Template talk:WesternSahara-stub

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This flag isn't unanumously recognized as flag of WS. Its usage is inoccurate and misleading. Daryou 16:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Not misleading How exactly will users be mislead? If users want to know more about the relevant topics, they can click on the links provided. Justin (koavf) 16:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

According to your reasoning, a moroccan flag won't be misleading either. Daryou 17:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Yes it would Since Morocco is not Western Sahara, according to the reasoning of many sources, including the UN. Justin (koavf) 17:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

According to the reasoning of many sources, including the UN, this flag isn't the flag of WS. Daryou 17:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Not necessarily The UN has never said that this isn't the flag of Western Sahara, since it's never said that anything was. All it has said is that the Sahara isn't Moroccan. Justin (koavf) 17:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

UN has never recognized the SADR. Daryou 17:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

===>The SADR has never applied to the UN So it's irrelevant. Justin (koavf) 18:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The SADR isn't recognized by 80% of the countries of the world, 50% of the countires that recognised SADR cancelled or froze this recognition. Daryou 22:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Who doesn't recognize it is irrelevant A lack of recognition is irrelevant - the U.S. doesn't have diplomatic ties with Iran, but that doesn't make their government illegitimate. Several Arab states refuse to recognize Israel, but it's still real. Justin (koavf) 00:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The US recognises Iran, and 99% of the world countries recognize Israel, that's the difference. Daryou 07:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Would it be any better to say "This Western Sahara or SADR article...", as that doesn't equate the two? The map (and I'd be happy to crop it if that's desired) is a less controversial and more neutral image than the flag, and ought to be used, I think. --Mairi 07:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

===>No problem with "or", but to be consistent, see Template:Taiwan-stub. Justin (koavf) 19:26, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Be consistent and comply with WP neutrality principles. Daryou 19:55, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Consistency I am being consistent. I gave you an example that is similar. Now, you have to try to convince me that they are inherently different. Justin (koavf) 21:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The third party comment said exactly that "The map is a less controversial and more neutral image than the flag, and ought to be used", You should read other WPians comments, you know? Daryou 22:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a good point, about Template:Taiwan-stub. (FWIW, more countries recognize SADR than ROC, according to the respective articles. On the other hand, no one suggested using the map for Template:Taiwan-stub.) The other case I had in mind was Template:Cyprus-stub, which originally had a map as a more neutral image than the flag, after some discussion prior to its creation (although there's currently an anon who keeps putting the flag there, and not a good image of the flag for that matter either.) One other solution would be to have no image, as stub templates hardly require images. --Mairi 22:11, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Even if the ROC is less recognized than SADR, it does actually control the whole territory of Taiwan. The situation is completely different in WS. SADR doesn't control the whole territory, using the flag of SADR to represent the whole territory of WS is misleading, inoccurate and biased for an encyclopedia. Daryou 22:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Did you even read the article at Republic of China? The ROC claims all of China, Tibet, Sinkiang, Mongolia, and Taiwan, so it controls a small percentage of its claim. The SADR controls a much higher percentage. Your argument is irrational and self-defeating. Justin (koavf) 22:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

the flag used in the Template:Taiwan-stub is the chineese flag of the Taiwan province. I think that you know it since you use a different flag in your user page ;) . Daryou 22:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

===>Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about That's the flag of the Republic of China, a rival government to the People's Republic of China. Justin (koavf) 23:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

So, is it the flag of Taiwan or China? You see that the Template:Taiwan-stub uses the ROC proposed flag of the whole China, but is used only in Taiwan related pages. The situation is by then completely different. We discussed the issue many times in the WS infobox conflict. Daryou 23:19, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

===>There is no agreed-upon "China" It's a complex issue, and clearly, you are not familiar with it, or you wouldn't even ask. Please read the articles China, Repbulic of China, People's Republic of China, and Taiwan. Justin (koavf) 23:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I SAID that the situation is completely different. We have already discussed the matter. Daryou 23:28, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Protected

I've protected the template. Every change to a template that is in use on many articles causes problems for the template. Please resolve the problems here, rather than edit warring.

As it is, the flag is clearly going to cause a problem for some users. The map, however, is far too big for a stub icon. There is no reason why this stub even needs an icon, so for now, until some resolution can be reached, it hasn't got one.

