Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2007/March

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[edit] Proposals, March 2007

If you create a stub type, please move its discussion to the March archive, add it to the list of stub types, and add it to the archive summary.

[edit] Split of sportspeople stubs

I suggest a split of the sub categories of sportspeople stubs in a similar way to people stubs i.e Cat:Sportspeople stubs by nationality and Cat:Sportspeople stubs by sport as the number of subcats is getting larger (currently 49 and 6 further proposals below) and the order more difficult to keep seperate. It would match more closely with the list of stub types which is split in this way. The only subcat that doesn't fit in either would be Cat:Olympic medalist stubs which I would propose remains a subcat of the main category. Waacstats 22:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Seems like a good idea to me. Alai 02:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fencing-bio-stub

I Propose Cat:Fencing biography stubs and {{Fencing-bio-stub}}. There are at least 60 articles. The only problem is there may not be enough non bio stubs for a stubs for a cat. Waacstats 22:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support. It doesn't look like this will empty Cat:fencing stubs to a disgraceful extent, given that it'll thereby have this as a subcat. Alai 02:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadianfootball-bio-stub

I propose Cat:Canadian football biography stubs and {{Canadianfootball-bio-stub}}. Again there are at least 60 articles. Please note these are for people involved in the sport of Canadian football and not Canadians involved in the sport of football/soccer. I would appreciate some help with the naming of the category (and possibly template) to help distinguish this category from Cat:Canadian soccer biography stubs and {{Canada-footy-bio-stub}}. Waacstats 22:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment - we use the slightly nonintuitive {{Amfoot-bio-stub}} as a child of {{Americanfootball-stub}} - a similar name of Cafoot-bio-stub would make some sort of sense (not that i really like it or the American football equivalent). As to the category...? Grutness...wha? 23:10, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
  • that idea made melook at other stub templates, what about {{cfl-bio-stub}} analogous to {{afl-bio-stub}} for australian rules football. Waacstats 23:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4 foo-sport-bio-stub

A number of countries with large (but not yet very large) bio categories could easily take a sport-bio-stub so I propose

although I hav not done a full count I am sure all will pass 60 stubs and also be new parents to between 2 and 3 sub categories as well. Waacstats 22:48, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{house-band-stub}} / Cat:House music group stubs

According to StubSense there is 104 potential stubs, according to CatScan from {{band-stub}} there is 95 possible candidates. I suggest upmerged template first to see if there is "too many" false positives, if there isn't, then category too. Monni 19:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{house-musician-stub}} / Cat:House musician stubs

CatScan says there is 37 potentials tagged with {{electronic-musician-stub}} in Cat:House musicians. StubSense says there is 260 potential stubs starting from Cat:House musicians. I think truth is somewhere in between. I suggest upmerged template first and optionally category after proper count gives over 60 stub articles. Some articles would be double-tagged with national electronic-musician-stub, but I think that isn't something bad. Monni 13:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{pune-geo-stub}}

Hi, I am proposing this new stub regarding city of pune. There are many article marked with this stub. This stub was already created by me. Though I was not aware of this standard procedure of proposing and then creating. Have a look at Category: Pune city stubs which shows that there are enough article to support creation of this stub. Please decide on soon as this stub is already marked for deletion. :(

Following are standard guidelines for proposing a new stub, lets see if this stub meets criteria

Checked! No such stub exists

  • Will the new type be well-defined enough to help editors identify articles that they have the expertise to expand? Remember that using stubs categories is a way to facilitate article expansion

Definately helpful, there are many new articles regarding pune that are marked with this stub

  • Does the new stub type cover ground not covered by other type, or create a well-defined subtype that does?

Some (not all) pune related article are marked in {{maharashtra-geo-stub}}, but those are lost in long list that this stub has. Having a more specific stub makes sense

  • Will there be a significant number of stubs in this category; are there enough article stubs to warrant this new type?

Right now I am able to find some 65 articles and are marked with this stub, and can definately grow if other volunteers jump in

  • Would your new stub type overlap with other stub types?

Possible, but overlapping is among different categories, For eg; Sawai Gandharva Music Festival is a very well known music festival of pune. It is stubed in both Cat:Music festival stubs and this stub.

  • If you are breaking a subcategory out of a pre-existing category, will the new stub reduce the size of the parent category by a significant amount?

I don't believe so

Now please decide quickly, I don't want this stub to get deleted before any decision is reached. And sorry for not proposing it here.

spacejuncky 04:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This stub type has been nominated for deletion at WP:SFD already - as such proposing to create something already created seems a little strange. What you created as a geography stub is not being used as such - it is being used as a generic stub for the cuity, and as such should not be called Pune-geo-stub. Similarly there is no reason for the word "city" in he title of the stub category. these are the reasons I suggested renaming at WP:SFD.
To answer your specific comments:
  • Is there a stub for this topic already?
    • Yes - Maharashtra-geo-stub.
  • Will the new type be well-defined enough to help editors identify articles that they have the expertise to expand? Remember that using stubs categories is a way to facilitate article expansion
    • "Definitely helpful" is not an answer to "Is it well defined". The answer is "no" - it is defined as a geo-stub but clearly not being used as such.
  • Does the new stub type cover ground not covered by other type, or create a well-defined subtype that does?
Geography items related to Pune are covered by Maharashtra-geo-stub. other articles are definted according to what they are - Indian-organisations, universities, people, etc.
  • Will there be a significant number of stubs in this category; are there enough article stubs to warrant this new type?
    • No. There would not be if it was used according to the definition of what this stub is. There are only about 20 Pune geography articles in the category. the others have no relevance to geography whatsoever.
  • Would your new stub type overlap with other stub types?
    • Definitely. It cuts through the geographical/organisational/biographical/educational hierarchy, and tries to pass all of these off as "geographical".
  • If you are breaking a subcategory out of a pre-existing category, will the new stub reduce the size of the parent category by a significant amount?
    • I agree with your answer, I don't believe so. For a new stub category, the answr should be "Yes".
I repeat what I said at SFD - a Pune-stub might be quite useful, but it is clear that you do not want a Pune-geo-stub, since very few of these articles are about locations. As such, they should be double-stubbed with a Pune-stub (if such is warranted) and with whatever Indian or Maharashtran specific stub typ[e is also correct. Grutness...wha? 00:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I am not really getting what you guys are arguing about. What I see the reason behind what I feel confusing comments from you all is the fact the name is Pune-GEO-Stub. I screwed with the name, it is very misleading and I am sorry for that. When I created this stub there was no intention of creating stub for Pune geography or Pune division/district geography. My only intention was to have all pune city related article stubbed so that more volunteers chip in to expand those article. When stubbed any enthusiastic wikipedian can find that all pune city related articles at one place. This is what I want to convey, now whatever you decide its your decision. I am not keen in helping in creating stubs for all six division of Maharashtra as suggested, because frankly I am not able to see it. Plus I will be on short vacation so wont be logging in for next 7-10 days. :)

spacejuncky 04:07, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay. To cut a long story as short as I can and to combine comments from here and SFD, part of the problem is with the geo-stub, yes, and Maharashtra-geo-stub does need splitting. When it is split (which will probably be very soon) it will almost certainly be split by district. As to a non-geo type for Pune, the main problem is the name of the city and the district are the same. To call it Pune-stub would therefore be confusing, as would calling it Pune-city-stub (which by stub naming would indicate a stub for articles on cities in Pune District). {{PuneCity-stub}} would get round that, and would be used double-stubbed (i.e., articles would receive that and another stub template - for example a stub on a university in Pune would receive both Pune-stub and India-university-stub). The main question that remains is whether a separate PuneCity-stub would have enough stubs if a Pune-geo-stub was used for all articles on geography in Pune District, since it is usual in those cases not to double-stub an article with the city stub (places in New York City, for instance, get NewYork-geo-stub - NY State's geostub - but not NYC-stub). Grutness...wha? 08:24, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
District or division? The existing subtype of Maharashtra-geo-stub is Konkan-geo-stub, for the Konkan Division. Of course with Pune, we have the complication that Pune is the name of a city, a district and a division, altho thankfully not of a taluka. Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{Bolivia-bio-stub}}

Bolivia is still missing a -bio template (parent holds 177 articles). Category if / when we reach 60. I didn't do a proper count. Valentinian T / C 23:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support both template and category when 60 articles. Waacstats 23:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval music stubs

I'd like to propose adding a stub category for medieval music, as {medieval-music-stub}. Most music historians tend to focus on periods and not types of things associated with music, and thus the stub categories by "composers", "albums", "groups," are less useful for finding stubs on particular periods of expertise. I found 79 stubs with stub sense in the category Medieval Music, of which about 45 seemed to be candidates for going into the new category. I also found about 25 articles which stub sense did not find. Here are about 50 of the most interesting.

