Wikipedia:WikiProject Bosnia and Herzegovina/Čaršija/Archive 2

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I suggest that you put the "zlatni ljiljan" on the coat of arms because that is the simbol of BiH. Thunderman 11:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

We could argue all day whether that is Bosnia's symbol, or the Bosniaks symbol, but it's all moot. The thing is, it's perceived as a Bosniak-only symbol, and we should be striving to include as many people as possible in this project, not turning them off it. --estavisti 17:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Estavisti:

It was king Tvrtko who made "Ljiljan" to a symbol of Bosnia, then Kingdom of Bosnia. He did it, and he was a "bosnjanin", a bosnian who was a christian.

This mean that liljan cant be seen as a muslim symbol, it can only bee seen as a Bosnian symbol who other people dont like.

Ljiljan will allways be a symbol of Bosnia. You must know that Estavisti!

Wheather its a part in the Bosnian flag, wheather its a part in the Federation flag like it is now, that doesnt matter. Everyone know that Liljan is the true symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it will be the true symbol in all real Bosnians heart.

And Btw, it is not just bosniaks who worship ljiljan, look at Zeljko Komsic! Thunderman 21:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This is a difficult subject to "play" with. I bet this is how it goes:

If the Ljiljan is placed, then other ethnic groups get upset.

First and foremost, the "ljiljan" (lily), as stated above, is not a sign of Islam. It was the sign of Bosnia during the time of King Tvrtko, who was a catholic himself, but a true Bosnian since he fought for BiH, making its borders spread all the way to Zadar on the Croatian coastline. The coat of arms depicts the lilies that flourish in Bosnia along with a white sword in the diagonal position (The white line), which is the sword of Tvrtko. The issue here is that others have associated this as being solely a symbol of Bosniaks; however, this emerged due to the attempt to eliminate Bosnia off the map by some extremist groups during the war. This is how the true coat of arms started to be depicted as an Islamic symbol.

I do not need anyone arguing about what was stated above.

Next, I also see that the current coat of arms has to be placed since it is "the" current-day coat of arms of BiH.

What do you guys, suggest we do? A vote? Something else? Let's settle this dispute? Vseferović 01:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

All I said was, this proposal will lead to pointless disputes, which will waste time which could be better spent editing Bosnia-related articles. That's exactly what's happening. Who really cares what the logo is? Do we even need a logo? We're meant to be writing an encyclopaedia here. --estavisti 11:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I didn't say the ljiljan is a Islamic symbol, I said its perceived as a Bosniak symbol. --estavisti 11:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that we keep the coat of arms of todays Bosnia and Herzegovina and PUT ALSO the ljiljan symbol right to the todays coat of arm. This will show Bosnias coat of arm and a real symbol of Bosnia next to it. Cause, honestly... nobody in BiH is seening the today coat of arm or the today flag as a symbol of BiH.

My suggestion is that we put both the today coat of arm and the liljan.

On this way, nobody can bee hurt. Thunderman 15:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well don't imagine I love the BiH coat of arms. If you insist on something that has become an exclusively Bosniak symbol, why shouldn't I insist on CCCC or a Croat on the šahovnica? I repeat, I don't see why this project needs any symbols at all, especially as they're just another needless source of disputes. --estavisti 18:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Estavisti:

Someone who really loves Bosnia, he or she will accept ljiljan as the only true symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina. You are not a Bosnian, or you are not a REAL Bosnian, maybe you are a bosnian but not a real bosnian.

Everyone born in BiH is bosnian wheather you like it or not. But you are not a Real bosnian and because of that, you have no right at all to say what is the right symbol of Bosnia.

Ljiljan is the symbol of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Period. Thunderman 20:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Listen, I understand the dispute, but it is Bosnia after all. The Constitutional court of BiH said that the coat of arms of RS is illegal for Bosnia since it depicts symbols outside of BiH. Seriously, C-c-c-c is part of Serbia and never was part of BiH. Now is some nationalistic people want to inflict it upon Bosnian society, then it still cannot be viewed as Bosnian.

Whoever, lives, works, gets educated, has a BiH passport is Bosnian whether or not they want to admit it. If a person lives in Bosnia and does not feel Bosnian, but has BiH citizenship, then he or she should get out of the country and renounce any citizenship. Let real Bosnians live in Bosnia.

Also no one should say there are no othodoxs (Serbians) and catholics (Croatians) that do not feel Bosnian.

However, I do not see that we should put the ljiljan on. What do you say about the 1500 Tvrtko coat of arms instead of the 1992 coat of arms? Thanks, Vseferović 21:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the coat of arms of 1992. BUT, I wouldn have anything against it to put the 1500 coat of arms. This certainly cannot upset anybody.

