Wikipedia:WikiProject Numismatics/Sandbox/Succession/Archive 2

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[edit] Eastern Africa

With the updated date for GEA rupie that I put in, I think this whole section is ready to go into the articles. What do you think? Ingrid 01:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I also confirmed that East African rupee started in 1906 with the coin catalog. And corrected the predecessor of EA shilling for Zanzibar to Zanzibar rupee. Somehow both of us overlooked this mistake. Also added ratio to British shilling/pound

Need a stub for Zanzibar rupee. --Chochopk 04:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Now that I look into it a little more, the Zanzibar situation seems complex (just from GFD, my favorite source for a quick overview). I'd like to understand the political situation a bit more. I'll do some research and get back -- do you know a good political geography reference? Preferably on the web, but I'd buy a book if you know one. I used to think I could do this succession stuff using what's already in Wikipedia, mistaking quantity of information for quality information. Ingrid 15:40, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Is East Africa ready to go? --Chochopk 14:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought so. I just wanted to confirm the dates on the switch from Italian lira to Italian East African lira, since TMMH has it as 1936 for Eritrea but 1938 for Ethiopia. I wanted to understand if that is an error or if it was introduced at different times in different areas. Unfortunately, this is one of the currencies that I can't find in SCWC (Gulf rupee is another). Under Italian Somaliland though, it shows an Italian Somaliland rupia from 1909 to 1924, replaced by Italian Somaliland lira for 1925 only. (Actually, in the index of currencies, it says that Somalia used a "lire" which I know is plural of "lira", but others are listed as "lira", so I don't know if sometimes there's such a thing as 1 lire. So, if you can figure out anything about these issues, let me know, otherwise I'll see what I can find on the web. Ingrid 00:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I definitely want to get these out. I'm still not completely satisfied with Zanzibari rupee. You put something about Kenyan coins. I asked "Would Kenyan coins before 1921 be East African florins? Or was there another currency in use there?" Ingrid 02:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

SCWPM says the earliest Italian East African lira was dated 1938. And sample image can be found here. Normally, the actual issue date is later or equal to the print date. The reverse is very rare. I cannot think of any example except the case where a commemorative millennium note was sold in 1999.

I don't think there is such thing as "1 lire". All the 1 lira notes I can find are "1 lira". I'm not sure what kind of index you were referring to, so I assume it's "coin denomination index". Mine lists Italy, San Marino, Vatican City under both lira and lire, while Italian Somaliland only under lire. The most plausible explanation is that there's never a coin in 1 lira value for Italian Somaliland (nor banknote).

Sorry if I overlooked some of your questions. As you know, there are a lot going on here. I got the part about Kenya coins being used in Zanzibar from TMMH. I believe that refers to the East African currencies, as there is really no "Kenyan currency" before 1966. By the way, a stub is created for Zanzibari rupee. --Chochopk 08:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I know it's easy to miss something. That's one reason I think it will be great to get this huge section out of here. I don't know why the Italian East African lira was so confusing to me before. It makes sense now. If you approve how I changed Zanzibari rupee, I think we're ready. Only let me add in Italian Somaliland rupia (my time is up right now -- time to play computer games with my daughter). Ingrid 17:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'm satisfied. I'm starting the move, leaving Zanzibari rupee and Italian East Africa rupia for your review (move them if you want, or I'll get them later, when you say it's time). Ingrid

Just a minor caveat, should we call it "Italian East African rupia" or "Italian Somali rupia" or "Italian Somaliland rupia"?. And we definitely need more stubs to make these links flow. We also need to start drafting boxes for Maria Theresa thaler and other commonly used currencies of the time. It would be best if we do this now when our memory/knowledge is still fresh. Could you review the part on Ethiopia and Eritrea? Oh, and one more thing, we need to push all the way back for those 2 countries, e.g. what comes before Abyssinian talari? --Chochopk 20:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course. I don't know why I called it Italian East African rupia. The coins say "Somalia Italiana" which is generally translated as "Italian Somaliland", so I guess it should be "Italian Somaliland rupia" or "Italian Somali rupia". I could go either way, although I think I'm leaning towards Italian Somaliland (since Somali sort of implies Somalia, but calling it Italian Somaliland instead of Italian Somalia seems like it was done arbitrarily anyway). What do you think?

Also, when I did my first succession box for EAshilling, I used "Somali somalo", which should match rupia whichever we decide.

While I agree that dealing with MTT and Indian rupee now might be wise, I really don't want to :( I've been wondering if it would be a good enough start to simply link to currencies that were used after, without trying to be as precise as with more modern succession boxes. That way, you get the information of which areas used them, but our job is much easier (and if we ever wanted to go back in and make it better, refreshing our memories would be easier).