Adam of St. Victor,Adenet Le Roi,Albertus Parisiensis,Aleyn,Ambitus (music),Andreas Staier,Anonymous IV,Audefroi le Batard,Bamberg Codex,Basse danse,Baude Cordier,Beatritz de Dia,Cancioneiro da Biblioteca Nacional, (music publication stub--incorrect: not published) Canso (song),centonization,Chantilly Codex,Cornamuse,Crab canon,Dames Margot and Maroie,Ekphonetic notation,Engelberg Codex,Estampie (band),Euouae,Falsobordone,Formes fixes,François Andrieu,Gregorian Modes,Heer Halewijn,Heinrich von Ofterdingen,Ivrea Codex,Kassia,Ligature (music),Matteo da Perugia,Mensurstrich,Micrologus,Monochord,Monophony,Naker,Odo of Arezzo,Ordo Virtutum,Oswald von Wolkenstein,Pastorela,Planh,Prolation,Psalter (Bamberg, Staatsbibliothek, MS A. I. 14) ,Robertsbridge Codex (classical composition stub--incorrect: a book of compositions), Rote,Sequentia (music group),St. Martial School,Thomas Fabri,Tuotilo,Vielle

This is my first time proposing a new stub category, so I'd appreciate any help refining it. --Myke Cuthbert 00:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

  • My first thought was to wonder whether a combination of bios and non-bios was such a good idea, but to be fair, and as you point out, it does seem to fall under a single permcat, in a way that just the people wouldn't seem to. I'd say it seems fair enough, though ideally the people would get a combination of stub tags that covers their occupation, their nationality, as well as their "genre" (to regard this is that light, very broadly). So that might require some triple tagging, in cases there there's no single "country-occupation-stub" template (but things could be worse). Alai 01:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I think medieval-music-stub is a good start. We could refine it into medieval-composer-stub, medieval-music-theorist-stub, medieval-music-manuscript-stub, medieval-music-source-stub, medieval-music-theory-stub, and so forth, but there will always be outliers. It's a messy area that doesn't quite fit in with the way things are classified elsewhere. Some of the topics (e.g. François Andrieu) will probably never be much longer than stub-length, since little is known about them (unless someone has published material on his handful of known compositions). Antandrus (talk) 16:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Bear in mind that there's always the option of creating those as templates (only) now feeding into the same category, with a view to "future expansion" if there's an anticipated need. Alai 17:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed about some of the articles never getting longer than stub length--I asked on Wikiproject::Biography about articles like this and didn't get a response. They're not stubs (in the sense that anyone could do a little work and add to them), nor are they start class even, but they're definitely not B or A class by their definitions. As far as other things go: I'm not sure how to do what Alai proposes, but it sounds like that could be a good idea.
      • Basically it'd just mean creating a number of separate stub templates, as usual, but giving them all the Cat:medieval music stubs category, until such time as they're "big enough to be out on their own". (i.e. keeping them upmerged until they're past the creation threshold, as we say in the local jargon). I sympathise about the "permastubs": this seems to be becoming an issue in all sorts of areas. One possible remedy is merging, but how well that's likely to work for medieval musicians (unless a given group are truly closely related in some obvious way) seems unclear. Maybe it's a sign that wikipedia's getting "full"?(!) Alai 19:04, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calvinism stub

We at Wikipedia:WikiProject Calvinism would like a stub template for our stub articles. You can find a list of our current stub articles at Category:Stub-Class Calvinism articles. While I'm not sure that 100% of these all qualify strictly as stubs. I'm sure it's more than the 30 required for a WikiProject stub template, and nearly certain that more than 80 of the 122 stubs would be classified as a stub by anyone.

The proposal would be to use the name Template:stub-calvinism, and continue using the current category.

-- TimNelson 02:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Given that we have nearly 2000 stub types, all in the form X-stub, I doubt you'll get much support for calling this one stub-X. Also, there is a specific difference between the wikiproject specific article class system and general stub categories, so using the current category wouldn't make sense. If there are a reasonable number of artices, then a {{Calvinism-stub}} and Cat:Calvinism stubs would be reasonable, though I wonder exactly why you want that given that you're already using a WP class-grading system. Grutness...wha? 03:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Modified proposal: I propose instead that we name it as suggested by User:Alai and User:Grutness. Their overwhelming arguments convinced me!
-- TimNelson 03:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds sensible. We also have {{Lutheran-stub}} (which is possibly not the world's best name). Support modified proposal. Valentinian T / C 23:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support modified proposal. Plenty of stubs to include. I almost proposed this one a few weeks ago. Blarneytherinosaur talk 03:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maritime-trades-stub

I'd like to propose a general stub type Maritime-trades-stub for use with WikiProject Maritime Trades that will help us manage stub-class sections and articles in this WP. The project is new, but 31 articles that fall into this category are listed here. Cheers. Haus42 16:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

  • The scope seems a little ad hoc with respect to the permcats, it seems to me: roughly speaking this seems a bit like a union of Cat:marine occupations and Cat:sailors. Off the top of my head, I'd suggest either: creating separate upmerged templates for each of those; or, creating a stub type with a scope corresponding to a wider category (none spring to mind, but it might not be beyond the wit of man to devise and create one), that would encompass both. Alai 00:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I think I might have been a bit vague. The scope of the project includes not only the people and their occupations, but employers, historical events, labor issues, skill sets, techniques, and to some extent tools. I can't see a reasonable way to work around that level of complexity. Cheers. Haus42 01:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Personally I'm opposed to stub types with overtly "bespoke" scopes, if they can't be brought at least vaguely in line with other article-space categories, on the general basis of them being, well, article-space categories (at least more or less). Especially if the only way to explain what the scope is is with reference to the wikiproject, which then necessitates an (additional) self-ref being transcluded into articles, another Bad Thing (TM). That's what the talk-page templates and categories are for (insofar as having the two system in parallel makes any sense at all, i.e. to a fairly limited extent). Alai 01:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks like it duplicates the scope of the existing {{water-stub}} / Cat:Water transport stubs and {{ocean-stub}} / Cat:Oceanography stubs and overlaps with {{fishing-stub}} / Cat:Fishing stubs and {{weather-stub}}, {{engineering-stub}} / Cat:Engineering stubs, and {{climate-stub}} / Cat:Atmospheric science stubs but only concerning the maritime aspects. Looks like most of those 31 stubs you mentioned should be marked with {{water-stub}} if they aren't already. I wouldn't mind a rename of {{water-stub}} to {{maritime-stub}} or something else to avoid people thinking it's a subtype of {{drink-stub}} and it appears that there enough stubs to at least warrant an upmerged {{marine-engineering-stub}}. The fishing stubs are small enough I'm doubtful of even a upmerged template for the oceanic fishing stubs at the present time. Caerwine Caer’s whines 02:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
    • "Maritime" would be narrowing the scope, and departing from the current permcat parent, Cat:water transport. But perhaps there's a case for an additional maritime-stub, and adding a broad Cat:maritime transport permcat, or something to that general effect. Alai 03:00, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Thank you both for your efforts on this. The concept, I think, if fairly easy: "Working on water." "Water transport" is almost right, but it misses a big chunk of people who work on the water. Fishermen are the easiest example. Offshore drilling is another. I'd be happy making due with "water-transport" but it seems a bit like using a fish as a hammer (which I'm not opposed to). Haus42 03:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I take your point; I didn't want to suggest just Cat:maritime, since using adjectives as category names isn't preferred, though I suppose if the worst comes to the worst, Cat:maritime topics would cover it. But then if we create Cat:maritime topic stubs we'd have a substantial overlap between the two, but no strict inclusion... Alai 03:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
    • You do realise we also already have {{Fishing-stub}} which would cover at least some of that? Grutness...wha? 03:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Surprisingly Absent Basketball Terminology

The term "airball" is definitely basketball jargon and (through empirical tests of my girlfriend) anyone who is unfamiliar with the game will surely have little idea of what the term really means. This is why I propose a stub for this term, as it has also been sighted in many articles: Jason McElwain, Traveling (basketball), Jim Valvano, 1983 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournament, Raja Bell-Kobe Bryant Rivalry, 21 (basketball)

In the article: Variations of basketball it is only given a bracketed definition, however, because it is used in all these other articles I think it is worth having.

