been using for the last year when I went through tagging articles or adding infoboxes/images. --Nehrams2020 20:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it needs to be added in the Style guidelines to avoid further confusion.

  • A [[2008 in film|2008]] film released on [[May 18]], [[2008]]. --Crzycheetah 22:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but stating it in that form would be redundant, plus I don't think the release date is usually relevant enough to be included in the opening sentences. How about you say "Use a link to 'year in film' for the first instance of the release year. Any further years should be left unlinked, full dates should be linked normally according to WP:MOSDATE". - Bobet 21:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
That was just an example. I wanted to show how to wikify. --Crzycheetah 17:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reviewing article status

I've been doing some work on Will Hay movies today, creating articles for those without any and tidying up existing ones - particularly Oh, Mr Porter!. This is currently listed as a stub, and I wondered what the procedure was to get this changed to Start class or even get some feedback on what is needed to get the article to a position where a move to Start class would be possible? StuartDouglas 15:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

When to change an article from stub to start is up to whoever wants to make the change. You can read about the criteria at Category:Film articles by quality. I would say the Mr Porter article is start class, myself. - Peregrine Fisher 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The simplest way to determine if it is a start class is to look at the Stub to Start template on the talk page. It lists all of the criteria the article needs to reach start class (infobox, image, cast, plot, good intro, proper cats, and two other sections). If the article meets the criteria, you can reassess the article yourself to start class and the template automatically goes away. We added the template to help improve the quality of the articles, and have achieved some success so far, even though it is at a slow rate due to the large number of articles that are added each day. If you also don't agree with a particular assessment you can ask for a proper review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Assessment#Requesting an assessment. The article mentioned above is definitely a start, so I'll change it right now. Good job and keep up the good work. --Nehrams2020 20:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion of new subproject

For reasons of keeping conversation threads in one place and relieving this page of the extra load, I suggest starting Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/List and navigation management. Like this we could also decide on some guidelines and coordinate better the activities of several members working in film lists, and associated navigation templates. Please offer opinions. If there are no objections, the subproject will start on the 20th of March. Hoverfish Talk 07:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good idea to help set some parameters and clear guidelines for creating and modifying our film lists and prevent the continuous cycles of editors outside of WP:Films who like to remove them (although at times, they do remove some really bad lists). This will help to organize the lists and determine if there are any we should get rid of based on approved guidelines. Who knows, maybe we can get a list or two featured. --Nehrams2020 08:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Strong support THis is a very good idea -wise words again! It would help very much to have such a page to involve other members of the project rather than conversations dominated by Hoverfish and myself. WHilst I do like personal discussion from time to time the majority of film list talk should approprirately be done here. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 11:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Some recent discussion and deletion review of the film country templates resulted in talk being spread out over many talk pages. A project like this would hopefully consolidate that and provide a reference for editors outside WP:FILM. — WiseKwai 12:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

There's a proposed policy, Wikipedia:WikiProject reform, that may or may not have some impact on this. Doctor Sunshine talk 20:44, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Very interesting proposal. In this case all our activities will be completely within the WP Films scope. If you understand better than me the notion of tiers and task forces, how do you think we should organize this best? As for extra tags, we don't need any. Basically, we will be taking care of all WP Films Class=List articles. And by the way of Nehram's comment, it seems to me a list is destined to remain class List (no chance for GA's or FA's here). Hoverfish Talk 19:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I probably don't understand it any better than you—I just skimmed it. The gist I got is that it's to reduce the amount of time people spend setting up project pages and replace project banners with tags such as WPBiography's work-group tags (as well as streamlining efficiency). I just didn't want to see people pour too much work into this or the filmmakers projects mentioned above only to see them gutted or overhauled should the policy become official. I think making it a subsection of this project, such as .../List and navigation management, is fine and what they're getting at. Doctor Sunshine talk 20:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Generally, task forces and work groups are set up to cover specific articles by content. Maintenance and style groups would be considered departments. Girolamo Savonarola 21:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Girolamo for putting things where they belong. So, that will be a department, just like the categorization one. And by the way, I just discovered I am wrong about lists: there ARE featured lists !!! Hoverfish Talk 22:38, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New WIKIPROJECT FILM BIOGRAPHIES

Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals I am proposing a new wikiproject which if it was allowed to develop would become a major project. I have noticed that as a member also of WP Films that articles on actrors, film directors, producers, cinematogrpahers, etc are often to much for Biogrpahy to deal with and are often neglected with no real focus for improvement. I strongly beleive we need an institution on wikipedia to take care of all Film people. I propose Wikipedia:WikiProject:Film biographies. If I created the tag for this project each time you would mark it as WPFilmmakers it would automatically put it is Biography articles and maybe film people as well . Please let me know what you all think. THanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 14:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea, and I see that you've already posted it on Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals. However, IMHO, it should probably be setup like WP Musicians. --PhantomS 14:54, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FYI - standardizing Category:Years in film

Just a heads up, so people don't panic if they notice the changes. I'm in the process of standardizing the format and expanding and cleaning up the subcategories for Category:Years in film. I noticed that while Category:Films by year is pretty well organized, Category:Years in film seems to use a slightly different set up, was missing a number of subcats and didn't use templates for boiler plate syntax.

What I've done is create a new template Template:infilmyr which is similar to Template:filmyr for the Category:Films by year subcategories. I am changing or creating each subcategory of Category:Years in film using the standarized format in Template:infilmyr, and am also moving each Year in film list article (eg 2003 in film) to the corresponding category (eg Category:2003 in film). When my work is completed, you'll have a subcategory of Category:Years in film for every year for which a film related article exists. Individual films will still appear within the corresponding subcategories of Category:Films by year. Finally, as a minor note, I'm removing some of the redundant categories from articles to make sure an article doesn't appear simultaneously in both a category and one of its subcategories (eg an article shouldn't appear in both Category:Years in film and Category:2003 in film since "2003 in film" is a subcategory of "Years in film").

What I'm doing is fairly straightforward, but will take a little time to complete. Any feedback or questions, please feel free to let me know, but in the end this should make "Years in film" better organized and more consistent in style to "Films by year". It will also make it easier to change the format of these categories across the board by allowing an editor to simply edit the template. Dugwiki 16:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Each film is categorized primarily by year. Which means it's Category:19xx films. Is this an additional chronological categorization, or it simply shifts subcategories? Hoverfish Talk 17:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I see what you are doing, but there is a negative effect to it. All individual articles of the years in film series, appeared in category years in film. Now they become subcategories instead, which means that to access each article you have to go to its subcategory to find it. I really don't see the point of this. Can you explain, please the usability of your changes? Hoverfish Talk 18:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

The subcategories of "Years in film" (some of which already existed prior to my working on it) are meant to house the film-related subcategories and articles for specific years. So all articles directly related to film events or specific film releases in a given year will appear in the same category. For example, the Category:2006 in film currently contains subcategories Category:2006 films and Category:2006 film awards as well as some articles about various film festivals and other events that occured in 2006. Its main associated article is the list article 2006 in film. Note, by the way, that this category actually already existed; I didn't create it. All I'm doing is completing the scheme and standardizing the structure using a template.
As far as the individual articles, note that articles are not normally supposed to appear in both a category and its subcategories. For example, an article that appears in Category:2006 in film should not normally also appear in Category:Years in film. However, there is sometimes an exception made for when an article has a category named after it, so as you say it might be worthwhile to also keep the "in film" list articles within Category:Years in film as well as the corresponding subcategory.
What I'll do for now then is to complete the categorization scheme, but also retag the list articles so they appear in Category:Years in film. That should address your concern about keeping all those articles in the same category index and also allow for all film-related articles to be categorized by year under a standardized format. Dugwiki 19:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Done. You should now see all the list articles under Category:Years in film again. They also each appear individually in their corresponding subcategory. Dugwiki 19:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the structure is basically set up now for all years in the 20th and 21st. Once everything is finished automatically propograting the subcategories Category:20th century in film and Category:21st century in film will replace the individual yearly subcategories in Category:Years in film. Then to find the subcategory for a specific year, just click the plus on the century and then decade. It adds a couple of clicks but makes the page much more readable, and is also consistent with how Category:Films by year is created. The list articles will still appear individually. Dugwiki 22:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French animation categorization problem

