User talk:Wesley R. Elsberry

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I don't know if you are still active, but just a head's up: I used your draft to make an article for TalkOrigins_Archive. It is almost identical to your earlier version but incorporates a list of awards and recognition for the archive. JoshuaZ 02:47, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I felt that I could contribute a draft, but that Wikipedians should look it over and fix it up for use. -- WRE


Hi Wesley. I just wanted to thank you for your very helpful comments on the bottlenose dolphin talk page. If you haven't already begin doing, you should feel to correct the article directly in cases like this - i.e. in cases where you are familiar with the literature and confident of your own correctness. Thanks again for your contributions. Pcb21 Pete 12:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Sternberg

While this is arguably an exceptional case(given the nature of the issue at hand), WP:V frowns highly upon the use of blogs such as Panda's Thumb as sourcing, so it would be helpful if we had other sources that said the same thing (possibly the NCSE?). JoshuaZ 14:21, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, newbie type thing. I was adding a sentence to the entry. The previous sentence already was using a PT link as a source. Wesley R. Elsberry 19:17, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Email

I'd like to send you an email but your Wikipedia email is not enabled, would you mind enabling it and/or is there some other way to obtain your email address? JoshuaZ 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Universal probability bound

I made some changes to the Universal probability bound article. Still more work needs to be done but I think the proper context of statistical mechanics was missing from article. Please have a look and feel free to change it.--CSTAR 05:24, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "dB SPL" is an invalid unit

Numerous articles in Wikipedia are using an invalid acoustic "unit", variously specified as "dB SPL", "dBSPL", and "dB(SPL)". There may be other variants. Affected articles include decibel, sound pressure, sound pressure level, and audiogram. But the full range of articles with the problem can best be seen by search for each specific variant. Such a search on "dB SPL" returns 21 Wikipedia articles.

The guidelines given for the US National Standards clearly excludes the use of "dB SPL". See the ASACOS Rules for Preparation of American National Standards in ACOUSTICS, MECHANICAL VIBRATION AND SHOCK, BIOACOUSTICS, and NOISE, which states:

3.16 Unit symbols 3.16.1 When to use unit symbols In the text of the standard, the unit symbol for a quantity shall be used only when the unit is preceded by a numeral. When the unit is not preceded by a numeral, spell out the name of the unit. In text, even when a numerical value is given, it is desirable to spell out the name of the unit. Moreover, the name shall be spelled out when it first appears in the text, and more often if the text is lengthy.
Thus, in text write "...a sound pressure level of 73 dB; or "...a sound pressure level of 73 decibels." Do not write "sound pressure level in dB"; the correct form is "sound pressure level in decibels." Do not write "dB levels", "dB readings", or "dB SPL."
Levels or readings are not of decibels; they are of sound pressure levels or some other acoustical quantity. Write out the word "decibel" for such applications, and be sure that the word 'decibel' follows, not precedes the description of the relevant acoustical quantity.

The use of "dB SPL", as shown above by an authoritative source, is wrong. The incorrect use is common in Wikipedia articles, and it is a problem. I've been leaving a message in the talk sections of various articles that need to have this fixed. An attempted edit to begin correction of the decibel article was reverted to the incorrect usage.

The treatment of sound pressure level is inconsistent with standard reference works across Wikipedia. Both Kinsler and Frey's "Fundamentals of Acoustics" (2nd edition) and Robert Urick's "Principles of Underwater Sound" (3rd edition) indicate that a measured intensity is a level (Urick p.15) or sound pressure level (K&F) relative to a reference effective pressure (K&F pp.125-126). Both of these sources recommend reporting decibels with an explicit listing of the reference effective pressure, like so: "74 dB re 20 micropascals", where the number and units following re is the reference effective pressure. Level or sound pressure level in both these standard texts simply refer to a measurement in the sound field and are not indications of a specific reference pressure upon which the decibel is based. In other words, "dB SPL" is an invalid means of attempting to refer to the in-air reference effective pressure. In no article thus far have I seen the "dB SPL" usage tied to an authoritative source. By contrast, the "dB re" formalism is common to both standard reference works that I have cited, and is explicitly excluded in the work laying out the format for the national standards.