Note that this page is for proposing stub templates and categories: if you just want to create a stub article, just edit airball (basketball), if if your account is too newly-created, ask at WP:AFC. Alai 04:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, altho unless the article is going to include information about the origin or other history of the term, a link to the Wiktionary entry would be better. [[wikt:airball]] will produce a link to the Wiktionary entry on airball. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] US-hoops-bio subcats

  • Cat:United States small forward stubs
  • Cat:United States basketball power forward stubs
  • Cat:United States basketball center stubs
  • Cat:United States shooting guard stubs
  • Cat:United States point guard stubs

This has been oversized for a long time, but on hold due to a lack of any plausible permcats to split on. I've created those now (you'll note I personfully resisted the urge to de-Websterise l'utilisation dérivé du mot français «centre»). On the theory those'll be populated in the fullness of time, there's 1300+ such stubs, and that a basketball lineup has exactly one of each of the five positions, these should all be more than viable (unless there's a lot of very lopsided teams out there, or some subtle systematic positional bias at work). I'm not sure exactly what to suggest for templates, but I'd suggest that for some sort of clarity, they either use the name of the position in full (hyphens you could argue either way), or they at least prefix whatever obscure abbreviation might be current with the established template element "hoops-". Upmerged double-catted templates for generic forwards, generic guards, power-centers, swingmen, point forwards and other such hybrids would also be feasible, if anyone especially feels the need. Alai 23:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Have you/we considered splitting by decade of birth, same as with actors? It might be a better way of sorting than by court position since there is a certain amount of overlap with some players... Grutness...wha? 05:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
    • We did do something like that for baseball, but only after splitting by position (a bit better defined in that sport, I'll grant you), though in that case it was decade-of-activity, rather than of birth. Alai 06:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, some kind of split is definitely overdue... perhaps by position first and by years if any further splitting is needed (the by position cats will already be approaching 300 each). BTW, are coaches already split out? If not, that would also probably be useful. Grutness...wha? 06:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
        • They're not, but I was assuming it'd been proposed already... If not, seems like a plan. Alai 16:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
          • Coaches are already split out as are women. I have looked at some of the articles and there seems to be more articles with a date of birth than a position, and half those with a position are vague (point/guard could be one of four positions from what I can tell) so I would suggest a split by decade of birth. Waacstats 21:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
            • D'oh... significant undersorting, then. Point guard is a single position, though in theory, forward-centre could denote three positions, and forward-guard, four (likely to really mean two in each case, as I understand it). I've been working on categorising these, and I've tagged around 400 that were relatively "obvious" (but skipping the forward-centers and forward-guards, at least for the time being). If domain experts get on the case, that should go up quite a bit. But admittedly, there's already 1200 in DoB cats, so that would be pretty easy to do. Alai 03:06, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I should mention that if we go with "..., 19X0s birth stubs" cats, then the 40s..80s are all viable by a distance, with a big drop off down to the 30s, which was at 41 at last dump. (New dump cycle has started, btw, contain your collective excitement.) Alai 03:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:European football biography stubs split

Categories for those nation already have Template

But there is a big problems, the total numbers of these nation's players article, almost all were stub, it look stupid to cat all article in the nation to stub cat. Matthew_hk tc 04:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And unmerged Template for

Matthew_hk tc 04:59, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support categories are close enough and templates seem viable size wise. Waacstats 07:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - I have gone ahead and started making cats. Poulsen 06:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Italian, French football biography stubs, split

Just like the English one, split into player's position. Matthew_hk tc 04:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Makes sense. Alai 04:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Support . Waacstats 07:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Syria sports

First I apologize, I didn't know about this proposal system being in place, so I had actually created the stub template ( {{Template:Syria-sports-stub}}) and category... If they should be deleted before this proposal is accepted, someone can do that or tell me. Some articles that could use this proposed stub: Abbasiyyin Stadium, Al Majd, Al Taliya, Al-Assad Stadium, Al-Futowa, Al-Hamadaniah Stadium, Al-Horriya, Al-Ittihad (Aleppo), Al-Jaish (Syria), Al-Karamah, Al-Wahda (Damascus), Al-Wathba, Hutteen (Latakia), Jablah (football club), Khaled bin Walid Stadium, Syria at the 1948 Summer Olympics, Syria at the 1968 Summer Olympics, ....., Syria at the 2000 Summer Olympics,Firas Al Khatib, Tarek Jabban, Teshrin, Aatef Jenyat, Adnan Al Hafez, Jamal Al Sharif, Anas Al Khouja, Firas Issmael, Jehad Al Hussein, Mosab Balhous, Mustafa Hamsho, Naser Al Shami, Zyad Chaabo, Ghada Shouaa, Joseph Atiyeh, Al-Fayhaa Stadium.

  • Fairly sensibly scoped, but is it big enough for a separate category? (i.e., at least 60 existing stubs) If not, I suggest the template be kept, upmerged. (Though -sport-bio- and sport-venue- templates might be more useful for that purpose.) Alai 02:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Hi, I added some more, bringing the total above 30 articles. I should have mentioned that all these articles are part of WikiProject Syria (The requirement mentions 30 or more if associated with a WikiProject). Also, I am not opposed to having sport-bio and/or sport-venue templates. Asabbagh 03:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
      • The scope of WPJ Syria is Syria (unless I've very much mistaken), and there's already a {{Syria-stub}}, so the "30 clause" doesn't apply here (otherwise, I'd apply everywhere). So, I'd suggest upmerging, as above. Alai 05:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I believe the category is likely to be populated with 60 and more stubs in time. There are still hundreds of uncreated Syrian sport biography articles which are when created, most probably going to be stubs. That is if there aren't already 60 or more uncategorized articles out there. By the way, I've moved the stub template to the correct page - {{Syria-sport-stub}}. - Anas talk? 08:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European politicians

Eventhough the toolserver database only contains obsolete data, it still has its uses. I suggest the following templates (categories if / when we find 60 articles):

  • {{Ukraine-politician-stub}} Stub Sense reports 49 articles (out of 330 articles. The category now holds 390 articles).[1]
  • {{Luxembourg-politician-stub}} Stub Sense reports two figures: 47 [2] and 54.[3] Iff we get a category, I'd like to hear some native speakers of English commenting on the category name. We have Cat:Luxembourgian politicians but Cat:Luxembourgish people. I presume this means that the correct name will be Cat:Luxembourgian politician stubs if / when we find 60 stubs?
  • {{Lithuania-politician-stub}} Stub Sense gives 53 [4] which is probably a little too high. Anyway, enough for an upmerged template.
  • {{Iceland-politician-stub}} 40+, upmerged template
  • {{Croatia-politician-stub}} 40+, upmerged template
  • {{Serbia-politician-stub}} 40+, upmerged template

Valentinian T / C 01:04, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary suggests that Luxembourgian is the noun, Luxembourgish is the adjective. Thus bio-stubs relating to Luxembourgians should be in Cat: Luxembourgish people stubs. The politicians permcat is thus incorrectly named and should probably go to CFD. Grutness...wha? 01:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Based on both List of adjectival forms of place names and the style guide I use, the GPO style guide, Luxembourger is the noun, and Luxembourg is the adjective form to be used. Firefox's spell checker doesn't complain about Luxembourgian (or Luxembourger), but it does not like Luxembourgish at all. Luxembourgian appears to refer to the language not the people. My 1962 copy of Webster's New International Dictionary, Second Edition, doesn't give any adjectival forms at all which suggests that the word hasn't been in the English language long enough to obtain a definitive adjective form. Still, given that we have several sources that concur that using Luxembourg people and Luxembourg politicians is correct usage (not necessarily the only correct usage, but at least a correct usage) why don't we go with Cat:Luxembourg politician stub? Caerwine Caer’s whines 09:14, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer a name as consistent with the others as possible but if the permcat goes to CFD, a lot of other categories need to go the same way (see subcats of Cat:Luxembourgish people, most importantly Cat:Luxembourgian people by occupation) Valentinian T / C 13:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Because of this discussion I've done a mass CFD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_March_25#Luxembourgian_people suggesting a standardization on Luxembourgian. Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been bold and given Lithuania a proper category anyway; I found almost 70 articles. Valentinian T / C 19:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of {{Wintersport-bio-stub}}

