Talk:Western United States

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Contents

[edit] please also see

Please also see Talk:American West for talk regarding the same subject matter on a former duplicate article's talk page, that was merged and redirected here.

[edit] Merge with American West at Western United States

This article needs to be merged with its duplicate article American West at Western United States, which is where the article should be located under WikiProject U.S. regions naming conventions. -JCarriker 20:59, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Since there seems to be no oppostion to 'this page being moved, I'll be moving it to Western United States momentarily. American West still needs to be merged with it. -JCarriker 04:10, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] American West vs. Western U.S.

66.167.139.50 05:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC): The current state of these two article is problematic. My suggestion, posted on Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Regions/General and Talk:American West#Western states, is to post the cultural aspects of the American West and its changing boundaries as the frontier moved westward, in American West, whil have this article focus concretely on an enumerated list of states. American West should either have no color-coded maps or multiple maps, one for each period in American history.

[edit] Is this a page about the American West or not?

If this is about the American West, why is it under this title? If this is not the American West, why does it say it is? The American West is not some sort of fuzzy place. It's a pretty well defined area of study. See PBS The West, the producers, and the list of consultants (all very well respected in the field). And for those who seem to think there is no contemporary West, see the list of resources at The American West; A changing cultural Landscape from the Library of Congress. I have written sources as well. For those who continue to say Texas is not part of the West, see University of Texas, Spring 2005: The Contemporary American West "Course Description: In this course we will look at modern novels, short stories, and essays that have as their focus the nature of the American West, particularly Texas. Some of the works examine the myth of the “wild west”—cowboys, Indians, outlaws, and the like. Others deal with the vanishing West of legend. Others more specifically offer comment on the nature of the modern American West." DHarjo 12:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes this is about the West, it is at this title because this title is were it belongs under naming conventions. There is a contemporary West, anything west of the Mississippi can and is included as part of the West in various regional models. Texas being west of the Misssissippi, is highlighted on the map and is also included in the articles' text. If I were you, I'd place PBS The West and The American West; A changing cultural Landscape right now and possibly move them to sources if they end up being used as such for the article. -JCarriker 13:10, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why you've done what you've done but you need to think about fixing what you've broken. Naming conventions? I read those before I named my first article. Where are your sources that give the West this name? Various regional models? Where are your sources? If you don't furnish some pretty soon, I'll take a crack at fixing this subject. What I'll do is put it back under its proper name and take out all the unsourced stuff and replace it with what I have references for. DHarjo 03:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC) Maybe New England needs to be renamed to Northeastern corner of the United States. That makes a much sense. DHarjo 03:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

  • You have been given the information on naming conventions, alternate defintions, and duplicate articles in the past, did you not read read them. Regardless, after your childish Vfd nomination and your absurd New England comment, I see no reason to help you find information I have previously directed you to. By the way CPret I don't bow before threats. Your behavior is hurting your own cause; your ideas have been included and your attempts to suppress other views will not succeed here. -JCarriker 11:53, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
  • It took me a lot of effort to find out exactly what you're talking about. So you think it's all a plot. You think maybe your superior attitude is why you got bucked. No, it's all a plot. Your think maybe the first article I wrote might actually mean the first article I wrote. Of course not, it's all a plot. So you want to take this guy out and "whack him upside the head with one of those foam rubber bats". Maybe you should invite me to help. I'm a pretty tough guy. No, that wouldn't work. I would ask the fellow why he thinks what he does and tell him why I think what I do and maybe find out why we think different. That's unless I made it all up, then I might try to convince everyone that it's all a plot. Probably not, but that's just me. DHarjo 13:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Dance around this issue all you want sir. Foam-rubber bats are specifically used in therapy for stress relief not to force someone into doing something or cause damage, most people would understand such a reference. You have a standing invitation to help improve the article; but you must be respectful of differing views. You are CPret, sir, most people can see that by comparing your edit histories, writing style, and the tone of your arguement. -JCarriker 13:57, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