I will look at Ethiopia & Eritrea now. Ingrid 22:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

They look great. I added a bit of info about Eritrea into the Ethiopian birr box, so that if someone was following the trail from EA shilling for Eritrea, they wouldn't be lost. As far as what came before the Abyssinian talari, it looks like MTT (from GFD). And I wonder if the reference in GFD to French franc is because of Djibouti, which is in the same region, and I've seen it referenced a few times, but have not looked into it at all. I think it was called French Somaliland for a time. Maybe I'll tackle that next -- because I don't have anything else to do :) Ingrid 22:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Fixed Italian East African rupia to Italian Somaliland rupia (let me know if you'd prefer something else). Somali somalo should probably also be changed to Italian Somaliland somalo. I think they should be the same, but could be talked into Italian Somali X, but probably not Somali X, although you could try. If you agree, I'll fix Somali somalo and what links to it. Ingrid 02:40, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree on the use of "Italian Somaliland rupia", as today's Somaliland's currency is called "Somaliland shilling". I started the boxes for MMT. I also want to start German mark and Ottoman currency. They are inevitable if we want to complete the Balkans. But I'm too tired. I worked 12 hours today. --Chochopk 09:41, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German East African rupie

TODO: look up the coin catalog for early 1900's

29th edition (2002) shows coins from 1890-1916. I'm updating the box to show 1890. It also talks about German East Africa as Tanganyika only (in the section on Tanzania), and mentions the following dates: controlled area in 1884, protectorate 1891, colony 1897. They are a great source for the coins themselves, but their history is sometimes a bit fuzzy (different places in the book may have different dates even though they're talking about the same thing). The section on Rwanda says that it was "discovered" 1894, and became part of GEA 1898. The Burundi section mentions "the 1890s" as the date of joining GEA. GFD for each of Rwanda/Burundi/Tanganyika splits into two rows, one for 1890-1906, the next for 1906-1916, but all the codes for both rows are the same (they also did that for Mozambique in 1975 which is when the metica was considered as a replacement currency but not adopted, so something may have happened then which didn't change the currency) Ingrid 01:07, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

box moved to German East African rupie

[edit] East African rupee

See East African rupee
box moved.
Note: around this time, 1 rupee = 1 florin = 2 East African shilling = 2 British shilling

[edit] East African florin

See East African florin
box moved.
Note: around this time, 1 rupee = 1 florin = 2 East African shilling = 2 British shilling

[edit] Zanzibari rupee

Can we replace the sentence of concurrent currencies with specific currency links? Ingrid 03:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Some sources on Zanzibar political history:

GFD says:
Tanzania (Zanzibar) used Zanzibari rupee 1908-1936
Zanzibar Sultanate used Zanzibari ryal 1883-1890
Tanzania (Zanzibar) used Indian rupee 1890-1936
British Zanzibar used Indian rupee, Maria Theresa thaler, Zanzibari rupee 1890-1936
British Zanzibar used EA shilling 1936-1964
I don't know what Tanzania (Zanzibar) refers to. The zanzinet site I found explains how the Sultan and British basically ruled at the same time until 1890, so that part makes sense. I didn't find tables of monetary history helpful. SCWC says that Zanzibar was the name of the sultanate which included the Zanzibar and Kenya protectorates, and also the name of part of British East Africa. Independent of Oman in 1860 and under British control 1890. Independent 1963. It doesn't show the Zanzibari rupee, just the Zanzibari ryal, with only 1908 date (and only cent, 10 cents, 20 cents). Also, I see that the Tanzanian shilling is actually a shilingi (singular and plural). Kenya and Uganda were both shilling. And I thought this stuff was done. I'm not sure what to do with the Zanzibar stuff I found. My inclination is to ignore the Tanzania (Zanzibar) stuff since I don't understand it, and incorporate the rest. What's your source for the Kenyan coins. Ingrid 17:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe the Zanzibar coins listed in the SCWC are subunits of rupee, not ryal. Both SCWC and GFD Excel data say 1 ryal = 136 pysa, and 1 Zanzibar (not Indian) rupee = 100 cents.

According to these sources, it seems to be conclusive that

Indian rupee was used between 1890 - 1907.
Maria Theresa thaler also used 1890 - 1907.
Zanzibari ryal used beween 1883 - 1890, which = 2 INR

Some questions unanswered

Was Indian rupee still used after Zanzibari rupee was issued in 1908?
Was MMT used outside of the period 1890 – 1907? The Table also includes use of MTT from 1883 - 1890, while GDF includes 1908 - 1936.

Regardless of the answers, it should not affect the table below. It would only affect the crazy table of INR above. Should we call this currency Zamzibari rupee? As it is the adjective form of Zanzibar. I use 2004 edition of SCWC, for 1901-present. --Chochopk 06:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Is it rial or ryal? GFD uses y. I've switched Zanzibar -> Zanzibari, and will try to incorporate everything we know into this table. I am not confident about the changes I've made, so please check them and change as needed (also changing EA shilling). Ingrid 17:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Looking through the monetary history table for Africa (which I don't often use because I don't like the format, but I realize it's a great source, and now that I'm getting used to it, I like it more), it mentions that the EA currency board was responsible for Eritrea and Ethiopia (also former Italian colonies) during and after WWII. What a mess! Ingrid 17:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Would Kenyan coins before 1921 be East African florins? Or was there another currency in use there?