{{wintersport-bio-stub}} is over 650 articles, 2 sports and three nationalities having there own categories, according to stubsense the following would be possible (remember numbers may be inflated as I haven't done a hand count)

  • {{Norway-skijump-bio-stub}} (45 articles) (upmerged included in above total)
  • Cat:Cross country skiing biography stubs / {{XC-skiing-bio-stub}} (229 articles excluding below)

Waacstats 17:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Seems like a good plan to me. Alai 18:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I can't say I'm happy about about using an abbreviation, albeit one that is well determined as long as skiing is being mentioned. How about Cat:Nordic skiing biography stubs / {{Nordic-skiing-bio}} et al. instead of the XC entries? At the least, we could use it as a parent anyway for those who compete in the Nordic combined so as to as avoid double stubbing. Also, shouldn't that be {{skijumping-bio-stub}}? After all, we don't have a {{ski-bio-stub}}. Finally, we ought to consider {{biathlete-stub}} (65 entries) and either {{shootingsport-bio-stub}} (123 entries, not counting the biathletes) or {{shootingsport-stub}} (25 non-bio entries plus the athletes) to serve as a second parent for the biathlete stubs short of Cat:Firearms stubs. (All numbers courtesy of Stub Sense). Caerwine Caer’s whines 23:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree that it probably should be skiijumping and not skijump, I also have no problem with using crosscountry as opposed to XC it's just that when you have a nation split the template becomes very large but then that not a big problem. Using nordic skiing instead of XC would not be a good idea because nordic skiing also encompases ski jumping, biathlon, nordic combined but as a parent for these cats I think would be useful

I back a proposal for biathlon but suggest {{biathlon-bio-stub}} in case there are any people who are known for there involvement in biathlon without necessarily being biathletes (coaches, organisers, announcers etc). I also back Cat:Sports shooters biography stubs but should the template be at Template:Shootingsports-bio-stub (the events are categorised under shooting sports) or {{sportshooting-bio-stub}} (the people involved are categorised under sport shooters). Waacstats 11:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{organist-stub}}

  • A stub for all the organists that are currently in {{keyboardist-stub}}. A quick look on the Wikiproject PipeOrgan here will show the current list of organists, marked with stub as appropriate (there are still about 50 organists still to add to this list which may/not be stub class. Current estimate is around 85-100 articles. –MDCollins (talk) 00:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
    I think this is a good idea. Computerjoe's talk 23:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bavarian geo subtypes

Holy Roman Empires, Batman: suddenly, Bavarian-geo-stub is at nearly 1200. In theory, this should be straightforward to split into:

  • Cat:Upper Franconia geography stubs
  • Cat:Middle Franconia geography stubs
  • Cat:Lower Franconia geography stubs
  • Cat:Swabia geography stubs
  • Cat:Upper Palatinate geography stubs
  • Cat:Upper Bavaria geography stubs
  • Cat:Lower Bavaria geography stubs

(the Regierungsbezirke) with 96 upmerged templates from the 96 constituents (Landkreise and kreisfreie Städte), since not every Germany state has the "middle" layer. However, there's zilch categorisation on either such basis, hence, no counts. Alai 04:33, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Wir sind zwei Musikanten und komm'n aus Schwabenland ... If only "Franconia" didn't sound so bad :) The articles normally use the German forms like e.g. "Oberfranken". Support templates, categories when 60. Valentinian T / C 22:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
What the heck is a music edge? :) Not for these regions they don't (at present): Upper Franconia, Middle Franconia, Lower Franconia, Swabia, Upper Palatinate, Upper Bavaria, Lower Bavaria. The districts seem to use the German forms (doubtless due to a lack of any likely English equivalent in most cases). Alai 23:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Popular material isn't included in German lessons in Danish schools. :) I just noticed that the articles about the districts use German forms except for the names of the see Amberg-Sulzbach. Perhaps the infoboxes were translated by bot. Valentinian T / C 16:49, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cyprus Bio Stubs

{{Cyprus-bio-stub}} / {{Cyprus-footy-bio-stub}}

We need a stub for people of the EU nation of Cyprus. Historic Cypriot figures as well as footballers are two types that could be updated in we had a stub category for them. NYC2TLV 20:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Just did a hand count and found 67 people under Cat:Cyprus stubs. Support bio stub with an upmerged footy-bio.--Thomas.macmillan 21:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Sounds feasible, but be warned - Cyprus is a minefield of editwars. I'd recommend having no icon for it (if you have a map, there are complaints from Greek Cypriots; if you have a flag, there are complaints from Turkish Cypriots. If you have a person, well it will almost certainly depend on their ancestry as to whether there are complaints and where from. Grutness...wha? 01:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Is it possible to make stubs for Northern Cypriots as well? This could please both sides and you could use different flags for each so that neither side is shown any real sovereignty over the island much like the Israel and Palestine stubs. NYC2TLV 16:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Given current usage of {{Israel-geo-stub}}, and past "discussions" about {{Palestine-stub}}, that's not what I'd call an encouraging comparison. Alai 18:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I would suggest that we stick with one Cyprus-stub as we have done with Korea. Besides, I am not sure that a TRNC-stub would even meet the minimum levels.--Thomas.macmillan 18:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Palestine is a special case in that it is recognised by a fairly large number of countries. It doesn't really bear much comparison with the situation in Cyprus from that viewpoint. WP:WSS has a fairly consistent record of deliberately avoiding stub types for places such as TRNC due to their lack of recognition and the potential for NPOV problems (which is why there aren't stub types for places which are probably more readily comparable such as Chechnya, Kurdistan, Ossetia, and Somaliland. Grutness...wha? 23:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Provided we can avoid WWIII breaking out, I'll support a -bio (covering Greeks, Turks, Armenians, Latins, and Spaghetti Monsters) but {{Somaliland-stub}} was a bad idea and TRNC- will be worse. Iff we get a -bio template, people will try to add an image anyway, so I'd suggest we give it a neutral one from the start, like say, Zeno of Kition. Normally, I wouldn't be in doubt as to an upmerged -footy template, but there is the image issue as these templates normally use both a football and a flag. Iff we make one of these, just sticking with the football would probably be the best course. Btw, if / when we have enough material, the category names should be Cat:Cypriot people stubs and Cat:Cypriot football biography stubs Valentinian T / C 12:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
          • I don't know. Cyprus is recognized by UEFA and FIFA so taking the flag out of the image sounds a little silly. Arguments can be made that since the TRNC is not FIFA recognized that they can't be added. I mean every thing else related to UEFA competitions uses the Cypriot flag, why can't the players? NYC2TLV 14:54, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
            • You're right that UEFA, FIFA, and everybody else except Turkey and the OIC only recognize the Rep. of Cyprus. I don't love the situation I proposed above, believe me, I just don't like edit wars. Do we have any material at all about Turkish-Cypriot footballers? In other words; how big is the actual problem? There's got to be football clubs in North Nicosia, Famagusta and Kyrenia, but of course, if the players can't play in any major tournament, their notability might be a bit thin. Valentinian T / C 16:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
            • As I wrote earlier, a hand count revealed around 67 bio stubs in Cyprus-stub. I suggest we use the official flag of the Republic of Cyprus (the vast majority of TC's want to be united, anyway) and include both the TRNC and the RC under it, as well as the diaspora (where I am guessing most notable TRNC soccer players are)--Thomas.macmillan 18:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
            • I very strongly advise that the flag not be used. You might want to have a read of Template talk:Cyprus-stub, to start with, and I can point to a quite a number of other talk pages where that particular battle raged. Grutness...wha? 00:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{NE-England-School}} & Category:North East England school stubs

There are stub categories for regions such as Yorkshire and the Humber ({{Yorkshire-school-stub}}) but not for schools in the North East region.

