Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation/Malplaced disambiguation pages

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[edit] Relevent discussion from the WikiProject

[edit] Stamping out reflexive disambiguation in article titles, take two

I agree with the above comment in #Stamping out reflexive disambiguation in article titles that it is remarkably counterintuitive and circuitous to have a "page x" be a redirect to "page x (disambiguation)" when one could simply put the disambiguation on "page x" itself because there's no article there. It's always immediately clear when an article is a disambig page, unless it's formatted improperly; that's the entire point of the "disambig" notice to begin with! So is there nothing I or anyone else can do to fight this remarkably useless nuisance of a tendency to move perfectly good disambig pages to the same page with a redundant "(disambiguation)" notice added to the end where not at all necessary? Is there no ongoing debate, no consensus discussion, no way to enforce the Wikipedia guidelines regarding avoiding redirects when possible just because a few people want to arbitrarily impose the very awkward and lengthy "(disambiguation)" name on hundreds of page that don't even need it? Not only can I not move the pages myself 9 times out of 10, not being an admin, but now I can't even ask others to do it because there's no consensus one way or the other on the matter? I feel so impotent. :(

There's something terribly wrong with the world when Darwin redirects to Darwin (disambiguation), Titan to Titan (disambiguation), aether to Æther (disambiguation), excelsior to excelsior (disambiguation), expulsion to expulsion (disambiguation), lupus to lupus (disambiguation), and dozens of other blots upon the legacy of mankind, countless other redundant and arbitrary redirects to drive from me all faith in a just and loving God. And don't get me started on other arbitrary inconsistencies, like Agnus Dei redirecting to Lamb of God while the disambig is at Agnus Dei (disambiguation) (even though all that information could simply be in a "in popular cuture" and other similar sections on an "Agnus Dei" or "Lamb of God" article anyway, since it's all derived from the same exact source). Arr. Every time I see one of these pages, a little piece of my soul dies forever. What to do? -Silence 23:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you present a good reason to move a disambiguation page from Fooboo (disambiguation) to Fooboo? Why not just leave the situation alone in each case, doing the move has no benefit as far as I can see. Also, leaving Fooboo as a redirect allows it to redirected easily in the future.--Commander Keane 23:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Why do any of the trivial janitorial work that so many Wikipedians do, when the benefit is also seemingly limited (when compared to say, the benefit of contributing five paragraphs of sourced text)? Because when you shrug all the little things off, they begin to add up, and you end up with an inconsistent quagmire trying to come off as an encyclopedia. The reasons have already been stated. It's the same reason why The Beatles should not be reflexively redirected to The Beatles (1960s band): it's sloppy, inconsistent, reflexive, and a redirect that can be avoided.—jiy (talk) 02:35, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
If you can get some consensus then I'll fix any of these things I come accross, and possibly get someone to use a database dump to help me track them all down. Maybe establish a quick pole at the MoS, since here is rather quiet.--Commander Keane 04:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Given the Generic pages swap checking section below, I'll start fixing these.--Commander Keane 08:46, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Generic pages swap checking

As you may have noticed, there's been some discussion about Primary versus Generic pages over at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation#Page naming Generic topic. Therefore, based on discussion, I just changed the text at Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Generic topic.

Each "XYZZY (disambiguation)" page in Category:Disambiguation needs to be checked whether it has a Primary topic page. If it hasn't (either it doesn't exist or it's only a redirect), then the page should be moved from "XYZZY (disambiguation)" to "XYZZY".

That shouldn't be too hard, as there are only about 10% pages with "(disambiguation)" and only about half of them are actually generics needing to be moved for consistency. It doesn't require looking at the page for style, but it's as good an excuse as any. Share and enjoy!

--William Allen Simpson 08:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Human name disambiguation

Well, I've gone through the entirety of Category:Human name disambiguation and visited every page with "(disambiguation)" in it, checking the links, fixing dozens of pages, and applying consistent style to those pages. However, I did find a large number of pages that were only had redirects of the un-"(disambiguation)" title pointing to them, like Francis Bacon being nothing but a redirect to Francis Bacon (disambiguation). Not being an admin, I couldn't move most of these pages; someone else will have to tackle that bit. To make it quicker, here are all the ones I found problems with:
I'll list more articles I've stumbled across with this problem later, like Yes.
Additionally, there seems to be something vaguely psychotic about the Sue Miller (disambiguation) -> Sue Miller -> Sue Miller (author) -> etc. infinite loop, and certainly something inefficient (why not just move her to "Sue Miller", delete the disambig page, and have her give a broken disambig notice at the top to the other Sue Miller until that article exists?). Also, Jonathan Edwards (theologian) needs to be moved to Jonathan Edwards, since it redirects there anyway.
And, though this is purely optional and a complete tangent, if I was God, I'd make Darwin a redirect to Charles Darwin and move what's currently at Darwin to Darwin (disambiguation); 90% of the entries on Darwin are either named after Darwin or direct family members of Darwin, and 100% of them are less significant than Darwin himself, and, of course, Charles Darwin, like Einstein and Dickens (or Napoleon or Dante for first names), is quite frequently referred to by only his last name, so we should expect numerous people to search for him with only "Darwin"—many more people, in fact, than will search for everything else combined that could be called "Darwin". But that's just my preference and view on the matter, and it's a debatable point; if you disagree with whether Charles Darwin is a noteworthy enough figure and known enough by just "Darwin" to merit making it a redirect, at least the way it currently is is acceptable, if not ideal. -Silence 10:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll work on these. In the future, could you use a bulletted list instead of big paragrpahs. Engineers (and engineering students like me) are rather scared of long paragraphs. About Darwin, I already took care of that one earlier today and it's lucky you are not God because, I'm from Australia and Darwin is always Darwin to me, and we can't always be so lazy as to leave off the Chales when refering to scientist.--Commander Keane 11:14, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Certainly, I'll change it to a bulletted list right now. I considered doing one to begin with, but was worried that it'd use up too much space on the page if no one was interested in fixing the pages. *goes to change*
And, as for Darwin: Bah. Canada. In that case, my best suggestion would be a link on the top of Charles Darwin like '"Darwin" redirects here. For the territory, see Darwin, Northern Territory. For other uses, see Darwin (disambiguation).' But I suppose it's not a big deal. I'm not exactly overjoyed with the current arrangement, but I'm satisfied! -Silence 11:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ' to AZ