I came here because I thought I could help. Your answer was, "This has been discussed ad nauseum on the talk page, we already have good references supporting both arguements". You can say you have given references all you want, but I still can't find them. All I found was a bunch of argument. I don't think they exist. I don't get exactly what you're accusing me of but the New England comment was exactly the point. You want to change the name of the American West for no real reason I can tell. You're the one trying to buffalo people or you would talk to the facts. Talking about naming conventions, you won't provide references, but I will. Some of them I own but I copied the rest from the bibliography pages. I could give plenty more but I got tired of looking up isbns:

  • Beck, Warren A; Historical Atlas of the American West; University of Oklahoma Press, Oklahoma, 1989. ISBN 0806121939
  • Haase, Ynez D; ibid.
  • Burns, Ken; The West; PBS Documentary, 1996. ISBN 078061352X (PBS The West
  • Ives, Stephen; ibid.
  • Deverell, William. A Companion to the American West; Blackwell Publishers, 2004. ISBN 0631213570
  • Lamar, Howard; The New Encyclopedia of the American West; Yale University Press, 1998. ISBN 0300070888
  • Library of Congress. The American West; A Changing Cultural Landscape
  • Milner II, Clyde A.; The Oxford History of the American West; Oxford University Press; Reprint edition, 1996. ISBN 0195112121
  • O'Connor, Carol A.; ibid.
  • Sandweiss, Martha A.; ibid.
  • Phillips, Charles; The Encyclopedia of the American West; Simon & Schuster, New York, 1996. ISBN 0028974952
  • Axlerod, Alan; ibid.
  • Ridge, Martin; The American West: The Reader; Indiana University Press, 1999. ISBN 0253212901
  • Nugent Walter T. K.; ibid.
  • Steffen, Jerome; The American West: New Perspectives, New Dimensions; University of Oklahoma Press, Oklahoma, 1982. ISBN 0806117443
  • Szasz, Ferenc Morton; Religion in the Modern American West; University of Arizona Press, 2002, ISBN 0816522456
  • Wilkinson, Charles; The American West: A Narrative Bibliography and a Study in Regionalism; University of Colorado Press, 1989. ISBN 0870811819
  • White, Richard; It's Your Misfortune and None of My Own: A New History of the American West; University of Oklahoma Press. Reprint edition, 1993. ISBN 0806125675

DHarjo 13:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Protection

I've protected this page for the time being. Please settle dispute on this talk page. --nixie 12:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Okay...

