Talk:Westeros

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Contents 1 Can we list the size? 2 Moved some pages here 3 speculative identifications 4 Two or three continents 5 Mention of Patchface in the Drowned God Section 6 Minor Changes 7 Timeline 8 Him of Many Faces 9 Fansite 10 Crownlands 11 Minor Edits 12 Literal meaning of "Winterfell"

[edit] Can we list the size?

For many years GRRM said that the maps are not to scale and you cannot use the Wall as a scale bar to measure the size of the continent. However, about six months ago (possibly prompted by Ran's new map which he did using the Wall as a scale bar and found out that everything more or less matches with the text) he seemed to reverse this in an on-line interview and said that you could do that and the results would be broadly accurate. Thus some very general distances could now be given (such as the that distance from the Wall to the south coast of Dorne is a shade over 3,000 miles). Although this would be useful info, I'm thinking perhaps it shouldn't be added as it would qualify as original research. I believe the length of the Wall (100 leagues/300 miles) and the south coast of Dorne (400 leagues/1200 miles) are the only hard distances given in the text itself.--Werthead 15:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved some pages here

I have merged quite a few individual pages about specific pages in Westeros into this one, which contained just one- or two-paragraphs of text. I am still not sure if that was a good idea, and some of these pages may become individual articles again, or all go into a "Specific places in Westeros" page, when the Westeros-related material takes shape. Thore 21:54, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

"There are nineteen castles along the Wall, although some are too small to truly be called castles. Only three are manned during the events of A Song of Ice and Fire, including the largest one—Castle Black, the eastmost one—Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and a western one—the Shadow Tower."

Isn't the Nightfort the largest castle? User:BigwigML

I think you are right, but check it anyway and then fix it yourself. Welcome to Wikipedia. Arbor 21:57, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Edit to change the Godswood description for Winterfell. Almost every castle in the seven kingdoms has a Godswood, and it's quite likely most, if not all, of those in the North still have their weirwoods.

Merged in the page on Harrenhal. Brendan 17:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] speculative identifications

I removed these identifications, replacing them with the introductory note that the continent is loosely based on medieval Britain.

from #Geography:

Though each land is geographically different, the people are mostly the same, due to being conquered in turn by the First Men, then the Andals and then later by the Taragryns from Valeryia. The First Men being alike to the Celts, the Andals like the Saxons, and the the Taragryns alike the the Romans or the Normans. Bringing in an age alike to the Middle ages.

from #The North:

The real life equiverlent would be the Scottish Highlanders, and the Wildings beyond the Wall being Germanic.

from Westeros#The Iron Islands:

The real life equivelent would have been the Vikings.

These are broadly correct, emphasis on broadly. Certainly these pieces of real history influenced the fictional history of Westeros. The equivalences are far from exact, though; one could just as well say that the First Men and the Andals were derived from, respectively, the Beaker culture and the Celts (the technological timeline fits better that way, for example). Likewise, while the northmen are not a little bit Scottish, they have much of the Norseman about them too. The ironmen were certainly inspired by the Danes in Britain, but let's not forget the Irish pirates as well. And so forth. Then, too, there's much that is entirely original; I don't recall any real-life equivalent to the cult of the Drowned God, for example, and there's Dorne, which is Middle Eastern or North African (certainly Mediterranean, anyway) if anything . . . and let's not forget all the magic. —Charles P._(Mirv) 05:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

The cult of the Drowned God is based on the Cthulhu Mythos invented by horror writer H.P. Lovecraft. In the mythos Cthulhu is a drowned god that lies both dead and sleeping in a city at the bottom of the ocean and will rise again one day. "That is not dead which can eternal lie." - Lovecraft Cthulhu quote. "What is dead can never die." - worship phrase for the Drowned God. Sdball 17:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

