Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Clans of Scotland

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Contents 1 Original project: Tartans 2 Project:Clans 3 Thumbnail images 4 Requirements 5 Hello...? 6 Sample WikiProject 7 Macintosh 8 Clan Munro 9 Structure 10 Current Status of Clans Project 11 Consistency 12 CFD - Category:Scoto-Norman Clans, keep or delete? 13 Status? 14 Template:Clan stub 15 Lord Lovat 16 Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland 17 Project directory 18 Clan MacEwan 19 Wikipedia Day Awards 20 Derbhfine 21 Template for members to join this Project needed 22 Redlinks 23 Template: Clan Infobox 24 Clan Fraser

[edit] Original project: Tartans

I think its needed. Wikipedia should contain more information than any enecylopedia has ever had. The image is abit to large maybe scalling it down to 250px wide. - fonzy

I'm thinking for the standard size maybe 320 X 320 pixels at this same scale. This one could afford to be scaled down and still be okay, but some of the others have a whole lot of really tiny stripes, in both directions, and I'm afraid those details would get lost if I scaled them down much more, and some of them have a much larger "repeat" than this one, but I think using a square for them would work -- that is, using what is the full width of the book image for the height, too. A 320 square fits on my screen nicely, but I don't know what settings other people are using. -- isis 10:59 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'm sure that this will be popular but bear in mind that it will be a never-ending task. Remember that most tartans are the work of marketing people working for Scottish woollen mills. They started work after Sir Walter Scott invented the modern concept of tartan in the early 19th century and they're still at it. New tartans come out every month. -- Derek Ross 11:22 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your point -- are you saying that's a good thing or a bad thing? There are new plaids all the time, surely, but if we're talking about clans' tartans, there can't be a new one until there's a new clan, so they can't be proliferating all that fast, I think. (Or are you suggesting expanding the list of tartans to the non-clan ones, too?) But even if they are multiplying like rabbits: (1) that's the best reason I've heard yet for doing it here, because a book of the clan tartans can't be updated without printing a new edition, but the 'pedia can be up-to-date all the time; (2) that will give contributors new material (pun intended) forever, so it's like job security; and (3) just because somebody starts a new article or list doesn't make them responsible for keeping it current, so it's not going to be my problem, if problem it is. But now that you mention it, and I see you're in Scotland, while I'm a whole ocean away, and you already know more about the practical stuff about tartans than I do, I think you should volunteer to oversee this project to make sure it's done right. Would you? -- isis 12:48 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

Going by the Wikiproject title I thought that you meant tartans. I'm not really saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just trying to say that it's an absolutely enormous task and I don't think that we could keep up. However if you really mean a Wikiproject on Clans and their tartans, then that's much more doable. However 99% of clans didn't have a specific tartan before the 19th century. Now it's got to the stage where each has several. I can choose to wear Ancient Dress Ross, Ancient Hunting Ross, Modern Dress Ross, Modern Hunting Ross and no doubt others which I'm not aware of. None of these existed more than two hundred years ago no matter how Ancient they claim to be. The big thing in mediaeval Scotland was Coats of Arms and Crests not tartans. The Lord Lyon's court is the oldest heraldic court in the world still in operation. Check out http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/Lyoncourt.htm if you're interested.

Anyway, if we were to do articles on individual clans which mention the tartans that would be good but I think that we just need a general article on tartan itself. I'll happily comment on and discuss a Clan WikiProject with you. -- Derek Ross 18:33 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

There are at least mourning tartans, chiefs' tartans, and district tartans, in addition to those you mentioned. The book I have says "ancient" just means it's a lighter shade and that the clan tartans going back to the 1600s were simple two- or three-color checks but distinctive as to district.

[edit] Project:Clans

Yes, what I have in mind for this project (subject to what I hear from everybody else) is what I said on the subject page: A list of the clans on a page that discusses the concept and has links to all the separate clan articles. Each article would include the history of the clan, its mottoes and war cries and theme songs and crest badge and whatever else we know about it, plus images of however many of its tartans we have and a list of the surnames it comprises. Then there would be one page on tartan(s) -- for which there's already a link on the kilt page -- and then we could list and link the pages with the images of tartans to that one however we decided to (or not). If we wanted to expand to non-clan tartans, that page would give us the jumping-off place to separate pages titled with the names of the tartans themselves or to pages for the mills that designed them or whatever.