For details on this page protection, see Wikipedia:Protected pages.

Grutness...wha? 05:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stub icon

Okay - it looks like the dust has now settled. There seem to be three possible things to do as regards an icon for this template:

  1. use the flag,
  2. use a map, such as
  3. have no icon.

So as to avoid further edit warring, I'd like to call upon a vote here - feel free to add a support OR oppose vote to any of these three choices, as listed below. Please only vote oppose if you have a genuine reason for doing so (such as a fear of the icon showing political bias). After a couple of weeks it should be clear which of the choices is most acceptable, or at leqast narrow down the options. Feel free to mention this vote on any relevant wikipedia forums. My own opinion is that - unless there are objections - the flag would be betters, as it is more in keeping with other stub icons. If it is not acceptable, however, then the map is also a viable option (as is having no icon at all). Grutness...wha? 00:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Please note: "Consistency" is not a reason in itself not to use a particular icon, as geo-stub icons are deliberately not consistent for a number of reasons. Some countries use flags, such as {{UK-geo-stub}}, others use maps, like {{Indonesia-geo-stub}}, and some even have combined map/flag icons (such as {{Belgium-geo-stub}} and {{Ukraine-geo-stub}}). Grutness...wha? 02:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How about of course it would be better if the WS map had a transparent background, but i think thats doable. - FrancisTyers · 11:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That would be an invitation to edit wars, I think.--E Asterion u talking to me? 11:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Seeing as how there is only one "Flag of Western Sahara", and that Morocco doesn't recognise a "Western Sahara" entity, I can't see any reason not to have the flag. I think it would be reasonable to also have a "SouthernProvinces-stub", with a Moroccan flag, which could go on those articles which are to do with the parts occupied by Morocco. - FrancisTyers · 14:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag icon

[edit] Support

  1. Koavf - This is consistent with what is done on Template:Taiwan-stub. Why should it be different here? The wording was specifically written to take a moderated stance on the topic and not assume a position, just like on that one. Also, the objections came from a single editor with notorious pro-Moroccan bias who has not edited for several weeks. -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 01:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. —Nightstallion (?) Makes sense, mirrors Taiwan stub template.
Oppose
  1. Cpt. Morgan With a region that is so strongly claimed by two parties, and with non of the options being officialy recognized by the majority of the international community, using the flag representing only one of the two parties and the icon is not a neutral choice.

[edit] Map icon

[edit] Support

  1. Asterion. Though I have nothing against the RASD flag, I find the map more suitable for a controversial issue like this. This should prevent any possible edit wars.
  2. Cpt. Morgan As stub tags display a variety of different images, this map is very well suited to be used as an image here.
  3. Concur w/ Asterion and Cpt. Morgan. This would be my second choice after the no icon. Saharawis are geographically related to this map but not necessarily to the political flag. -- Szvest 11:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™
  4. Electionworld, in this case the most neutral option.
  5. Arre 20:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC) - I don't mind the flag either, but this should save us all some hassle.
Oppose
  1. Koavf - Inconsistent. Why should the ROC get displayed, but not the SADR? -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 01:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. —Nightstallion (?) Inconsistent.

[edit] No icon

[edit] Support

  1. Cpt. Morgan. Stubs tags are mainly used by people who know how to use wikipedia and for categorization. IMO a stub does not need an image to be useful.
  2. In relation to neutrality, no icon would be the best solution of a complicated issue as this. -- Szvest 11:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™
  3. This is certainly the best solution on offer. And with luck, this could be the beginning of a general campaign to remove these unnecessary bandwidth-eating images from all stub tags. -- Visviva 12:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    Comment: The map was resized to icon size. It is hardly a few Kb big. It is not as if the full size map is being hot-linked here. In any case, I understand your point, but wikipedia is a visual encyclopedia. Most people also visually associate the map with Western Sahara. Regards, --E Asterion u talking to me? 16:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Oppose
  1. Koavf - Inconsistent. Why should the ROC get displayed, but not the SADR? -Justin (koavf), talk, mail 01:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. Asterion - Most of the geo-stubs do have either a map or a flag. E Asterion u talking to me? 12:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  3. —Nightstallion (?) Even more inconsistent.
  4. Arre 20:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC) - That would be so terribly dull.
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