If you can make the 1500 coat of arms, then you will have my support. Thunderman 21:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

There you go, I have implemented the Ljiljan from, Tvrtko. I hope that this does not cause any disputes:

For:

• Vseferović

Against:

Comments:

I'm not going to get into these disputes about the symbol (both of which I still say should be deleted), but I'm disappointed in you Vernese, I thought you were one of the few normal Bosniaks here. Obviously with a statement like "if a person lives in Bosnia and does not feel Bosnian, but has BiH citizenship, then he or she should get out of the country and renounce any citizenship." from you, basically supporting the ethnic cleansing of Serbs and Croats, I can no longer contribute to this Wikiproject. With your talk of "real" Bosnians you sound just like a certain politician who talks about "true" Croats. I tried to make a fair shot at contributing here, but I see that there's no point attempting to cooperate when you (and others) just see that as a sign of weakness. Ћао, болан. --estavisti 00:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Listen, do not look at me this way. It is not easy for me to keep a neutral viewpoint and most of the time I do try to "keep my cool down". If this is an issue I will take the coat of arms down. But you have to be open minded, since it is Bosnia after all. (I have said that comment 100 times). All people are welcome in BiH, however, those who systematically work against the nation and spread their nationalistic ideas should leave, no matter what side they are on. One has to know the pain and suffering I have to keep in me knowing that BiH is still not a unified nation. Why can't all Bosnians, Croatians, Serbians, get along? I did not imply with that comment that I want Croatians and Serbs out; I wanted to explain that one has to appreciate the nation they are living in. People, even Muslims Western Bosnia, cannot just try to make BiH more divided. Religion does not matter, the unity of the nation matters. You have to understand Bosnia was never divided in history. Since Tvrtko and even before and after we were a nation. We had Serbians and Croatians even back then and got along fairly well. I do not hate Croatians or Serbians and I have never stated this and never will. (Those that have done war atrocities of course I detest), but as a nation and people I do not hate them. I did not want to disappoint you. Vseferovic 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

For everyone else, this has caused a lot of disputes. It ends here. Vseferović 01:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Vseferovic:

I also vote FOR ljiljan of 1500. It cant be seen as controversial cause its a symbol from the medieval times. Thunderman 07:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... I am most definately for adding the Bosnian lillies - that's the symbol of everything Bosnia represents; be Serb Land of Bosnia, Croat Realm of Herzeg-Bosnia or Islamic Bosniacia. :) However, since this is a WikiProject of BiH, I think it should have the national symbols of all three nations - representing the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I know that this isn't in the article because Kseferovic prefers a united Bosnia-Herzegovina, and although there is nothing wrong with that, reality must be accepted. --PaxEquilibrium 08:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

PaxWquilibrium:

The thing is that the symbol of the Croats and Serbs have nothing with BiH to do cause that is NATIONALISTIC symbols. The liljan on the other hand, is a symbol not only for bosniaks, but for everyone who is seeing himself as Bosnian. Because of that the ljiljan is the symbol of BiH and therefore it should be added.

If now the current lily flag, the 1500 flag should be added. Thunderman 10:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I FORMALLY now suggest that we kick out Estavisti from the project.

Reason: Ultra nationalistic serb who doesnt have anything to do with the project. Thunderman 11:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Estavisti has already left the project due to the coat of arms issue. I understand and have never declined the fact that RS and FBiH exist. However, one must work for the betterment of Bosnia. BiH is not as divided as people think. Yes, the entities have some individual rights, but the outside world controls most of these decissions. I mean Dodik can say that he wants independece when after all, due to the signing of Dayton, it cannot occur. My point here is, in these elections more parties that will help BiH rise to the top have been chosen. All of the nationalistic ones are losing votes. The nationalistic one want one another to win in order to keep themselves alive They live of each other and this is a fact. Vseferović 21:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Now we have 1 serb less than before! Time for celebration... oh yea!

Seriously... now we have the opportunity to make lily the coat of arm beside the current coat of arm in the Wikiproject Bosnia and Herzegovina.

As you said before, lets put the 1500 lily insteed of the current one.

Deal? Thunderman 21:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yea! Ludiloo je pocelo!

Thewanderer has left this project! Now we got rid of one nationalistic serb (Estavisti) and one nationalistic Croat (Thewanderer)... its good for the project!

Btw... I can easily fix a couple of Bosniaks to the project. Just wait 3 or 4 days and we will have at least 6 new members in this project! Thunderman 21:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, go ahead and rejoice. I am already looking forward to the quality articles you will produce without us, Thunderman. --Thewanderer 21:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is this?!?! We are losing people. This is unacceptable. Thunderman please refrain from spreading nationalistic views. We need as many people to contribute to this project. I suggest that ideas involving the degradation of other ethnic groups should stop. The way it has started, by tomorrow HRE (PaxEq...) will leave our project, leaving us with inactive users. Thank you (WP:BiH Headmaster) Vseferović 22:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I understand your views and I am a Bosniak, but I cannot see this continue. We all have to work together in this. Do not get me wrong we do not have to impose "Brotherhood and Sisterhood" but at least accept one another as cooperative users. This is Wikipedia and not a simple blog on line that anyone can edit. We have some curtsey here, to write good quality and respect one another. I do not see how "The wanderer" showed nationalistic views. Why would you rejoice? Vseferović 22:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I announce the abandonement of this WikiProject. This has nothing to do with the rather good Project itself or its brilliant Father, but to the remarks of some of its contributors on this talk page. I may return if I have enough time, but this kind of attitude is damaging to me, the one who releases it and to this WikiProject itself. Selam alejkum i Bog! --PaxEquilibrium 19:53, 23 October 2006 (UTC)