Talk:Wheel

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[edit] Proto-Indo-European

It's been some time since I cracked a linguistics text book, so I could be wrong on this. Proto-Indo-European was never actually spoken by any culture. It is a theoretical language which has been contructed by linguistic typologists and historians by looking at groups of modern languages and then imagining what the common origin of them might have been. To say that the word 'wheel' (or any modern word) derives from it is inaccurate. This statement should probably be revised --Paul Cnudde

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.176.55.40 (talk) 14:32, 31 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] spherial wheels

Wha tabout these? They have no entry, no matter how small in this article... Why? They are a special variation seen in some furniture...

[edit] a lot

I agree in that it may be likely that many ancient civilisations would used implements like wheels around the same general period but documented evidence may say otherwise.

I'm going to make some changes again based on my view that the page should be about the wheel as an aid to transport, and that other (different) things called wheels should be kept separate to avoid confusion.

Also I will change (my own) explanation of how the wheel works.

The wheel is often viewed as the quintessential invention, and was most likely invented in all ancient civilizations, although not always used.

How true is this? From what I know, wheels as means of transportation were invented around the middle east around 4000 BC and spread outward from there. The concept is neither as obvious as one might think, nor as useful (eg without roads slider bars do a better job moving heavy things around).

Where is the evidence of South American wheels?

There are wheeled things we suppose to be TOYS - wheeled dogs in Mexican contexts, wheeled Llamas in Incan. The usual reason given for the failure ot use them on carts is that usable roads would have been too hard to build or too uncommon, which I for one buy for the Andes but not for Central Mexico. --MichaelTinkler

Also - I've added a bit about how wheels transform forces, and I think that when one talks about a wheel as a simple machine it is that that one is referring to, not the transformation between linear and rotary motion (which is really a special case of a friction gear when you think about it). Should this maybe be changed?

Yes it should! Apart from being gobbledygook it should be on a page called Wheel and Axle. I'm about to try and make this change. hope it works.

Aw, come ON people! Someone must have something to say of the history of the wheel! I had an exceedingly short go, but that was deemed inappropriate even though i framed it rather diffusely. A more fact filled history must be out there somewhere. Or are we inventing the wheel again? :-) --Anders Törlind

I'm all for history and don't object to the circa 4000 BC part at all for 'earliest commonly recognized,' and then let other cultures invent it for themselves in a dependent clause. --MichaelTinkler

I got rid of the "third-most-important invention after language and fire clause," because language was never "invented" by humans. --Alex S 04:27, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Language not an invention? Are theories inventions? Are World Views inventions? Is a metaphor an invention? An analogy? What would you call them then? So far as I am concerned a metaphor or analogy is clearly an invention. Aren't they clearly based on the invention of language? -- Geo Swan 02:24, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Am I the only one that finds is strange that the only external links are to bacteria pages? (valid though that may be) Seems very unbalanced. The whole notion is a bit dodgy, the wheel in question is more like a cog which I suppose is type of wheel but... Also, did bacteria really invent the wheel, that's like saying an animal invented the brain, bacteria may have evolved the cog wheel but not invented it. I'd really like to take the whole reference out, it's cute but not appropriate --Bob Palin 02:39, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Recent" (april 2002) excavations in the Ljubljana (which lies in Slovenia) marsh have brought up a wheel with an axle that is dated somewhere around 3250-3150 a.Chr.n (=BC). --Matija Šuklje, 16 Oct 2004

[edit] Notice of intention to overhaul

I find this description of the wheel to be very lacking. The writer seems to think that dry equations actually impart a real knowledge of what is happening mechanically. Far from it. Also, the history section was much better about a year ago. I'm planning a total rewrite. If anyone has much to say for this version, please speak up in the next few days. JDG 05:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

JDG, I agree with you that the article could use a good overhaul. One thing which comes to mind for inclusion, is a counter to the view commonly expressed or implied that societies which lacked significant use of technology associated with the wheel are thereby deficient in some regard, and that the possession of wheel-based technologies necessarily confers some crucial advantage over those without it. Many (primarily non-academic) references overplay this distinction.

As an efficient transport technology, the wheel requires not only the axle and vehicle chassis, but a suitable domesticated draught animal for propulsion, not to mention suitable terrain. Such animals were completely lacking in the pre-Columbian Americas, pre-colonised Australia, etc., and failure to explore this technology further should hardly be surprising. Even so, many impressive civilisations and edifaces were constructed without its substantive aid, such as the Egyptian pyramids, Mayan, Aztec, Zapotec and Inca cities, Great Zimbabwe, the Easter Island statues, etc etc.

A case could be made that applications of the technology, such as for chariots in warfare, provided an advantage to the possessors (eg, Hittites v. Egyptians). However, whilst undeniably a substantial and largely beneficial technology, the extent to which it has aided the development of those who employed it will need to be mapped out with some care. --cjllw | TALK 02:22, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

[edit] Authentication for The Iranian wheel picture

In reply to Dab's objection that the spoked Iranian wheel dated in the 2nd Millenium BCE may not be authentic, to his request, I visited National Museum of Iran, and took the 3 pictures below.