This project is part of my campaign to make every 'pedia article multi-media, so I'd love to be able to get sound clips of the various clans' fight songs and such. So let's keep the name for the project page (unless you want to change it, because I don't know how to do a page move yet, and I'm not sure when I delete one I'm doing it right) but with the understanding it's really a project on clans, and when we start setting up the pages, they'll say "clans" instead of "tartans". But I want to work on images, not text (and maybe not anything if enough other folks are willing to do it). And welcome aboard. -- isis 19:12 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, Isis. -- Derek Ross 22:09 Oct 24, 2002 (UTC)

Is scanning in Tartan photos from a book allowed by copyright? -- 137.111.13.32

Yes. -- isis 01:23 Oct 25, 2002 (UTC)

Could you try to make a mock artcile? - fonzy

Yes, having waited a decent length of time for input from the nay-sayers I know will crawl out of the woodwork as soon as we post it, I'll put something together, but I may not get it done until after the 4th, because I have an appellate brief due then that I haven't started yet. I thought I'd do Clan Ross for the prototype, since Derek probably knows the most about it and so can better tell if we're dealing with all foreseeable issues. -- isis 20:35 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

Not to be a nay-sayer or anything, but isn't the association of tartans with clans a fairly recent notion? (see http://www.fabrics.net/tartan.asp). Not that they aren't interesting in themselves, but it would be wrong to perpetrate the idea of a clan's 'ancient tartan' if in fact it dates from the 1800s... -- Someone else 21:27 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

"Ancient" doesn't mean "old" in this context, it means "faded" in the sense of a lighter shade -- it's a term of art. We all know the modern tartans don't go back very far, but all the other indicia of clan identity do, which is one of the reasons we're doing clans now, not tartans. Would you like to help, please? -- isis 21:33 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

If I see anything I can add, I certainly will, though the likelihood is I'll be of little use. I just beg you to make clear that 'ancient' means 'faded' each time you use it, because otherwise the non-cognoscenti (like me) will be misled, since it's not the usual meaning of the word. -- Someone else 21:39 Oct 27, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Thumbnail images

About Images: If we follow a format similar to that of WikiProject Countries we will have a thumbnail picture (or slightly larger than that) and a larger version of the picture. The main article will have the smaller picture on the screen and then a link to a larger picture, such as a link to a "Fullsize Picture." This solves the problem of having too large pictures on the main article (for people with slow internet connections and so forth) but allows you to have a larger image that people can see the important details if they desire. Clearly JPEG images should be used to lower file sizes. -- Ram-Man

[edit] Requirements

This is my (poor?) attempt at summarizing some of the requirements for these articles:

• General Requirements
  • A list of clans on a single page which introduces and discusses the concepts.
  • There would be one page on tartan(s) listing and linking the pages with the images of tartans to that one however we decided to (or not).
• Specific Information
  • Clan History
  • Crest Badge
  • Coat of Arms
  • Tartans
    • Use pictures no larger than 320x320 pixels (smaller?) using the .jpg format.
  • Area of Scotland (with a map?)
  • Mottoes
  • War Cries
  • Pipe Music (Clan Songs)
  • List of surnames it comprises (what is the upper limit to the number of them for a single clan?)

The book I have lists about 600 surnames for about 125 clans, but some surnames appear in more than one clan. Rough estimate: Most clans will have about half a dozen, some have a dozen or more, so I think the upper limit would be around two dozen. For the maps, I was thinking of one standard outline map of Scotland (or maybe even just the Highlands) and coloring in the part(s) where that clan is. There's some work to be done on the crests, because the ones in the book are b&w line drawings with a heraldic description that doesn't always mention any colors; the text says they're used on stamped metal badges, so we need to decide whether to do them as line drawings, silver-gray, or multi-colored (when we know what the colors are).