Ideal articles:

Your thoughts? Computerjoe's talk 19:39, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

  • In theory this is definitely a good plan; I can't confirm whether it'll hit the threshold of 60, but it seems fairly likely (there is (or was) 13 UK-school stubs in the T&W cat, and it's diminishing returns from there, but undercatting is obviously at work). I'd suggest upmerged templates from {{Durham-school-stub}}, {{TyneandWear-school-stub}}, {{Northumberland-school-stub}}, etc, since those are how the permcats are organised, and more meaningful divisions than the regions in many respects. (Upmerged to the parent if the proposed category doesn't pass threshold, to the NE cat if it does.) Alai 01:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes to the category and upmerged templates, but I'm not that sure that we need an actual {{NE-England-school-stub}} (lower case "s", please!) though - we could just use the individual upmerged county templates. Grutness...wha? 01:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    Yep. Sounds good. However, other stubs follow the format of regions like {{Yorkshire-school-stub}}. Computerjoe's talk 20:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
    What the other regions do as a rule is to "templatise" by (ceremonial) county, upmerged to the regional cat. (I'd tend to agree with Grutness that regional templates are largely redundant, since it's fairly tricky for a school to be in two counties at once.) Yorkshire isn't a modern ceremonial county, granted, by it does correspond to a permcat (Cat:schools in Yorkshire), and conveniently avoids having to use templates like {{NorthYorkshire-school-stub}}, {{WestYorkshire-school-stub}} {{SouthYorkshire-school-stub}} {{EastRidingofYorkshire-school-stub}}. But it's not synonymous with the region (which also includes North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire), so I don't see it as a precedent for having a regional template instead of county ones (and not much of a case for having it as well). Alai 00:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    A problem is many areas of North East England fall within the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire. The category this uses is an official region of England.
    But it isn't how the permcats are organised, but rather by ceremonial county and unitary authority, which are just as "official", and considerably more significant. And in any event, additional per-UA upmerged templates such as {{Stockton-school-stub}} will take care of the strangely-regioned cases. Alai 19:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
    Very well. I doubt many articles would fall under UA templates. Computerjoe's talk 22:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2000s singles subtypes

Now over 800, these look pretty safe bets:

I won't try to give counts; not only is the data I have now about six weeks old, there's also much undercatting (the musicistas don't seem to be much into genre cats, so instead these languish until they get a "by artist" cat (which is then genre-ised in turn), which can take some time... Alai 05:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Support.Goldenrowley 15:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of SouthAfrica-geo-stub

I am proposing splitting the whole of Cat:South Africa geography stubs (presently around 850) into the provinces, Western Cape, Eastern Cape, KwaZulu Natal etc. I haven't done a hand count for all of them, but with the number so large, I forsee all meeting the recommended limits with most exceeding by far.--Thomas.macmillan 21:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Isn't that 650? You're probably right, but for the record, here's the permcat-based counts from the last dump:
    • KwaZulu-Natal_Province | 108 |
    • Western_Cape_Province | 86 |
    • Free_State_Province | 73 |
    • Gauteng_Province | 53 |
    • Mpumalanga_Province | 44 |
    • North_West_Province | 38 |
    • Limpopo_Province | 27 |
    • Eastern_Cape_Province | 20 |
    • Northern_Cape_Province | 18 |
  • That's something like 2/3 catting, so I'd guess only the bottom three are at all likely to need upmerging, and hence I'll support the first six on spec. Alai 21:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, with upmerging for the last three. Suggest names of {{KwaZuluNatal-geo-stub}}, {{WesternCape-geo-stub}} etc, with {{NorthWestZA-geo-stub}} for the one ambiguous one. Grutness...wha? 23:36, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • My mistake, I counted one page too many! There are approximately 180 more geo-stubs in the category now than during the last dump though. Amend proposal to support Alai and Grutness.--Thomas.macmillan 00:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, I should have said either 2/3 catting, or 2/3 articles-that-actually-existed then, or a combination of the two. It's possible there will be a fresh db dump Any Day Now(TM), in which event I'll give updated counts. Alai 00:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
      • What image should we use for the templates? Are there outlines of the provinces or any other interesting images for South Africa beyond the flag? Also, I am not sure of the formatting for these, so if someone could start them, I'd happily populate them.--Thomas.macmillan 21:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] baseball pitcher subcats

To un-upmerge the templates {{1960s-baseball-pitcher-stub}} and {{1970s-baseball-pitcher-stub}}, which seem to be well-populated now. But, without the WPJ messages, please! Alai 21:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Oppose changing template body, need wider consensus of removing mention of WPJ from all similar templates. Support de-upmerging alone. Monni 22:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't actually convassing opinion on that, just complaining in passing. It's been discussed before, and I'm fairly sure the consensus was to get rid of them. (I've been getting rid of them as I come across them, personally.) Come to that, it's rather implied by WP:STUB and WP:ASR. Alai 23:45, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Support but are the un-upmerged categories going to be a subcat of Cat:Pre-1980 baseball pitcher stubs or moved out to Cat:Baseball pitcher stubs and the first category renamed Cat:Pre-1960 baseball pitcher stubs (my preferrred option)
That latter would make more sense to me. Alai 19:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
comment Reading WP:ASR or WP:STUB doesn't convince me that WPJ specific additions to stub notices are discouraged. WP:ASR says it doesn't apply to stub notices and WP:STUB contradicts itself on stub layout guidelines. Only thing sure is that every stub creator is allowed (by first exception in WP:STUB) to use common sense when applying formatting to the stub template layout. Monni 16:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If you're telling me it's a "sure thing" that "avoiding self-references" means "add as many as you like", and that some alleged inconsistency in WP:STUB means that the whole thing is null and void, I can only assume you're taking advantage of "the day that's in it". Alai 22:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{Hawaii road stub}}/Cat:Hawaii road stubs

I'm been creating a couple of new Hawaiian roads as of late and I'm in the process of creating some more. Unfortunately, there's isn't any stub for Hawaii roads and I've been putting them under the US road stubs. I'm considering creating a Wikiproject for Hawaii roads to get people involved with the creation and formation of roads in the state of Hawaii so this is the first step to get the process going. If you need a image stub for the Hawaii road stub, ask TwinsMetsFan for assistance. Spongefan 17:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Please create the template at {{Hawaii-road-stub}}, per the stub naming conventions. Are there 60 of these at present? If not, upmerging to a regional category would be better for the time being would be better than a separate category. Otherwise, sounds sensible enough. Alai 21:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{electronic-band-stub}} / Cat:Electronic musical group stubs + {{Germany-electronic-band-stub}}

About 150 stubs (~600 stubs including children) according to StubSense, with 2 existing child stubs. Category name sounds weird, but that's what the child stubs already use. With my usual self-oppose I suggest upmerged template for Germany (about 40 stubs) just to make sure I can speedy it later if it gets the remaining stubs. If I would care about speedy proposals (usually I just create them out-of-procedure), I would use it in this case. Monni 16:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Juggling

I'd like to propose a category of juggling related stubs. Articles that could be tagged with it include Jason Garfield, World Juggling Federation, Thomas Dietz, Anthony Gatto, Luke Burrage, Ben Beever, Albert Lucas, Flash (juggling), Chops (juggling), Columns (juggling), Box (juggling), Reverse cascade. It would be especially nice to see this category as there is currently a controversy as to whether juggling is more entertainment or sport (or recreation etc), while all stubs could be neatly sorted into one juggling category. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 04:27, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Certainly sensibly scoped, but I'd wonder if there's enough existing stubs for a Cat:juggling stubs. I'd certainly have no objection to an upmerged {{juggling-stub}} template... but per your comment, I'm not sure where I'd suggest upmerging it to! (BTW, is there a wikiproject?) Alai 05:04, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Personally, I'd upmerge it into sports stubs. There's no wikiproject as yet. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Based on the current permcat parentage, I'd say it belongs under Cat:Culture stubs. Despite ESPN's efforts to turn everything into a competitive sport, juggling is more popularly considered to be entertainment or recreation than sport. However, if there are enough stubs to warrant a separate stub category, I wouldn't oppose adding Cat:Sports stubs as a second parent of Cat:Juggling stubs. Caerwine Caer’s whines 20:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
ISTR we at one time had a circus-skills-stub or similar, which at the time was deleted as not having enough stubs. perhaps it would be useful to reinstate it for juggling, acrobatics, and other similar performing arts? Grutness...wha? 23:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Just in case you're asking me: I'd be fine with any stub template that contains the word juggling, really. —KNcyu38 (talk • contribs) 05:49, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
According to stubsense, that would seem to just about be viable (as an upmerger target for the juggling stub template or otherwise). Alai 06:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{frog-stub}}/Cat:Frog stubs