The wheel in display at the Museum

Zooming in on the Label

The Label of the wheel.

The curator of the museum verified that the spoked wheel's date had been determined by Carbon dating among other techniques, and that it had been excavated in Susa. The wooden parts of course were added for display. But the rest is made of an alloy of Copper and Tin.--Zereshk 14:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Zereshk, I asked because you had labelled the wheel "2000 BC". Now of course you realize that "late 2nd millennium" means "just before 1000 BC", i.e. almost 1000 years younger. That date is completely unproblematic and I accept it without batting an eyelid. It isn't even particularly early, chariots were around in Mesopotamia since 1600 BC or so. But thanks for checking + taking the picture! dab (ᛏ) 14:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Always happy to verify. Can you please see to it that Wheel Iran.jpg is updated? It's still displying the old picture I put up.--Zereshk 15:04, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it's a cache issue. It will appear. But why did you overwrite the old image? This one will have to be cropped. Where did you get the one without background? Incidentially, I am surprised that were wheels with metal rim in 1000 BC. But surely, parts of the wood must be preserved (otherwise, how would they have Carbon dated it?) Maybe just the central spokes are replacement, and the rim is the original wood? dab (ᛏ) 15:08, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

hey, and if they let you walk around with your camera in the museum like that, I am sure you can do a whole lot of other GFDL'd images of notable artefacts for Wikipedia, hint hint, ;o) dab (ᛏ) 15:13, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Is it too late to visit there again and snap some more photos? I hope not. ;-) -- Natalinasmpf 21:17, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pictures are allowed at close range, provided no flashes are used. I'll visit the museum again on my next trip to Iran. I'll see if I can get special permission to visit their non-exhibit collection (as I have done before).--Zereshk 10:15, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] needs to be expanded!

For something as important as the wheel, I'm surprised the article is so short. -- Natalinasmpf 05:25, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it does need to be expanded.

[edit] Some linguistic evidence

JP Mallory writes:

Tomas Gamkrelidze and Vyachislav Ivanov, interestingly enough, have noted that one of our words associated with wheeled vehicles, Proto-Indo-European *k^wek^wlo bears striking similarity to the words for vehicles in Sumerian gigir, Semitic *galgal, and Kartvelian *grgar. With the putative origin of wheeled vehicles set variously in the Pontic-Caspian, Transcaucasia or to Sumer, we may be witnessing the original word for a wheeled vehicle in four different language families. Furthermore, as the Proto-Indo-European form is built on an Indo-European verbal root *k^wel—'to turn, to twist', it is unlikely that the Indo-Europeans borrowed their word from one of the other languages. This need not, of course, indicate that Indo-Europeans invented wheeled vehicles, but it might suggest that they were in some for of contact relation with those Near Eastern languages in the fourth millennium B.C. —James P. Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology and Myth, Thames and Hudson, 1989, p. 163.

We are not so much speaking of the invention of the wheel as we are of wheeled vehicles. Toys supporting very little weight are one thing; a practical vehicle that can support its own weight as well as cargo is something entirely different. --FourthAve 21:26, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cart vs wagon

Any discussion of wheeled vehicles has to carefully distinguish between carts (one axle, two wheels) and wagons (two axles, four wheels). The distinction is recorded in the Proto-Indo-European language, and descends into all branches of the language family. American English has mucked things up by terming automobiles and railway carriages (either passenger or freight) as 'cars'; 'car' originally referred to a cart-like vehicle, and in artistic contexts (painting, sculpture), often a chariot. --FourthAve 10:56, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Archaeology

There does seem to be evidence that wheeled vehicles were invented in Europe first, and just maybe, in Northern Europe:

The GrN dates and the Flintbek age seem to suggest that wheeled vehicles were invented in Europe together with the ard, ox-team and yoke, not in the Near East. But the data are still scarce and the BR III DIC-dates raise interesting questions. (For complete article see: The earliest evidence of wheeled vehicles in Europe and the Near East. Antiquity 73, 1999:778-790) [1]
See also the picture of the spectacular pot excavated at Bronocice, Poland, which shows apparently the very first depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here, a wagon) anywhere.

I find this as shocking as I imagine you are. --FourthAve 21:58, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Axles

D.Q. Adams and JP Mallory do the article "Axle" in EIEC. They note there were two types of axles. The more common was a fixed axle where the wheel rotated on it; this is found in Mesopotamia, the Pontic-Caspian steppe, NE Europe. The second type had the axle rotate with the wheel; this attested in Switzerland and southern Germany, and seems to have once been more widespread, to have been replaced by the first type.