Most of the clans have at least two tartans, although the book pictures only one for each of them. I don't want to futz around with thumbnails and larger pictures for the tartans -- I think it will be more efficient to use one size, the smallest that allows the thinnest stripes in the pattern to show clearly (probably 250x250 pixels) but show as many as we know and have images of. I don't yet have any pictures of anything except the tartans (and the drawings of the crests), but we should allow room for images of famous people and/or events in the clan's history. Most of the clans have "plant badges" (like heath, holly, myrtle, hazel -- for Clan Ross it's juniper), and I have some b&w line drawings in a Dover clip-art book or two of public-domain plants, but not nearly all of the ones needed for all the clans; I'd like to have space for the ones we do know and can find images of, but that's on my wish list, and if the consensus is it's too much trouble, I'm willing to do without images.

Will any of you be able to buy or borrow copies of the book I have (or any other that has the same info) so I don't have to provide the text for whoever's going to write it up for each article? For any of you who don't know it yet, ISBNs link automatically, so if you just click on them, they take you to on-line dealers to buy them from: ISBN 0-00-411117-6 is a small hardback, and ISBN 0-00-636416-0 is a "Fontana" (whatever that may be), but in different editions it may have different ISBNs; mine is the 1984 reprint. I'm hoping to do no more than scan stuff in, whether tartans, crests, and/or text for someone else to rewrite into the article.

Not all clans have all items, but the categories are:

• name in English
• name in Gaelic
• origin of name
• crest badge
• motto
• plant badge
• war cry
• pipe music
• dress tartan
• hunting tartan
• clan history -- about three paragraphs for most, fitting on one page

I don't know anything about putting music clips in except that one can do bagpipes with midi. Where we would get the scores I have no idea, but then I haven't looked for any yet. So what else does anyone need to know from me at this stage? -- isis 03:29 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

I've posted a sample page at Wikipedia:WikiProject Clans of Scotland/Sample page/Clan Ross for us to start working out the format, and there's some info about it on its talk page. -- isis 13:55 Oct 28, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Hello...?

is there any hope in getting this up and running again? - fonzy

Who else is actively adding content to this area - Nfras 00:02, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

No one at the moment. The main force behind the idea does not contribute to the Wikipedia any more. However it is reasonably complete when viewed as a template, so if you want to use it to format clan articles, feel free -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:48, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks Derek. I have been using the template and adding some clans. I am going to start by adding an entry for every clan of the Standing Council, starting with Agnew and working my way down. The major problem I have is getting hold of tartan pictures that are copyright free. If anyone can get a source it would be great. Nfras 05:24, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

I'll add some content, just the same as the usual Wiki articles?

[edit] Sample WikiProject

It has been proposed that every WikiProject choose a single article which represents what the Project members hope each article will eventually look like, so that interested onlookers can see where a Project is heading. If this project is ready to choose such an article, please do so and link to it after the Project name at Wikipedia:WikiProject. If there are no articles ready for this yet, you may wish to focus as a group on an article which is close and/or will be relatively easy to research.

[edit] Macintosh

The Mac link point to the computer. Anyone more qualified want to make a proper Mac page or must I?

[edit] Clan Munro

Been playing with a page for Clan Munro at User:CatherineMunro/Clan Munro -- comments? I need to write the history section properly, with some more research, but am getting the basics down for now. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller....? Catherine | talk 05:37, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, Catherine. But you might want to change the title that says "Septs of Clan Ross". -- Derek Ross | Talk 08:22, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

[edit] Structure

Instead of the verbose structure provided on the Clan Ross Sample Page which was recently added to the Clan Ramsay article, I've created a template for this type of data. See Template:Scottish Clan. Also see Clan Ramsay for how this template is used. Adraeus July 3, 2005 02:11 (UTC)

Looks nice. Of course we didn't have the option of templates when Isis came up with the Clan Ross layout, so the verbosity is more a result of keeping it simple enough for ordinary users to edit without them. Templates make this sort of thing much simpler. -- Derek Ross | Talk 3 July 2005 06:12 (UTC)

[edit] Current Status of Clans Project

What is the current status of this WikiProject? How many folks are still working on it, or interested in doing so? There is a Highland Games Wikicity, founded by myself last April. Should this project be tied in with the Highland Games Wikicity in some fashion? Or perhaps the main work should be done on the Wikicity with subsequent transfer of relevant material to Wikipedia?