...what is the problem? I am a neutral party, I don't even remember anymore why I have this page on my watchlist; I think I did a disambig or minor copyedit or something to it months ago. So what exactly is the issue here? There seems to be a lot of hand-waving over something I can't fathom. · Katefan0(scribble) 14:57, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Neutral? That’s not the feeling I got from your first answer. However, this article has at least three major to middling problems. The first is the name. If this article is really about the American West, it has a non standard title. I have furnished a lot of reference to show that and can furnish a whole lot more. I could have named my first article "A Native American fair in Oklahoma", instead of "American Indian Exposition". It would have been sort of correct but it could have been about a lot of other things too. So is naming this article Western United States.
Second, and maybe the more serious, if this is really about the American West then the map and the first section are both incorrect and entirely misleading. As I told you before, there is absolutely no serious comprehensive study of the American West that ignores Texas north through the Dakotas and the Pacific coast states. Never, never, ever been done. I don't think the writer has any sources saying otherwise or he would have given them. I think the writer is just trying to foist his own personal view of the West on everybody else in order to fit his own personal view that Texas is only sometimes part of the West.
Third, and more minor, is the second section which looks like an essay. Maybe it can be flagged someway so an editor who knows the subject can fix it. I wouldn't know where to start.
Like I also told you before, I think the "cite your sources" statement is just hot air. It looks to me like anyone can write anything with out giving any proof and can talk anyone into believing it. If you really want to find out about this subject, you might want to read up on it. Reading one book won't make you an expert, but you might try the Oxford history book listed above, It's as good as any and better than most. If you don't want to read such a big book, you might try getting The American West: A Twentieth Century History by Malone and Etulain (ISBN 0803230931). It's a lot shorter but only deals with the 17 most western states. DHarjo 13:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Sir, perhaps you are unaware that everyone knows that you, DHarjo, are a sockpuppet of CPret, so please quit pretending you have no knowledge of previous conversations. I have provided you with links, freely accessable to anyone, to other defintions on June 10, 2005 at Talk:American West, you ignored them. Before that I provided you with links that showed your interpretation of WP:USR policy was wrong and that proved your memory of the content of U.S. West was incorrect, you ignored them as well. Yes I do object to Texas, California, Oklahoma and others being forced into a region they are sometimes excluded from and don;t always identify with. I also object to your permanent exclusion of Alaska and Hawaii and to your attempts to disregard the most well known defintion of the Mississippi. While I have my suspicions about your intentions I have always endeavored to word them on these two talk pages in a passive and uncertain tone; rather than the ad hominem personal attacks you have launched against others and myself. To refresh your memory sir you are the one who knowingly created a duplicate article condemning the original article in a POV manner—throughout the duplicate article, as well as nominating an article in bad faith for deletion, after you saw you weren't going to get your way. You have also continually ignored evidence that contradicted you and refused to engage in debate, prefering circular arguements. Your violations of policy and standing threat against this article, leave me no alternative than to seek help from the rest of the community in dealing with you. -JCarriker 16:05, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