Searching GFD for XEAS (EA shilling) shows that this is it.

box moved to Zanzibari rupee Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abyssinian talari

box moved and Abyssinian talari stub created (it's a really bare stub). Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethiopian talari

Notes from TMMH (regarding Ethiopia and Eritrea politics, haven't gotten to the money yet -- not incorporated below):
(strike out below = taken care of)
Ethiopia

Political
- Ethiopia independent until May 35, conquered by Italy and joined to Italian East Africa
- ~~taken by UK Apr-May 41~~
- unclear when independent
Currency
- monetary union with Eritrea 15 Sep 52
- MTT used from about 1800
- Ethiopian money from 1906 (GFD says 1893 & calls it Ethiopian silver talari)
- Italian East African lira 1936
- after capture by UK, EA shilling introduced, MTT, Indian rupee, Egyptian currency legal tender. Indian rupee may have ceased to be legal tender around 1942.
- 1945, Ethiopian dollar introduced.
- dates from GFD: MTT 1800-1945, ES talari 1893-1936, IEA lira 1936-1941, EA shilling 1941-1945. No mention of Indian rupee or Egyptian currency. Does mention French franc, 1908-1928, no explanation.
- ~~TMMH: 1945-now: Ethiopian birr (Ethiopian dollar)~~
- Wiki & Catalog: Ethiopian dollar 1945-1976, English translation change to birr in 1976 (I tried to decode the Amharic alphabets on the notes before and after 1976. Both seems to be "birr" in Amharic, which I believe looks like "∩C" )

Eritrea

Political
- Italy held Eritrea from sometime in the 1800s (1889 is when Ethiopia recognized Protectorate).
- ~~Eritrea taken by UK in 41~~
- ~~Eritrea controlled by UK until monetary union of 52~~
- ~~Wiki & CIA: In 1952, a United Nations resolution to federate Eritrea with Ethiopia went into effect.~~
- ~~Independence 1993~~
Currency
- MTT widely used since 1790
- Italian Eritrean tallero 1890-1898, not widely accepted (at par with MTT but not same silver weight)
- ~~Italian lira 1922-capture~~
- used Egyptian pound and EA shilling after capture
- Italian money demonitized 1942
- Indian rupees no longer legal tender in 1942
- Egyptian pound phased out (no date)
- ~~used Ethiopian money starting 52~~
- ~~GFD says used Ethiopian dollar starting 1945 (other dates don't match TMMH, but I trust TMMH more)~~

box moved and stub article created. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian East African lira

Note: where does the ca. 1938 date come from? It's listed as 1936 for Ethiopia. Probably the same for all of IEA, no?

TMMH: The Banca d'Italia issued Italian lira notes from its Mogadishu branch. It was reduced to pure central banking business in Italy in 1938 but was allowed to continue commercial banking overseas (Italy, Law No. 141, 7 March 1938; Law No. 636, 7 April 1938, cited in Banca Nazionale Somala annual report 1960/1961: 165). The Banca d'Italia made special issues of lira notes for Italy's East African colonies dated from 14 June 1938-14 January 1939 (Italy, act of 8 August 1938, cited on the notes themselves). under Monetary authorities: Italian Somaliland and united Somalia. Earliest banknote listed in SCWPM: 1938. --Chochopk 15:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Somaliland rupia

box moved and stub article created. Ingrid 21:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] East African shilling

See East African shilling

What do you mean by "(Aden) Indian independence from United Kingdom in 1951"? --Chochopk 15:00, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I thought I'd replied to this already -- must have gotten cleared by DS. Anyway, what I meant was that when India became independent, the Indian rupee was no longer a British currency, and thus was no longer used in British colonies. I think I read that in Wikipedia somewhere. Perhaps on one of the Aden pages. That doesn't make sense though, since the Indian rupee was used elsewhere after independence. I need to find where I read that and fix it. I've taken it out below. Ingrid 19:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

See also Yemeni rial and Yemeni dinar. I'm still having trouble figuring out what was going on, with Aden especially (politically, not just as far as currency goes). It seems every time I read something new, I learn something new. Like the fact that there wasn't really an Aden Protectorate. There was an East Aden Protectorate and a West Aden Protectorate (which the Aden Protectorate article mentions, but I'm still not sure it's right to talk about one protectorate). Although that seems to be done with other protectorates as well -- like when I was reading about Zanzibar and couldn't keep the protectorates straight. Here's another source (not that it says anything new about Aden): http://www.al-bab.com/yemen/soc/banknotes2.htm I guess this is the best we can do, but it bothers me to feel like it's not really right (especially since it wasn't that long ago).

I did not verify the correctness on the political situation on Aden (1951-65). I trust that you will do a good job. I did, however, verify the others. I will have to allocate some time on Gulf ruppe, as I haven't started looking at it at all. --Chochopk 07:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Any thoughts on Ahmadi rial vs. Imadi rial? See my discussion with Dove1950 on talk:Yemeni rial. I don't know how the currencies should be named, and would appreciate your thoughts. Ingrid 00:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

box moved to East African shilling