JFPerry 01:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm definitely still interested, though I've just found the project.

Still interested but not having much time to contribute. I'd like to have an entry for every clan up by the end of next year if that's possible. (Nfras 05:08, 30 November 2005 (UTC))

I don't think that anyone is actively working on this project at the moment. However if someone wants to, just do it. You don't need to ask anyone. You can see the basic framework by looking at the project page. All you need to do is implement it! Cheers, Derek Ross | Talk 06:41, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Can I add myself as a participant in the project page and set about helping out, using the templates linked to above? I'm a real, live Scottish Highlander (who still lives there) and would very much like to help out with this worthwhile project as much as possible. Lianachan 17:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Please do. - Trevor MacInnis (Talk | Contribs) 18:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

It seems to me, especially when we have so many Clan articles, that we should strive for at least a bit of consistency. I've been using Template:Scottish Clan (created by User:Adraeus) viewable at Clan Fraser and Clan Ramsay that I think works well.. At least, the page looks a bit more tidy than some of the other Clan pages I've seen, which have large, bulky images and bunches of blank page space. The biggest issue is that entire sections are devoted to as little as one or two senctences, sometimes even only a few words' worth of information (Clan Ross is a good example of this). What do the rest of you think? Canaen 00:46, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] CFD - Category:Scoto-Norman Clans, keep or delete?

There's a CFD (Category for Deletion) procedure in process for Category:Scoto-Norman clans.

Somebody had posted a truly rubbish bit of text there (a rather strange ramble about Clan Fraser), on the Category page rather than an Article page; while failing to categorise a single article as relating to a Scoto-Norman clan. Which provoked a call for deletion. I've cleaned things up a bit: moved the text to an article Scoto-Norman clans (though it's still rubbish); and added "Category:Scoto-Norman Clans" to a few clan pages.

I don't know whether the category should be kept or not. I think it's really up to people following this project to decide. Is it a useful thing to have a category, gathing up all the clan articles with origins identified as Scoto-Norman? Is it a useful common link explaining any shared traits in the subsequent history or behaviour of some of the clans? Or (since most of the clan members had no Norman descent) is it an irrelevant non-useful over-specificism that should be deleted? Or delete at the present stage of the project, perhaps to be re-considered at some later date?

Up to you guys to decide. Make your views known on the CFD linked from Category:Scoto-Norman Clans, and/or also discuss here. CFD is likely to close in a week's time. -- Jheald 23:52, 12 February 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Status?

Hey, just checking in here. This WikiProject seems to have no communication; I've no idea if anyone's even working on other clan pages. So I invite you to list here what you're working on as far as this project goes. I also want to see how many people are still actively interested in this project still. Canaen 19:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Canaen: I'm working on Clan Fraser pages, basically everything in [[Category:Clan Fraser]]. Canaen 19:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

• Nfras: I'm working on getting an entry for every recognised clan by the end of the year, working from 'A' down. If I can get 4 a month done I'll be happy. Just had an operation which has left me out of the picture for a couple of weeks but hopefully will get an entry added today. (Nfras 00:17, 21 April 2006 (UTC))

• Lianachan: I have not touched any clan pages at all. External pressures are ensuring that my wiki editing remains just the odd tidy and flesh out. So - actively interested? You bet. Actively contributing to the project, I'm afraid not. Lianachan 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

• Ram-Man: I removed myself from the list. I can only claim to have some interest, but don't forsee having any time... perhaps ever. So I'll still perhaps look here from time to time. Ram-Man 17:02, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• Kathryn NicDhàna: I have only just discovered this page. I'm not going to commit to any level of workload at this juncture, but will probably drop back in and add to pages when I have time and relevant information. I *might* commit to starting pages for my ancestral clanns, but we'll see how my schedule goes. --Kathryn NicDhàna 07:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that that's the way we've all done it, Kathryn. This wikiproject has never been hugely active or community-minded. It's more of a template and a resource for people who want to do their own clan in a reasonably standard way. I suppose we could go through all the clan articles in WP ruthlessly standardising them to match our template but I don't think that any of us are particularly in favour of doing that, so it hasn't been done. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Clan stub