The most "abundant evidence" for early wheeled vehicles is from the steppe at the foot of the Caucasus; see Kura-Araxes culture and the Maykop culture, both of which most likely had Indo-European speaking components.--FourthAve 15:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Symbol

We may need Wheel (symbol) for those winged wheels and chakras. Weren't wheels taboo in Tibet before the Maoist invasion?

[edit] reason for not using wheels

from above

Where is the evidence of South American wheels?

you all so need a central empire of some sort to pay and mantane for the roads,it wasn't the case in central mexico at the time 1 to use wheels you need a flat surface(rare to existe by it self) in generaly a road 2 a central empire is needed to bealt them and maintain them 3 the empire must have sufichient resources and technology to build them(the incas didn't have buldosers on ther mountens,the romans at my nolge did not buld roads on mountens)

so in general at historic times it was easyer to not use wheels.

that good unaf?do somebody wants to add this whith corect english --Ruber chiken 21:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ehh? Error? T=f*r!

 Since a wheel is a rigid object, it will only be non-rotating when all the torques on it are balanced.
 Since forces produce larger torques when they are closer to the axis, a wheel can be used to transform between large and small forces applied by friction with belts or other wheels.
 The toothed gear was fundamental to the advent of industrial class complex machines. Other variations on wheels produce the pulley and the windlass

Line number two is clearly in error, as (for rigid bodies) Torque = F*r, where F is the force and r is the axle-distance. So forces produces SMALLER torques when applied closer to the axle. I think the author probably meant "since torques produses larger forces when they are closer to the axle"... This should be cleaned up quite fast, as its a grave error, and the sentence could be better anyway.

[edit] Allow Wheels

As popular as they are, there's no mention of them on wikipedia, perhaps someone with some knowledge can add an entry about them, what they are usually made from, when they were first made, etc.

[edit] "The Game"-CD, advertisement?

Today I was using the article for a little bit of research on the history of the wheel and found it irritating to see reference to a contemporary rap CD being advertized (?) as an 'example' of wheels as status symbols.

IMO anything really can be a status symbol and I don't think that entry of a rapper's CD release (along with its cover) and the mention of a carjacking scene in a movie does appropriate justice to the topic's evolutionary scale.

I suggest the removal of that part of the article.

Regards.

I agree, this rap CD has no place in an article on the wheel. 80.169.139.106 13:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC) Waltzer

I removed the following from the article... 80.169.139.106 16:32, 12 October 2006 (UTC)Waltzer

[edit] Status symbol

The Game, conspicuously displaying his rims.

In recent times, the custom aftermarket wheel has become a status symbol. These wheels are often referred to as "rims."

These "rims" have a great deal of variation, and are often very shiny. Some custom rims include a bearing-mounted, free-spinning disc which continues to rotate by inertia after the automobile is stopped. In slang, these are referred to as "Spinners" [2].

Custom rims are often much larger or smaller than the original wheel designed for the automobile it has been installed on. Occasionally, the diameter of the rim (measured in inches) is used to refer to the rim itself (e.g. "22s").

[edit] Example

In 1993's film Menace II Society, Caine carjacks a young man in a fast food drive through in order to obtain his custom rims, for incorporation on his Ford Mustang.

NPOV info on wheels as status symbols is reasonable, but the album cover image doesn't belong here-- it is Wikipedia:fair use for an article about the recording, but not to illustrate wheel, as we have much free media to do so. -- Infrogmation 10:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bronocice pot - Waza z Bronocic

www.neolit.prv.pl

[edit] The Bronocice pot

The vase from Bronocice - a ceramic pot with incised carts, discovered in 1974 during the archaeological excavation of a large Neolothic settlement in Bronicice by the Nidzica River, ca. 50 km to north east of Krakow (the Pinczow, Land District). The excavations were carried out between 1974 and 1980 by the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology of the Polish Academy of Arts and Sciences and the State University of New York at Buffalo (USA). The ornament on the pot shows a symbolic depiction of trees, fields, roads and a river. The most important component of the decoration are five rudimentary representations of a four-wheeled cart. The pot from Bronocice has been dated by a physical chemistry method (radiocarbon dating) to 3520 B.C. It is the oldest representation of a cart (or a wheeled vehicle) in the world.

The Institute of Archeology and Ethnology of the Polish Academy of Arts and Sciences, Kraków Branch, ul. Slawkowska 17, phone +48(12) 4222905,

www.archeo.pan.krakow.pl

[edit] Merging "Wheel and axle" and "Wheel", discuss.

I do not believe these two articles should be merged as they discuss two totally different things that use the same word.

Wheel and axle: The simple machine of a a wheel and an axle turning (at this stage it is unimportant which is making which turn) which leads to another connected wheel and axle to also turn.

Wheel: The wheel as we know it used for motion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GBobly (talk • contribs) 14:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Inconsistency

"History of the wheel and axle" says first The wheel reached India and Pakistan with the Indus Valley Civilization in the 3rd millennium BC then The wheel reached Europe and India (the Indus Valley civilization) in the 4th millennium BC. Which is right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 22:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

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