Template talk:White American

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I don't see the Huguenots. Superslum 23:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why does this template exist?

According to whom are these groups "White Americans"? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preexisting articles and projects on this subject

There is already Template:Ethnic groups and Category:Ethnic groups in the United States among others. As with "Historical definitions of race", I think a category is less obtrusive and allows more thorough coverage.

"White American" is going to give rise to more unproductive debates on "who is white?", "is race legitimate?", etc. of the type we have seen elsewhere.

Dark Tichondrias, have you considered participating in a project like Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups? Discussion there might help you cover the subject better. --JWB 01:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

As for as categorizing and segmenting immigrant groups, there are a number of dimensions to consider: phase of immigration, motivation for emigration, geographical origin; ethnicity is a bit more problematic. --Leifern 01:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by problematic. I'll just say that Category:Ethnic groups in the United States (how do you link to this without having the link drop to the bottom of the page?) already exists with 99 pages and 8 subcategories, and subsumes the subject matter of this template, without controversy about race (looks like several have already broken out on this template within a couple of hours!) --JWB 01:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American Jews

American Jews are not necessarily European, nor are they necessarily "White", whatever that means. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

See the 1999 book How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America by Karen Brodkin Rjensen 02:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That's true for some Jews, I suppose, though not for Black Jews, and even then it shows how fluid the definition of "White" is. Now, how about the members of the B'nai Yosef Synagogue, who are from North Africa and Syria? In what way are they "European"? What about the hundreds of thousands of other American Jews whose ancestors hail from North Africa, the Middle East, or Iran? You keep assuming American Jews are some monolithic group that they simply are not. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Middel easterners are considered White by this Template. We have a major book explaining that American Jews are White--perhaps Jayjg can cite some sources that say otherwise but until then they need to stay as "white"....Rjensen 03:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you'll need to cite a reliable source that supports your claim that "American Jews" are "White", but you won't find any, since Jews, American or otherwise, aren't a "race". --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 09:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Middel easterners are considered White by this Template." - see WP:NOR. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 04:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with humus, that is not the normal definition of white, it really isn't up to you to just invent your own definition and say everyone has to stick to it.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 06:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

let's cut the antisemitism, please. For sources look at the 1999 book How Jews Became White Folks and What That Says About Race in America by Karen Brodkin. What sources do people have that denies this????? only blind antisemitism, I fear Rjensen 09:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you cite an actual quote from the book that authoritatively claims Jews are of one particular "race"? That book only appears to make anecdotal observations about some people's racist perceptions. Meanwhile, would you also explain what exactly is antisemitic about the existence of black Jews, Asian Jews, etc? --MPerel ^{( talk | contrib)} 11:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Race? what has race got to do with this? Erhnicity is a social construct, as the term "American" clearly indicates. Or maube the Dutch are now a race???? Rjensen 18:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Rjensen, it seems that your convictions are based on one controversial book. You either misunderstand or intentionally misuse the term antisemitism. Consider this a warning and stop now. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The Brodkin book is a great read, and fascinating. But it really only deals with Jews who, eventually were able to "pass" as white folks, i.e. those who, having shed the peas or yiddish accent, appeared more or less "caucasian" or "european" or however you'd like to describe it. While true that Middle Easterners are often considered "white" in the chromatic sense in this country, you put a turban and a beard on one, for example, and the social status of their "whiteness" is, unfortunately, quickly usurped, and replaced with assorted stereotypes and epithets. I think it makes sense to include two points: 1. that typically ashkenazi and some lighter-skinned sephardi and mizrahi Jews are considered white today, but were not always, just as Brodkin mentions Italians, Irish, etc, who were not always white. and 2. that whiteness is much more complicated that melanin, and is bound up in the social, political and economic questions in the times in which it is considered. Gershonw 01:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

How do you shed peas? Tomer^talk 16:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/) classifies Jews of European descent as White. Also, the Template:White American included Arab-Americans, another Semitic people. -- Dcflyer 19:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

That's only peripherally interesting, since, as this article quite clearly indicates, that term applies w/o consideration to the ancestry of American Jews, "European" or otherwise. In fact, as an "argument", that refutes rather than supports the inclusion of American Jews in this now-deleted template. That aside, I'm still curious how you shed a pea. Tomer^talk 21:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the US Census equates European ancestry with whiteness, but for what it's worth they have nothing to say on Jews in particular. If anything, the census form implicitly discourages noting of ethnicity as separate from country-of-origin, and by far most American Jews check the Russian box or something similar.--Pharos 22:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Peas is the ashkenazi pronunciation of peyot, the sidelocks that some Hasidic Jews wear. As for peas, I think they're only good for eating. Gershonw 21:45, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

bleh. I read "shed their peas" and couldn't for the life of me imagine what that meant. I've heard that ridiculous [;-)] "payess" pronunciation before, but I guess I've never seen it written oot. Tomer^talk 23:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)