Among the first 30 Amphibian stubs, found only a few which aren't about frogs (including toads, which are classified as part of Order Anura. Eli Falk 13:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Works for me; somewhat surprised there's no immediate signs of this having been proposed before. Alai 16:42, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Support the template but oppose the category, about 90% of all living amphibian species are in order Anura (frogs and toads) and there only about 500 stubs right now, so adding another stub category doesn't look like it would accomplish much. Suggest any potential category splitting at this time be done by family, judging simply by numbers of genera and results from Stub Sense, looks like the families Bufonidae (true toads), Hylidae (tree frogs), Leptodactylidae (tropical frogs), Microhylidae (narrow-mouth frogs), and Ranidae (true frogs) look to be populous enough to at least warrant a stub template and maybe a category depending on much they are understubbed and/or undercategorized. So to recap, start with templates {{Anura-stub}} (with redirect {{frog-stub}} or vice versa) and {{Bufonidae-stub}}, {{Hylidae-stub}}, {{Leptodactylidae-stub}}, {{Microhylidae-stub}}, and {{Ranidae-stub}} Caerwine Caer’s whines 19:39, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Oh yeah, that was the gist of the previous discussion on this topic. But if we're going to split out frog families at some point, an order-level parent category would then be only logical. Crunching the numbers from the Feb. db dump by permcat, for all the amphibians:
      • Come to that, if the frogs are going to be re-templatised by family, it would seem fairly reasonable to have the frog family templates feed into a Cat:frog stubs, but to skip the generic {{frog-stub}} template. Alai 20:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Note, the tree frog and toad permcats do not correspond to a single family. The old-world tree frogs have been split out to a separate family from the rest but that category contains both and the toad category by its own admission contains not just the Bufonidae, but also other frog species commonly called toads. The differences probably aren't enough to warrant not creating templates, but they do mean that I'm strongly opposed to creating a {{toad-stub}} and opposed (but not strongly or weakly, just opposed) to creating a {{treefrog-stub}}, even as redirects. I don't mind {{frog-stub}} since Anura itself is a redirect to Frog and there are several small families that will never have even 30+ stubs as there are fewer than 30 species in them. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Geology-stub split

Apologies in advance for the haziness of this proposal - I'm bringing it here for debate in the hopes that someone here can come up with something more solid.

I notice a lot of stubs which are both geology and geography - specifically, stubs for specific geological sites, such as Victoria Island structure. At the moment, a lot of them are double-stubbed with X-geo-stub and geology-stub, but I'm wondering whether a specific {{geology-site-stub}} might be better than the geology-one for the latter. That way, if there are enough of them, they could later be split on a by-continent or by-country basis. I have not done a count up of these, but I'd be very surprised if there aren't several dozen, at least. Grutness...wha? 01:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Doesn't immediately look like a permcat-follower, unless it can be mapped onto Cat:geomorphology in some manner. For which I think we've already discussed a stub type... Alai 03:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
    • There's Cat:Regional geology and all its "..by country" subtypes. Grutness...wha? 04:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
      • OK, that works for me. Ideally we'd echo that language in the stubcat name, at least (the template I'm fairly easy on). Alai 04:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of Egyptian people stubs

Templates and categories for: {{Egypt-politician-stub}}, {{Egypt-writer-stub}} (Haven't done a precise hand count, but definitely have enough). Just templates for: {{Egypt-footy-bio-stub}} and {{Egypt-mil-bio-stub}} (same as above but definitely do not have enough yet to justify a category)--Thomas.macmillan 18:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Backpacking-stub

I would like to propose a generall stub type backpacking-stub for use with WikiProject Backpacking that will hold and allow us to sort and categorize all stub-class articles in WP Backpacking. There are hundreds of stub articles that fit into this category, including:

  • The main problem as I see it is that either this or trail stubs is viable, having both seems a bit counterproductive - as you say, most of one would be in the other. Perhaps widening the scope of trail-stub to cover both trail walking and backpacking would be a better option than a completely new stub type? Grutness...wha? 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree that the cross-cutting across {{trail-stub}}, {{climbing-stub}}, and {{leisure-company-stub}} is a problem. That last, at just over 200 stubs is not in need of a split sizewise, but I could support an {{recreation-company-stub}} to make the companies there more likely to be relevant to WikiProject Backpacking. Caerwine Caer’s whines 00:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Suggest the use of {{hiking-stub}} as more comprehensive to both wilderness trails and backpacking. Leisure company is more like travel and leisure. Hiking and backpacking are more like sports. Goldenrowley 03:17, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Combining the suggestions above, I'd like to make the following amended proposal:

  1. create {{hiking-stub}} and {cl|Hiking stubs}}
  2. upmerge {{trail-stub}} into that and delete Cat:Trail stubs - at least for the time being.

That way, we don't have a nearly empty Hiking stubs category. if it looks like there are sufficient stubs on hiking that aren't about trails, per se, then we can always re-create that stub's own category later. The backpacking WikiProject would then have three different stub types and two categories (the other being the {{climbing-stub}}/Cat:climbing stubs combo) to look for articles in. We can also have a look at splitting leisure-comany-stub at a later date, if it grows some. Grutness...wha? 04:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you all. I was hoping to create a backpacking stub that could cover all sorts of relavent articles without the need for lots of different tags. This would provide an easy way for users to access many types of backpacking/hiking related stub data and really help the project out. If this remains the generall view, I will create it and perform the merger after the designated time (unless someone with more knowledge that will do a better job would like to do it). Leif902 22:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Support both hiking stub and category. Goldenrowley 03:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
As there seems to be support, I have gone ahead and created {{hiking-stub}} and Category:Hiking Stubs. If you want me to do more, ex. upmerge trail-stub, etc. you can contact me on my talk page as I probably won't check back here and am no longer watching the page. Please help improve it if you can. - Leif902 02:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Sorry if I violated a time limit, I wasn't sure if there was one (is there one?).

I've moved this to Cat:hiking stubs, per usual naming conventions, and adjusted the categorisation somewhat. Time is supposed to be five days, but if this is populable to 60 (or perhaps even 30, given the WPJ), I don't see any problems. Alai 04:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:The Gambia geography stubs

And another country reaches the 60+ mark - 74 stubs, in fact. This one has had a template for a while, and can now be de-upmerged. And yes, since the name of the country is officially The Gambia... Grutness...wha? 07:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support of course. Just wait until you see the number of geo-stub splits that I can propose in a week woo hoo!Aelfthrytha 12:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support for speedying I don't see a reason to wait for a category in this situation.--Thomas.macmillan 18:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pinball stub

There's more than 100 good stub articles between titles, manufacturers, individuals and other related articles. However the stub types currently associated with these articles are various uncoordinated types of video game categorizations. Pinball really is its own separate beast, and there is already a WikiProject Pinball that is growing slowly but steadily. Propose a pinball-stub category. Any objections? Fractalchez 21:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually that's 100 articles, both stub and non-stub in that category. StubSense reports 43 pinball-related stubs of which 16 stubs are for pinball computer/video games. In theory, everything pinball related should already have {{arcade-stub}}, since pinball games is a subset of arcade games. I'll admit that it would be nice to have a clearer separation between video arcade games and (electro-)mechanical arcade games, but given the relative numbers of articles and stubs, I think it might be more useful to create {{arcade-videogame-stub}} as part of a splitting off of the video arcade games so as to avoid having pinball and other gaming machines with mechanical action (such as coin-op pool tables) fall unintentionally into the video game hierarchy. Caerwine Caer’s whines 22:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Looking at it, that seems just fine. My main concern was just getting some semblence of standarization, since pinball machines are one of those things that don't fit all that well into other categories. But "arcade" covers it well. I may want to revisit this if/when the pinball pages actually grow to require it, but this well satisfies my current concerns. Much thanks. Fractalchez 20:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old business

Everything from here on down has passed the five day proposal period. Unless discussion to determine consensus is actively on-going, proposals may be acted upon, to be created, or noted as not approved. Move this marker up as time passes.