Other sites using the "dB re" formalism: Oceans of Noise (explicit in defining SPL and SIL in terms of "dB re"), SURTASS LFA, NIST listing SPL in terms of "dB re", and Acoustic Impacts on Marine Mammals.

On the decibel page, an edit lists having entered a better reference for use of "dB SPL". This "better reference" for use of "dB SPL" added to the decibel article ends up being a document that merely includes "dB SPL" in a list of terms. The glossary within the same document does not even list this supposed unit, even though weighted decibel terms are defined. The glossary in the file does have an entry for "sound pressure level", which is

Sound pressure level: (1) Ten times the logarithm to the base ten of the ratio of the time-mean-square pressure of a sound, in a stated frequency band, to the square of the reference sound pressure in gases of 20 micropascals (µPa). Unit, dB; symbol, Lp. (2) For sound in media other than gases, unless otherwise specified, reference sound pressure in 1 µPa (ANSI S1.1-1994: sound pressure level).

Notice that the unit specified is "dB", not "dB SPL". The inclusion of "dB SPL" in the list of terms does not establish that that usage is correct, and even their own reference of the ANSI standard indicates that their usage is incorrect. SPL refers to a measurement, and is not an indication of the reference effective pressure. The ANSI standard referenced makes this clear, as SPL is defined as being used for other reference effective pressures, too. (Note: The ANSI standard itself is not something I have on hand; I am relying on the quoted glossary in the referenced link. I did check and found another page that claims to have extracted that text without modification from the ANSI standard, and it matches. To get the PDF of the ANSI standard, one would have to pay $150.)

A reasonable question to ask is why, if the term is incorrect, does Wikipedia have so many articles that use it? Since SPL is a useful concept, people do report measurements of various SPLs. I think that the shorthand way that this may commonly be done (and which the writing guideline above warns against and the ANSI standard contradicts) would be to say, "We recorded a 74 dB SPL at 10 meters from the sound source," rather than, "We recorded a sound pressure level of 74 dB at 10 meters from the sound source," or the complete, "We recorded a sound pressure level of 74 decibels re 20 micropascals at 10 meters from the sound source," which is unambiguous. If one uses the shortcut of the first example a lot, one may become erroneously convinced that the actual unit of measurement is a "dB SPL". This may be more common among people who do all their acoustic work using only one assumed reference effective pressure. Within a particular community, actually writing out each measurement with the reference effective pressure indicated may appear to be redundant and a waste of space and time. Because reference effective pressures have changed in the past, published reports that failed to specify which one corresponded to a particular measurement has made comparison to modern measurements ambiguous, and thus unreliable.

If the "dB SPL" problem is going to be fixed, we must have some agreement among those who regularly contribute to the acoustics articles on Wikipedia that there really is a problem here. The incorrect usage is otherwise too pervasive in existing Wikipedia articles to risk starting edit wars that will simply waste people's time.

Wesley R. Elsberry 21:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Welcome!

Hey, welcome to Wikipedia! I'm an administrator here, so if you ever need any covert EAC work done you can contact me through the usual backchannels. Seeya around. --Cyde Weys 23:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hovind dissertation

Hi, I noticed your comments on the Kent Hovind page in which you wrote "Yes, NCSE does have a copy of Hovind's dissertation. I have seen it..." Is there any web source or magazine article that I can reference the NCSE as having a copy available for viewing from the public? It needs to be sourced in the article. Arbusto 07:56, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Karen Bartelt's review of Hovind's dissertation was based on the copy obtained by Skip Evans, then the Network Project Director at NCSE. That is the copy that NCSE currently holds. It is very likely the original, since it includes illustrations that are based upon graphs trimmed from magazines and taped into the document. Other references include a Usenet post by Jason Gastrich, who visited NCSE to read Hovind's dissertation, though he forgot NCSE's name. In two other posts, Jason Gastrich and Skip Evans discuss Jason's visit to NCSE: here and here. --Wesley R. Elsberry 06:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, any chance the NCSE would be willing to put a PDF or some other scanned version up on the website? JoshuaZ 06:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that NCSE would love to be able to do so. NCSE has to treat its copy of Hovind's dissertation like any other copyrighted work. NCSE would have to have permission from Hovind, who so far has not seen fit to grant permission for his dissertation, as provided by Patriot University, to be re-published by anyone else. This goes with Hovind's bizarre claim to have continued to work upon and add to his dissertation post-graduation; so far as I know, Hovind does not provide this work-in-progress to anyone else, either. --Wesley R. Elsberry 11:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