There is a Category:French animation, which contained most of the animations and a Category:French animated films, which contained only 2 films, which I recategorized with the rest. I am not sure, however, if they belong there rather than in the now empty category (or if the category should be renamed). Please, help solve the problem before the empty cat if CfD'd. Hoverfish Talk 16:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think they should all go into the French animated films category. Same as Category:Canadian animated films. Doctor Sunshine talk 22:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I did it, but it's only French and Canadian which have such a category. Some other countries have "animation", some (including Belgium and UK!) none. I will have to go through cat:Animated films and see if it's worth creating some. Also this parent category must be depopulated in favor of subcategories. Needs some premeditation. Hoverfish Talk 00:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

As a somewhat heavy contributor to the animation side of film coverage, I favour creating the subcategories of "Country animated films". The reason is that there is already a category called "animated films", and in practice most of the articles in the "Country animation" categories are actually about animated films. It makes sense to create those subcategories, because then we can create a more sensible category hierarchy - so that instead of being in both "Country animation" and "animated films" categories, an article will be in just one category. This will mean that many or most of the articles in the "Country animation" categories will have to be moved, but I think that there will still be a few articles left in most cases - for example, the "History of Country animation" article(s), famous actors, studios, festivals, etc. Esn 01:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization of films by language

I observe a questionable categorization by language. We seem to follow closely the languages that IMDb gives. For quite some time I had the feeling that they state language even if it concerns a few lines only. For example in Green Card (film), imdb gives English and French. From what I remeber there were only a few instances in the film when Depardieu spoke French. I think it's wrong to give many languages for a film, although there could be exceptions to this. I know it's hard to decide if one is not familiar with the film, but it looks necessary we limit categorization to the most predominant language. Hoverfish Talk 20:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I had that feeling too. I'd say most films have one main language with only rare bi- or multilingual films exceptions like Bon Cop, Bad Cop and the original cut of Lola Montes. And then there's films for which two separate language versions were shot simultaneously such as Nosferatu the Vampyre and a lot of early sound films. And notable dubs, like Godzilla and Howl's Moving Castle. I was never happy with how I did The Green Slime, too many flags. Doctor Sunshine talk 22:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I also agree, I've had some disagreements with a relatively new editor who insists on adding language categories for every language used in a film. Titanic had, until recently, 5 language categories and the Pirates of the Carribean films had Turkish as a language category! Films such as Cronos where there are significant portions spoken in different languages should be the only ones with more than one language category. Unsigned comment by User:Mallanox 13:13, 25 March 2007
Ok, let's formulate it clearly in this project page, and let us also repeat this instruction for the language given in the film infobox, and maybe also in the film style guidelines. It has to become clearly displayed and well understood, as the mess it creates in some of the categories :Films by X-language makes them almost unusable. Hoverfish Talk 13:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization by genre

I think we should leave genre in the proposed categorization, as it is the most practiced and applied way. The vast majority of films are categorized (or stub-categorized) by genre. It's not a question of objectivity rather than one of how we are used to relate to films. Hoverfish Talk 08:27, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

You can use any of the categories to relate a quality of the film. That's not the point. The idea is to have a few specific markers which should be easily definable and non-contentious in and of themselves. (How we choose to define the category standards may be well-debated, but whatever standards emerge should not be subjective itself.) My point is that there is no verifiable way of choosing a genre category. It's not that it's not a useful category, but for the purposes of essential categories which should exist with no excuse, the other listed cat types are fairly easy for anyone to lookup and assign for a given article. Girolamo Savonarola 01:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Film related sub-category

There are about 50 articles marked simply as film-stub that are not films, or fit into any of the existing categories. They are generally related to 2 areas: film terminology (not really "filming") and "Cinema of (country)" that doesn't have it's own stub category. Would it be beneficial to begin a [[Category:Film terminology]] category? I'm sure that the country stubs will appear some day, but don't know about the other. SkierRMH 06:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Under Category:Film there is a Category:Film and video terminology and also there are several other categories where some of these articles may be categorized, like Category:Cinema by location. But for new film-stub categories, you have to propose them in Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals. Hoverfish Talk 07:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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