I'll handle these. Like Silence, I'll list those that need admin attention. William Allen Simpson 14:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've done everything above this line. In some cases I didn't dissolve a disambiguation page even if there were only two options. I need to see some consensus before I do that. For example the request:

(just move Joseph Duncan (politician) to "Joseph Duncan" and provide a link to the sex offender at the top)

I can't do that without some discussion first, becasue various people will argue about which Joseph is more important.

There is a strong possibility that a script will be run on a database dump which will list every instance of these mal-named generic dab pages . This means I may move the discussion to a subpage somewhere, but I'll leave a notice here about where I moved it.

In the mean time, keep on listing them here.--Commander Keane 03:27, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

In which case, I'll stop checking, and wait for admins using the script. There's only so much a non-admin can do....
--William Allen Simpson 09:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New discussion

[edit] Only admins can move them?

I thought (normal) users could move a page X to page Y, if page Y is a redirect to page X and without any other history (i.e. only one edit, its creation)? Or is this page is for pages for which page Y does have a longer history? (To apply it here, page X is "Foo (disambiguation)" and page Y is "Foo".) Just clarifying, Neonumbers 10:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You are right, I didn't realise that normal users could force a move over a page with only one edit in the history. I'm not too sure what to do about it though, encourage normal users to peruse the list hoping to find these instances? Get the script writer to check for the these instances (not sure if that's possible/feasible? Or just leave the situation as it is? In any case, I'll explain that normal users can perform some moves, thanks for pointing it out!--Commander Keane 10:33, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I was able to do some, and only found 2 so far that needed admin attention, but really the time spent looking through them all isn't worth it when there are already scripts to build the Wikipedia:Links to (disambiguation) pages, and now this list of those that need reversing. Better let those with the proper tools handle it, instead of doing it by hand.
--William Allen Simpson 15:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hmm.

Some time ago I thought of a good reason for all dab pages to be Foobar (disambiguation). If I remember I'll tell you what it was. Hmm. Rich Farmbrough 00:12 10 March 2006 (UTC).

Nah, there's not really a point. If we were ever to resort to such an extreme measure, it'd be easier to just make a Disambiguation namespace for all dab pages, rather than using parentheses so excessively. -Silence 00:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The "(disambiguation)" is useful for spotting dabs on your watchlist/recent changes?--Commander Keane 09:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The name

I'm glad this WikiProject exists, but I don't understand the need to coin the neologism "malplaced". Couldn't it be called "Misnamed disambiguation pages" or something? Angr/talk 09:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

I chose it. Bo Lindbergh (who has a remarkable vocabulary that I am much envious of) used it first, and I descided to name this project with it.
I thought that the word/neologism was great because it was unique. You wouldn't, for example, think this project was about fixing capitalisation misnaming (eg Foogle (Television Series)).
Also, this isn't really a blockbuster project, it's just a bit of cruft and I think "Malplaced" is a fun word.--Commander Keane 09:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I will resist the temptation to downgrade him from en-4 to en-3 on the basis of this coinage. I think it's an ugly word, but that's just my opinion. Angr/talk 10:15, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
It's not a neologism, just a rarely used construction. BD2412 T 14:16, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I invoke the Power of Google to convince everyone that I didn't coin it myself. Bo Lindbergh 14:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
EEEEAAAAAGHH!!! The Power of Google!!! I'm blinded!!! BD2412 T 14:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't really care whether its a new coining or not: at least it's not as awkward and ugly a word as "disambiguation". Why not just call the pages "Rumpelstiltskin" instead? -Silence 14:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Disambiguation and redirection templates

With the current effort to remove the word (disambiguation) from the article title has greatly affected the pages that use templates from the list of templates located at Disambiguation_and_redirection_templates. I found these templates very useful, are we to continue to use them? Most of the templates requires that the syntax of the article title be in the form Article Name (disambiguation). HJKeats 11:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

To get a suffient response, this question should be listed at Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation. Please provide an example of the "great affect", to help people understand. As a precursor, you are misusing the templates. Also, this project has not really had much of an impact, the templates still work.--Commander Keane 11:54, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
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