How about if you can't put the whole thing on the web, then a photo or two from far out enough that you can't read it properly but you can still see the stuff stuck in with glue stick with like artistic merit. Paul A. Newman 12:38, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds do-able. I'll see about that. --Wesley R. Elsberry 20:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Any word on the photo idea? A picture of the cover uploaded on wikipedia for interested parties? FGT2 21:35, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. I will try and get this done, but I have to admit it isn't way up on the priorities as I pack for a move. --Wesley R. Elsberry 00:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
No rush, but it would be nice to have an image of it. Especially with his sentencing coming up. FGT2 01:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TOA hacking & google

Wow. Some of those people who posted comments are amazingly rude jerks. Guettarda 20:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dembski photo

To be usable by Wikipedia you need to release it under an appropriate free license (GFDL, CC-by-SA, etc.) Assuming that you are the copyright holder, it would be best for you to upload the image either here at the English Wikipedia (via Special:Upload) or at Wikimedia Commons (via commons:Special:Upload) where it would be available for use in all Wikimedia projects. Make sure to tag the images appropriately when you upload them. Guettarda 17:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


I uploaded the first photo to Image:Wad_by_wre_20060317_2972.JPG . --Wesley R. Elsberry 18:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dembski's Christmas Present to his critics

Wes, can you name who Dembski sent the christmas present email to? If it was his critics then I think an argument could be made it belongs in the response to critics section. See my latest comments on the Dembski talk page.

There’s a Christmas present for you at www.overwhelmingevidence.com – a flash animation that features each of you prominently (some of you are probably aware of it already

Cheers! Mr Christopher 21:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Wesley R. Elsberry 22:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Genetic Recombination Information Issue

Wesley, I am bringing this debate over to your talk page as instructed by Wikipedia guidelines regarding dispute resolution. Firstly, I would advise you to read the Guidelines for Vandalism. You may find that your edits (or Phippard's) fit the definition much better than my edits. I'm sure you would not want that to be the case. Also, let me point out to you the Wikipedia policy for dispute resolution:

Avoidance
The best way to resolve a dispute is to avoid it in the first place.
Be respectful to others and their points of view. This means primarily: Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes

As instructed by Wikipedia policy, I improved the article by adding to it and making it more clear. You, (or your friend Phippard) however, simply reverted the article because you disagreed with my added sentence, in violation of the Wikipedia policy just mentioned. Then you insinuate that I am a vandal, not to mention that you did it publicly on the Article Discussion page. The reason you gave for reverting it was

This is an antievolution talking point. It comes with no substantiation whatsoever, and depends critically on leaving any coherent definition of "information" out of the discussion. While this may not meet the Wikipedia:Vandalism criteria, it comes pretty close to that. I suggest reverting to the previous version. --Wesley R. Elsberry 17:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I gave an excellent, recognized reference supporting the idea that existing genetic information is merely reshuffled. I suppose your statement of "no substantiation" refers to the definition of "information"? Are you telling me you are unfamiliar with Dr. Thomas Schneider and his discussions of biological information. Surely you are aware of these? If not, I will furnish references for you. Afdave 02:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You have gotten yourself confused. First, I have never made any change to the "Genetic recombination" article, as a brief check of the edit history will demonstrate. Second, Dr. Phippard did not revert your insertion; "JoshuaZ" did. Third, your addition to the article did not have any reference; that is "unsubstantiated". Fourth, I have been a correspondent of Dr. Schneider's; I certainly do know the researcher and his work, which contradicts your stance. Fifth, this comment that you left on my talk page is in no sense "courteous", as you erroneously claimed on the "Genetic recombination" talk page.
References that show that recombination does cause the formation of novel alleles trumps references that have not taken cognizance of that research. This aspect of science will continue to cause you trouble until you learn that you cannot set aside evidence by quoting people who have not yet addressed that evidence. --Wesley R. Elsberry 04:46, 9 January 2007 (UTC)