[edit] Illinois-geo sub-types

Parent is now oversized (Midwest states must be in season, or something), and these are growing too far to give sensible counts, but I'm pretty sure about the first three, at least. On double-stubbing alone the Chicago types is viable. The other four all all based on combined statistical areas, truncating as necessary to state boundaries (fairly drastically in the case of St. Louis, obviously. Alai 21:00, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

That last one might be better named Cat:Metro-East geography stubs since apparently Metro-East is the local name for that area, variously with and without the hyphen, tho the wiki article uses it. Caerwine Caer’s whines 22:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Excellent idea. It seems a bit variable as regards county membership, as well as hyphenation, but nothing a little explicit scoping statement won't prolong^Wcure. Alai 01:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of {{Indonesia-geo-stub}}

{{Jakarta-geo-stub}} plus cat. would take 125 articles with it out of this growing category which is nearing 800. Other counts available on request by province, island, etc. Aelfthrytha 16:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

While not exactly official regions, how would a split of Indonesia into Sumatra, Java, Lesser Sunda, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Moluccas, and Irian Barat work out stub wise? (leaving aside for the moment the thorny political issue of what exactly to call Western New Guinea) That would be a complete split and likely doable a lot sooner and easier than a provincial level split. Caerwine Caer’s whines 22:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
A reasonable idea - I've been wondering whether a Sumatra, Java, or Kalimatan split might improve this category a bit. Grutness...wha? 23:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Counts: Sumatra, 150; Java, 155; Nusa Tenggara, 81; Kalimantan, 40; Sulawesi, 49; Maluku Islands, 30; W. New Guinea (Papua & W. Irian Jaya), 27. I also have sub-counts by province for every single one - West Java has 53, East Nusa Tenggara has 50, no others cleared 40. Aelfthrytha 02:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I'd think cats per (top three at present) island/region, and templates per province would be the ideal "forward-looking" solutuion. Alai 02:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: Java and Jakarta still need separate templates and cats - Jakarta alone has 125, Java excluding Jakarta has 155. Agree with Alai, templates per province. Aelfthrytha 05:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pesticide stub

More than 60 stubs for this category - see here and here using CatScan. Coming under agriculture-stub and possibly chem-stub. Jeodesic 16:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bangladesh history stub

Bangladesh has around 2,000 years of documented history, and new pre-historical evidences has started to emerge. There also is long history that features diverse people like the Portuguese, English, Armenians, Rakkhaines, Manipuris, Arabs, Greeks, Persians and Afghans which may not feature on their respective homelands' history. Especially important is the fact that since independence Bangladesh had a very turbulent history that concerns mostly just Bangladesh and Bangladeshis. To coordinate all that now there's a Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Bangladesh, though it is yet really take flight. I propose for a Bangladesh history stub, like is a {{Bangladesh-geo-stub}}, a {{Bangladesh-bio-stub}}, a {{Bangladesh-edu-stub}}, and a {{Bangladesh-org-stub}}. Aditya Kabir 03:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • How many (existing) stubs within the scope of this proposed type? Alai 05:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • NONE. The nearest are {{Bangladesh-bio-stub}}, {{SAsia-hist-stub}}, {{India-hist-stub}} and {{india-royal-stub}}. Nowhere near good enough. Aditya Kabir 19:09, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I mean how many stub articles. Clearly there are applicable stub types, i.e. Cat:Bangladesh stubs and Cat:South Asian history stubs, and any {{Bangladesh-hist-stub}} should be upmerged there if it doesn't meet the size guidelines in WP:STUB. Alai 19:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Oh, there already is one. Why not use that on more than one article (ideally, 60), and then get back to us? Alai 19:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Upmerged template was created by me a while ago because it was on the to-do list. Currently it's part of SAsia-hist-stub and Bangladesh-stub. Aelfthrytha 01:15, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I think I got what I was looking for. Thanks Aelfthrytha for the template. Sorry, Alai, that I got your question wrong. The answer would be 68 stubs at the moment, and growing really fast (I may have overlooked a few). Even more sorry for not knowing there was one Bangladesh history stub cat already. But, it was not referred to on any page at all. Aditya Kabir 03:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of Cricket-bio-stubs

2 countries have passed the 60 article guideline and so I would like to propose:
{{Ireland-cricket-bio-stub}} / Cat:Irish cricket biography stubs (73 articles)
{{Canada-cricket-bio-stub}} / Cat:Canadian cricket biography stubs (63 articles)
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopia-athletics-bio-stub

Upmerged template has 63 articles propose Cat:Ethiopian athletics biography stubs
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] China-footy-bio-stub

There are 65 articles tagged with {{China-sport-bio-stub}} and {{Asia-footy-bio-stub}} so I propose {{China-footy-bio-stub}} / Cat:Chinese football biography stubs.
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UAE-bio-stub

While sorting through some of the sports categories i have noticed that some countries have enough articles for bio-stub templates which do not currently exist. The first of these is UAE. By my calculation there are 29 footballers, 19 cricketers, 7 other sportsmen and a quick look in politicians shows atleast 6. Making a category of over 60 people. So I propose {{UAE-bio-stub}} and Cat:United Arab Emirati people stubs
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Tentative support - I'm not so sure about the category name - all the other UAE stubs are United Arab Emirates stubs. Can we get some more comments on that? Aelfthrytha 03:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trinidad-(sport-)bio-stub

Just searching through athletics and football categories gave me over 60 articles relating to trinidad sportsmen & women. This would suggest a {{Trinidad-sport-bio-stub}} and related category however we don't yet have a {{Trinidad-bio-stub}} and i feel going straight to a sport-bio-stub maybe jumping the gun and that the bio-stub maybe of more general use
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

While neither Cat:Caribbean people stubs, Cat:West Indian cricket biography stubs, Cat:Caribbean boxing biography stubs, Cat:Central America and Caribbean athletics biography stubs, nor Cat:Trinidad and Tobago stubs is even close to being overlarge, I'd prefer creating {{Trinidad-bio-stub}} and {{Caribbean-sport-bio-stub}} first or at least at the same time as {{Trinidad-sport-bio-stub}}, simply to avoid the problem of having stubs skipping generations. Caerwine Caer’s whines 18:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
That is similar to what i meant but I don't know about {{Caribbean-sport-bio-stub}} as it would possibly give a national template a specific sport template and a third caribbean-sport template all on one page, not pretty. Waacstats 22:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bermudian sportspeople

We have 55 articles relating to Bermudian cricketers throw in a further 8 people from athletics and football and we have a {{Bermuda-sport-bio-stub}} category however we don't currently have a {{Bermuda-stub}} let alone a bio-stub as articles relating to Bermuda are currently tagged with {{UK-Atlantic-stub}}so how do we split this
{{Bermuda-stub}} / Cat:Bermuda stubs
{{Bermuda-bio-stub}} / Cat:Bermudian people stubs
{{Bermuda-sport-bio-stub}} / Cat:Bermudian sportspeople stubs
{{Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub}} / Cat:Bermudian cricket biography stubs
{{UK-Atlantic-bio-stub}} / Template:British Atlantic territory biography stubs
or some other way. Personally I feel that {{Bermuda-bio-stub}} would be the way to go as being of most use with an upmerged {{Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub}}
Waacstats 00:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

  • I'd go for both a Bermuda-bio-stub and a UK-Atlantic-bio-stub, even if the latter is upmerged. There are a lot of articles about Bermudian cricketers, it's true, but there are also quite a number of other articles about Bermudians (including, IIRC, one about a guy who is a local eccentric who goes out to wave to the traffic every day!). A UK-Atlantic-bio-stub would cater for the several Falklanders and St. Helenans (Helenians?) that no doubt have articles, and could either become a parent stubcat for the bermuda one, or simply be upmerged into the main UK_Atlantic cat. An upmerged Bermuda-cricket-bio-stub might also be prudent, since it will no doubt increase past threshold pretty soon (see also the Ireland and Canada noms above). I must admit that the "UK Atlantic" stubcats are a bit of a kludge anyway - there is no permcat parent, but there is also no easy way to separate these stubs out. Grutness...wha? 03:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support for Bermuda-stub, bio-stub, and templates for the rest.--Thomas.macmillan 18:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Can i just point out I wasn't proposing all just listing some possible splits. Waacstats 22:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethno/native/indigenous peoples stubs

As per discussion at WP:SFD, it's probably time to complete the stub types for ethnic groups, or at least native or indigenous peoples. we have some continent-level splits, but are missing several. Unfortunately, naming is not uniform, which makes for a problem. We currently have, at the continental level, {{Africa-ethno-group-stub}}, {{Asia-ethno-group-stub}}, and {{Euro-ethno-group-stub}}, but also {{NorthAm-native-stub}} and {{IndigenousAustralia-stub}}.