That is correct and plausible. But we need an external source before we can add it. (Even if all the editors on this page agreed that, indeed, DrownedGodism is inspired by Cthulhu, we couldn't just write that.) Check WP:NOR and WP:V. Basically, what we are after is a con report or an interview where George says, possibly in drunken stupor: "Yup. They're inspired by Lovecraft. I thought that was obvious." Then we can add it, with a source and all. Arbor 17:53, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't actually think the Cthulhu-Drowned God connection merited an entry in the article, just that it was an interesting aside to Mirv's comment. I did find another connection in the name 'Dagon'. Dagon is a significant god or creature in the Cthulhu Mythos, and we also have Lord Dagon Greyjoy in The Sworn Sword. Interesting. Sdball 18:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The Dagon of the Cthulhu mythos is in fact a sea monster of sorts, based on the Semitic deity Dagon whose name (Which is connected to the Hebrew word for 'fish') brought about depictions of him as some sort of fishlike entity. In any event, while I think George may have certainly nicked the concept of 'What is dead can never die' and certianly the name of Dagon from Lovecraft, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the cult of the Drowned God is based on the Cthulhu Mythos. It contains no elements of unknowable, maddening horror and/or the presence of vastly powerful elder beings predating humanity that define the Mythos. If anything, its a tip of the hat at best.Swordwraith 14:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Their food, appearance, and architecture resemble those of Mediterranean cultures such as Greece and Turkey more than the Western European feel of the other kingdoms.

I always thought Dorne resembled Spain the most. I suggest replacing Greece or Turkey with Spain —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 199.43.32.86 (talk) 20:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

To be honest it's all original research or speculation that needs to be removed anyway. As a matter of fact unless the sky might fall after I'm gong to comb through this in the next day or two and remove those statements. NeoFreak 20:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Two or three continents

Now how many continents were described? Two or three?

Three. Westeros, the lands of the east including the Free Cities, Slaver's Bay, the Dothraki Sea, the Jade Sea, Ti Li, Asshai and the Shadow (which all occupy one huge, Eurasia+ sized landmass) and Sothoryos, which lies south of Slaver's Bay.--Werthead 19:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mention of Patchface in the Drowned God Section

I put the mention of Patchface back into the Drowned God section because I believe he is heavily linked to the Drowned God. He was lost for two days at sea and speaks of lying dead at the bottom of the ocean, then washed ashore alive and with strange powers. The drowning and ressurection of a person echoes the major aspects of the Drowned God religion. The other gods' sections have information concerning their magical impact in the world, if any, so I believe for the sake of completeness Patchface should be mentioned because, so far, he is the only possible evidence of the Drowned God's power.Captain Crawdad 06:12, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I see where you're coming from, but "I believe" and "echoes" and "possible" point up the problem here: there's nothing explicit to link Patchface to the Drowned God. We don't need to bump this incident up just to give evidence of the Drowned God's possible power when none exists. The identification is speculative in a way that saying the Seven are expected in intervene in trials by combat isn't. The mention of warging in the context of the old gods is similarly problematic. Brendan Moody 06:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, its a magical world, and various characters put the gods as the source of various magical shenanigans. I think it's relevant to each of the faiths to list any evidence there is for these claims. I don't want to add pointless speculation, but if a god is supposed to have power over drowning and ressurection, and there's a magical incident involving drowning and ressurection, it just seems incomplete not to mention the correlation. Also, the warging/old Gods relationship is pretty solid. Jojen knowns about warging through his greenseer powers, which originated with the Children of the Forest, the original worshippers of the Old Gods. There's no evidence of causation, but isn't that also a strong enough correlation to bear mentioning?Captain Crawdad 06:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I am with Brendan here. I think the speculation about which gods exist and not has nothing to do on Wikipedia. But we shouldn't be in the business of collecting (however sensible) evidence for or against the existence of deities or mechanics of magic. I say delete all these passages. (A general assessment of Martin's use of prophecy and supernatural intervention, possibly in comparison to other instances in the genre, might have a place. For example, it would be fine to somewhere include Martin's quote that he does not write about gods but about religion. ) Arbor 09:57, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I guess I'm in the minority here. I removed all mention of magic in the religion section.Captain Crawdad 16:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Changes