I've created the following stub for use with Scottish clans and related articles. You can use it by putting {{Clan stub}} at the bottom of an article. Hopefully this will help facilitate not only the organizing of Scottish clans, but also the construction, as we'll be able to see which ones desire more attention than others. Granted, right now it seems more will be on the stub list than not. Canæn 19:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Template is now {{Scotland-clan-stub}} OzLawyer 21:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lord Lovat

Hiya. If anyone reads this, and wants to help out the legacy of a Clan, please take a stroll over to Lord Lovat. There's a tiff developing over the numbering of the Lords Lovat. I'd like it if y'all would take a gander at the arguments, and give your opinions. Canæn 06:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Scotland

Since the coming of WP Scotland, is there any precedent for putting WP Clans of Scotland under the scope of WP Scotland? Canæn 23:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Project directory

Hello. The WikiProject Council has recently updated the Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory. This new directory includes a variety of categories and subcategories which will, with luck, potentially draw new members to the projects who are interested in those specific subjects. Please review the directory and make any changes to the entries for your project that you see fit. There is also a directory of portals, at User:B2T2/Portal, listing all the existing portals. Feel free to add any of them to the portals or comments section of your entries in the directory. The three columns regarding assessment, peer review, and collaboration are included in the directory for both the use of the projects themselves and for that of others. Having such departments will allow a project to more quickly and easily identify its most important articles and its articles in greatest need of improvement. If you have not already done so, please consider whether your project would benefit from having departments which deal in these matters. It is my hope that all the changes to the directory can be finished by the first of next month. Please feel free to make any changes you see fit to the entries for your project before then. If you should have any questions regarding this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you. B2T2 17:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clan MacEwan

Currently deciding on best form of name to use. I think most of the societies officially use "Macewan" or "MacEwan", though at least two that I know of have used "Ewen". I think "Macewan" is the form I've seen used by most of the tartan manufacturers. I've started brainstorming at User:KathrynNicDhàna/Clan MacEwan, but may be slow to complete this. --Kathryn NicDhàna 03:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 21:14, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Derbhfine

Given Lyon Court's procedure for forming Scottish clans, involving calling a derbhfine to elect a Chief, I think it would be appropriate to begin a derbhfine article, if anyone is interested...maybe discussing other meanings of the word as well as its context in the "election" of a Chief? Isoxyl 21:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template for members to join this Project needed

I used the usual conventions of {{User WikiProject Clans_of_Scotland}} and {{User WP Clans_of_Scotland}}and nothing happened, so is this project up and running so people can join etc? petedavo 08:00, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Now working. Orderinchaos78 11:25, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Redlinks

It seem a bit untidy to have templates under construction on the main page. Good luck with the project. Fred 10:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template: Clan Infobox

Just browsing by and I wanted to contribute to this project as I am myself of Scottish descent. I see the creation of an infobox of high priority and I will work towards this goal using the one on the Clan_Fraser page as an example. Regards, JE.at.UWO^U|_T 18:40, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean like Template:Scottish Clan? Or something different? Isoxyl 20:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

That's the one I used all right. Canæn 06:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clan Fraser

Hello everyone, as some of you may have noticed, I've basically written the Clan Fraser article all by me lonesome (that's actually true; I would avoid claiming it if I could), and I would love some input as to how I (or others!) could improve the article. I wonder if I should go about this by requesting a Peer Review? I'm completely knew at actually attempting to gain status (sush as GA or FA) for articles, and I'd love whatever input I can get from y'all knowledgeable and generous fellow Scots. Canæn 06:01, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I added a fair bit to the Clan Fraser page about the Jacobite risings including the Battle of Glenshiel in 1719 and the events in Inverness in 1715. 195.137.109.177 14:14, 18 March 2007 (UTC)