It would be useful to have stub templates for South America (SouthAm-x), Central America (CentralAm-x), the Caribbean, and Oceania. Chances are, all except the South American one would be upmrged, with a fully-fledged stub with category for South America. The question is, though, what should they be named? My personal preference is for all of them to be X-ethno-group-stubs (and with consideration made for changing the name of the two which don't fit this scheme), but alternative opinions are welcome - as is some indication of potential numbers of stubs. Grutness...wha? 10:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Support Template:SouthAm-Native-stub and Cat:Indigenous_peoples_of_South_America_stubs to mirror North American native stubbing. I think Central American is covered by Pre-Columbian, Mayan and Aztec. I think Carribean may be fine with just nbaming them Caribeans-stub. I'd opt out of "ethnic group" in America, as America has ethnic stock from all over Europe and Africa and Asia, the native people are disambiguated by using the words Native or indigenous or first nations in America. A Native American Wikiproject exists, so you can probably allow this as within scope of their Wikiproject with just 30-60 articles. I don't know enough on Oceania but it seems you can cover it with naming the ethnicities such as Polynesian. Goldenrowley 03:36, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
I did a little further research, we have Central America covered with {{Mesoamerica-stub}} and South American with {{pre-columbian-stub}} by its category. However I really like SouthAm-Native-stub for equality with NorthAm-Native-stub and because it allows for the people to have lived past the Pre-columbian time marker. Goldenrowley 09:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Addendum While this is receiving attention, could I add a rider template/stub for Uncontacted peoples? While not a geographic distinction, they truly are a special class of indigenous, distinct from incorporated groups. Most are in South America but some are in the West Indies, North America, and Russia.Yeago 17:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
On Yeago's addendum, uncontacted peoples, I checked it out and there are perhaps 10 of stub length there, the rest is a list of potential but unwritten articles. I have more research, the permcat for Americas Indigenous people is Cat:Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas if we just follow the perm cats we'd make the following for American indigenous people:
  • {{SouthAm-native-stub}} / Cat:Indigenous_peoples_of_South_America_stubs 50-100 at this time.
  • {{CentralAm-native-stub}} / Cat:Indigenous_peoples_of_Central_America_stubs
  • {{Caribbean-native-stub}} / Cat:Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Caribbean_stubs. However this may stub just 3 articles or so. Instead I suggest the ethnic group words are more useful: {{Caribbean-ethnic-group-stub}} / Cat:Caribbean-ethnic-group-stubs (noting the rational, few tribes in Caribbean on the other hand it has many diverse and distinct ethnic groups.)Goldenrowley 19:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Is that a yay or nay for uncontacted peoples? I believe there's lots of room for growth, as Brazil's estimates of the number of uncontacted tribes have near doubled over the past 5 years. However, information is slow to accumulate as researchers must be very careful in their methods. Human cultures that did not collide with the global Europeal expansion over the past 500 years are incredibly preserved examples of paleolithic man. I only suggest this because I feel that merely categorizing them as 'indigenous' is not a very useful distinction (many 'indigenous' are millionare casino owners >=).Yeago 18:19, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
My personal opinion would be nay for uncontacted people, we have barely enough for South and Central America as it is, and it would carve out and make the count even smaller. Goldenrowley 20:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok. Well for now maybe I can just make a category.Yeago 21:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The more I study it, Grutness, Ethnic is a valid category of each continent, while Native/Indigenous would be considered one subcategory of ethnic, not in the same tier but one subcategory of "American" or "Oceania" if you will - someone was always natives, other ethnicities moved in later (all around the World). So I'd think native and ethnic stubs are NOT exactly the same thing, so could coexist provided there are enough articles. In America there are lots of Natives to write about since they had lots of tribes and nations displaced. Goldenrowley 04:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, that's partly my point. The European and Asian categories are for ethnic groups, in that this is more inclusive, and can include things like "British Australians", which would otherwise have nowhere to go. Similarly, if these are only "native" North American, Caribbean, etc, then there is nowhere for groups like Acadians, Argentinian Welsh, etc to be put. Couple that with the problem in oceania that no-one is native in the strictest sense. In New Zealand, for instance, the Maori only arrived here about 900 years ago, and are only "native" by dint of being the first arrivals. And if you use that as your criterion, then you run into all sorts of other problems (Vikings become native Icelanders, for instance). For those two reasons, ethnic group is, IMO, a more useful way of splitting things than native peoples. Grutness...wha? 05:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and yet "natives' are not the same as ethnic, they are a sub-category of Ethnic -- in America there are over 1000's of tribes and nations and we have enough for stub of their own, nestled under ethnic as one subcategory (as in we have enough to subcategorize it already on the tribal levels).Goldenrowley 18:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Just in case I was not clear I think we can do both, its all compatible. Its not an either/or situation, I was looking at all the ethnic american stubs, then picturing it world wide. Goldenrowley 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Various airport sub-types

Asian airports are oversized, Europeans and US are getting that way. I'm going to suggest:

  • Cat:Texas airport stubs
  • Cat:North Carolina airport stubs
  • Cat:Nevada airport stubs
  • Cat:Kansas airport stubs
  • Cat:Arizona airport stubs

I'm not giving alleged counts, as the only numbers I have are manifestly very out of date. I first noticed the enormous number of China-geo-stubs that are airports, but that isn't reflected in the last db dump. (But I'll gaze in wonder that the Russians feature with at least 100 in both Euro- and Asia- types...) Instead, I'll just float these now, hope a db dump happens along before we're all that much older, and if not, just create upmerged stub templates and thereafter see what happens, until these pass threshold. Anyone turning up to say "why don't we completely ignore that the permcat is Cat:Airports in the People's Republic of China, and create it with some other scope entirely?", I wonder? Alai 05:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

As long as you don't give it the template {{China-airport-stub}}, I won't complain about the proposed stub category. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:45, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I'd suggest {{PRC-airport-stub}}. Alai 06:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split of {{Iran-geo-stub}}

This one is getting to about 800. Splitting {{Tehran-geo-stub}} would take off 84. I propose the template plus the separate category. Aelfthrytha 04:55, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Support I'd be surprised since there are only 30 provinces if there aren't some others large enough to warrant at least upmerged templates as well. Caerwine Caer’s whines 05:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
  • If we want to do upmerged, the best candidates in descending order would be: Esfahan (55), Fars (46), Khuzestan (39), West Azerbaijan (34), Mazandaran (33), Razavi Khorasan (32), and East Azerbaijan (31). If you'd like any other counts, let me know. I'm open to amending the proposal and have full and current count data as of this morning. Aelfthrytha 16:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks, Aelf; I'm not use on this one, since there's no permcatting of any use here. Apparently Iran used to have a smaller number of provinces, and the modern provinces are essentially split/promoted sub-units of those. Would there be any merit in splitting into those (maybe just using the modern names, hyphenated), with upmerged templates? Alai 17:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I tried to talk to Wikiproject Iran about this, but the people who replied to me simply insisted that the current provinces are the only subdivision of the country. They claimed there were no regions, etc that we could use as intermediate levels between national / provinical boundaries. Go figure. Aelfthrytha 03:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
        • I reserve the right to ignore 'em, at least in case of provinces with two-part names, where the second parts are all identical, and the first parts are "East", "West", "North", "South", etc. :) Alai 04:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{SouthAm-musician-stub}} and {{SouthAm-singer-stub}} / Cat:South American musician stubs

Don't seem to exist, would be catchall category for South American musicians that don't have more specific stubs, if there is not enough for own category for both, would suggest upmerging -singer-stub so atleast musician stub would be viable. Monni 23:15, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Works for me. Alai 01:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{asia-band-stub}} / Cat:Asian musical group stubs

European catchall stub was proposed elsewhere, so I suggest making one for Asia too. There is already {{asia-singer-stub}} and {{asia-musician-stub}}, so this one makes it step further. Monni 17:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Support, seems very logical. Alai 21:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support from me, too. Grutness...wha? 23:45, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:European musician stubs

Musicians oversized, no country seems to hit threshold, lumping by continent would give 93. (In this case, there's even a permcat: Cat:European musicians.) Africa is bubbling under in the 40s. Alai 03:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

  • strong support with usual caveat of making upmerged templates for biggest countries that don't have own category yet. Monni 12:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paleontology sub-types

I think these were mooted in passing on a previous occasion, but for clarity I'll air them here again. (Parent oversized again.) Alai 02:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Support. In fact, I think I may have suggested it last time. The reptile one will allow a natural parent for dinosaur-stub a(and hopefully stop people adding that template to pterosaurs, plesiosaurs, and ichthyosaurs). May have some problem with synapsids, though, since there are two schools of thought as to whether they were "real" reptiles or a separate reptile-like group. Grutness...wha? 04:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
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