King's Landing in the largest and most populous city in Westeros, not Oldtown. Oldtown is second. I will look up the appropiate citation in the SSM. I also changed the name of the Lannister territory from 'The Westlands' to 'The Westerlands', as confirmed in the Game of Thrones RPG (approved by George RR Martin), in the SSM and in the novels. Again, citation forthcoming.--Werthead 19:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I am not entirely sure you are correct about King's Landing being larger. I have always been under the impression that Oldtown was larger, which means that in theory I read it somewhere, though I cannot for the life of me remember where. There is a SSM, probably the one you are referring to, that appears to rank the cities in order from largest to smallest and places King's Landing at the front, but Martin never explicitly stated he was doing a largest to smallest ranking and the only thing that post proves for certain is that King's Landing and Oldtown are both larger than Lannisport which is larger than Gulltown and White Harbor. I believe more research is needed before making this change again (someone else has already reverted you here). Edit: In between beginning to write this response and posting it, the person who originally reverted you changed it back, so that part of this post is moot. Still, I would like to see some more research than that single SSM post, which I feel is inconclusive. It is not a big deal in the grand scheme of life, however. Indrian 20:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It was me that reverted- as you note, I've since changed it back, since I can't locate my reference at the moment. However, I also remember reading that Oldtown was larger. It stuck in my mind, since I found it rather surprising. I'll see if I can figure out where I got the information from; it may well have been the RPG. Brendan Moody 20:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, it's not the RPG, which also describes King's Landing as the largest settlement. Brendan Moody 20:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Well, that is two sources, one ambiguous and one definite, so I guess it must be so. It does make me even more curious how I came to the opposite conclusion, however. Indrian 20:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Curious. Oldtown is the oldest city of Westeros by some margin, going back to the days of the Andal invasions if not before that, so you may have confused 'oldest' with 'largest'. That also means that Oldtown may have been the largest until somewhat recently, when KL overtook it. It's possible (but it seems unlikely as GRRM did not specify it so in the SSM) that KL is larger now only because it is swollen with refugees; Oldtown may have a larger 'peacetime' population but I don't think that's what GRRM meant. I think he meant that KL is the bigger city full stop. Still, if you come up with an in-book source that would be great and I'd happily change it back. But the SSM and the RPG do seem to make it definite that King's Landing is the largest city for now.--Werthead 19:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC) (I actually posted this weeks ago but only just realised I hadn't signed it - d'oh!)

I took away the capitals from the Great Other as that isn't the dark god's name as Mel tells us it is sacrilige to speek his name and she's only reffering to his greatness and that he is the other god. And it's only from fancult that we have dubbed him as the Great Other. Cybroleach 18:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Timeline

Expanded the timeline, which was vary bare before. I do ponder if I went overboard on the detail though. And, although we have already discussed keeping the number of "'Whatever' of A Song of Ice and Fire" articles to a minimum, I think we really do have more than enough info for a History of A Song of Ice and Fire page, although I am concerned over how much this would overlap with Wars. Perhaps changing the Wars to a History page with the Wars listed as part of it? A lot of Westero's major historical events are covered by wars, but there are a few elements (Alysanne helping the Night's Watch, the Princesses in the Tower, the Tragedy of Summerhall) which do not fit in with it. I also changed some dates: The Hedge Knight takes place in 209, the War of the Usurper takes place in 282-283 and A Game of Thrones begins in 298, not 297.--Werthead 20:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it looks fine. (A better history section was another of those things on my "To Do" list that I would probably never have gotten around to.) My one question is about some of the specific dates; is it GRRM-verified that the events listed for 282 and 283 happened in those years (rather than merely around that time), and that the series began in 298? If not, citing specific years is inappropriate.

On another topic, I think that with a strongholds page, the "specific places" section is superflous. Something on King's Landing might still be useful, but the rest could go. Brendan Moody 20:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The dates are straightforward. AGoT's appendix tells us that Aerys dies in 283 and the war raged for over a year, giving us a start date for the war as 282. Jaime was 17 when he killed Aerys and 15 when he became a Kingsguard at the Great Tourney of Harrenhal, putting the Great Tourney two years before Aerys' death, i.e. 281. There is no way of differentiating between what events happened where, save that the start of the war (Brandon and Rickard's deaths) must be in 282 and the Trident and the Sack in 283, so I'll change the entries to 282-283 rather than list the two years seperately. The book says several times it has been fifteen years since the rebellion. 283+15=298, giving us a start date for AGoT of 298. Given that Dany is born nine months after Aerys' death, probably in 284, that gives us her age of 13 when the book starts and turning 14 during it.

The other, less-roundabout (and probably less OR-endangering) way of pinning the date is simply that we know for a fact that Joffrey and Margaery marry on the first day of 300AL and a few weeks or months later (certainly not a year later), Kevan tells Cersei that he has not seen his wife in two years, since before the war. 300-2=298. Hope this is good enough, otherwise I think that there may be a direct quote from GRRM somewhere in SSM on the issue.--Werthead 23:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy leaving the war as a whole at 282-283. The two ways of getting to 298 are a little questionable, as GRRM has said that the characters tend to be imprecise about the passage of time.[1] (There's no reference to 297 or 298 as years in the SSM.) I don't think it's important enough to worry about, though. Brendan Moody 00:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see you are right. I think GRRM is very slowly changing his mind about the detail of worldbuilding in the series though. His recent reversal of his years-long comment that you couldn't use the Wall as a scale bar seems to be something of confirmation on that. Hopefully this is another matter that may be laid to rest by the World Book.--Werthead 19:11, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Him of Many Faces

Is Him of Many Faces enough of a Westerosi god to warrent mention here? He's already got a write-up in the Free Cities article, which seems a more appropriate place. Does anyone else think his entry here should be either eliminated or abridged and linked to the main article in Free Cities (ASOIAF)? I'm loath to just cut it without some feedback, but it seems pointless to list every god with at least one follower in Westeros. -Captain Crawdad 09:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems a bit pointless. If this god is restricted to the Free Cities with no major influence, then he can be covered there.--Werthead 23:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the section. If someone comes up with a really good reason why it needs to be in this article as well, it's easy enough to retrieve it. -Captain Crawdad 23:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fansite

I added a short paragraph about the Westeros website since I thought it was of value (since it has GRRM's official stamp of approval). Does anyone feel this info might be better moved somewhere else though?--Werthead 23:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think this belongs in the External Links section, along with a short blurb. If it were to get additional special mention, I would think the better place would be A Song of Ice and Fire. -Captain Crawdad 23:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crownlands

"The Crownlands" have been added as a geographic area. First, is "the Crownlands" a term used in the books? Second, is this really a distinct geographic area? -Captain Crawdad 01:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. The Crownlands is one of several informal terms I've seen used to describe the area around King's Landing (along with the Kinglands and Royal Lands), but not in the books. It is a distinct geographic area and in fact we get it's borders delineated in AFFC. It is also considered a seperate geographic area by GRRM (who assigned the various towns and castles sworn directly to King's Landing rather than Riverrun for the Westeros Concordance website and the RPG). I think it should simply be called 'King's Landing' or 'the area around King's Landing'.--Werthead 16:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Edits

I've done some minor edits to the timeline section, removing some of the more speculative dates (we have no idea when the Night King reigned or exactly how the Valyrians found their dragons).--Werthead 16:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literal meaning of "Winterfell"

I believe this was mentioned in a much earlier version of this or a similar page, but maybe you might want to include it here as well. "Winterfell" is German for "winter pelt" and I happen to think that this a nice touch to all that "Winter is coming" talk along with the wolf or direwolf being the symbol for House Stark. I guess it is an interesting thing to mention and to have people think about it. Any opinions on this?