You can repeat lies all you want but they'll never become true that way. I guess we can all consider the source. Since you claim to be old enough for college, I'm going to give you a piece of professional advice. You need to take a class in what ever your school calls its "Professional Ethics" course. If you do in the real world what you're doing here you can end up in serious trouble. Fired, in court, or worse. Even journalists claim some ethics and standards for sources. One of these days you're going to find out that no matter what you know about a thing, there a tons of people that know more. There's no crime in admitting you made a mistake. Are you going to fix the map and the name or do you want me to? Here's another list of references for you. I got some of them from the American West page, but you ignored them over there. DHarjo 04:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Bonnifield, Paul. The Dust Bowl: Men, Dirt, and Depression. University of New Mexico Press, Alquequerque, New Mexico, 1978. ISBN 0826304850.
  • Hamil, Harold. Colorado Without Mountains, A High Plains Memoir. The Lowell Press, Kansas City, Missouri, 1976. ISBN 0913504335
  • Malone, Michael P.; Etulain, Richard W. The American West: A Twentieth Century History. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, Nebraska, 1989. ISBN 0803230931
  • Richardson, Albert D. Beyond the Mississippi. 1867, Johnson Reprint Corp, reprint edition, 1967. ISBN 0384506704
  • Utley, Robert M. The Story of the West. Smithsonian Institute, Hydra Publishing LLC. ISBN 0789496607
  • Winther, Oscar Osburn; Van Orman, Richard A. A Classified Bibliography of the Periodical Literature of the Trans-Mississippi West (1811-1967). Greenwood Press Reprint, 1973. ISBN 0837164753
  • Wishart, David J. Encyclopedia of the Great Plains. University of Nebraska Press, 2004. ISBN 0803247877
  • Worster, Donald. Dust Bowl: The Southern Plains In The 1930s. Oxford University Press, 2004. ISBN 0195174895
  • Worster, Donald. Under Western Skies: Nature and History in the American West. Oxford University Press, reprint edition 1994. ISBN 0195086716
Sir, your behavior is most uncalled for. Your views have been included in the article; you must learn to accept that other people and other sources (examples of which you have been provided with on this page) have different opinions of what constitute the West. No one has tried to suppress your views, please do not try to suppress other views. Your personal attacks against me only hurt your own cause, I urge you to consider not making them in the future. -JCarriker 05:11, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Peeking in for the first time, I'm not entirely sure what Dhjaro is going on about, nor am I certain what precisely he the books he cites are supposed to prove (I do not recall Worster's Dust Bowl, for example, trying to define the West geographically, but then it's been a while since I read it). As another caveat, I'm not familiar with the discussions as to naming conventions, so I won't address that particular one. I'm just looking at what we have here at the article, Western United States. I could be off-base, and if I am, please enlighten me.
Looking at the article, I think what it seems to be lacking is a historical perspective. Definitely in the beginning the West was everything west of the Mississipi, and Texas was/is considered to be both South and/or West at particular points in its history, and even today has an odd amalgamation of both Southern and Western culture depending on where, geographically, you look (Neil Foley's The White Scourge: Mexicans, Blacks, and Poor Whites in Texas Cotton Culture talks about this to some extent). Of course, the current Census Bureau definition excludes certain states, but that's not always been true. If I may be bold enough to suggest that to try and satisfy all sides, we should go into some more detail about how the perception (and definition) of the West in American culture has changed over the last century and a half or so. --khaosworks 05:41, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your insight a great deal. I would love to see the article include something of that nature. It soo nice to have someone on the talk page, that offers a productive dialogue. Thank you, very much. -JCarriker 05:47, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
To add a bit more; perhaps some of the deadlock is because there is confusion between both sides about whether when we say "West" we mean a discrete geographical region; a place defined by particular relationships between people and the land and the government and each other; or a "frontier" process ala Frederick Jackson Turner. Perhaps what we need to do is also to try and define what the parameters of what this article is about. --khaosworks 06:13, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Khaosworks, sounds entirely reasonable. I'd also add, as an aside to DHarjo: I find it difficult to take your arguments seriously when they are peppered with incivility and personal attacks. · Katefan0(scribble) 07:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
To clarify I believe the article should be primarily eximplified by the areas that can be considered the modern West (everything west of the Mississippi) with a stong emphasis on the Censuse Bureau region with the stipulation that some in the Pacific states consider themselves in a region apart from the West. The article should also cite that TX-ND and LA-MN are not always considered part of the west either. The article should also touch on the expansive nature of the West and its evolution but leave most that material to Manifest Destiny and American Old West with link to them include in this article. In short, I have no problem with the mention of any of the pink states in the map being mentioned as being part of the West, but it should be stated that they are not always considered as being part of the West. Emphasis should be placed on the core states of the West which are red. -JCarriker 07:26, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps you could get a start on a sandboxed "Definitions" section that we can all edit. --khaosworks 07:47, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
I'll do that tommorrow. I should already be in bed. Again thank for your help. -JCarriker 07:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Khaosworks, you're right saying that regional works like Worster's Dust Bowl don't set boundaries for the greater region. I listed it because it shows that the Plains states have a common history and culture and that the Colorado and New Mexico sections can't be separated from the identical sections in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Or even the Dakotas. They are all part of the greater West. Worster's book is probably not a real good example since it looks to me more like some sort of partisan political book than a history book.
White's It's Your Misfortune and None of My Own identifies the West on page 4: "The geographical boundaries of the American West are not naturally determined; they were politically determined. The American West is that contiguous section of the continent west of the Missouri River acquired by the United States, beginning with the Louisiana Purchase of 1803; continuing through the acquisition of Texas, the Oregon Territory, and the Mexican Cession in the 1840s; and ending with the 1854 Gadsden Purchase of the lands between the Gila River and the present Mexican boundary." This is the standard area. The states from Texas through the Dakotas and California through Washington are always included. The few references that link the western states together without historical or cultural ties also include Alaska and Hawaii but even they always include the 17 western states. The Oxford book is one of those.
I haven't ever read the book on Cotton Culture so I can't say what it might mean. I did live in a lot of different cotton camps from Oklahoma to California when I was young. I didn't see anything I think of as Southern about it but I was very young. The part about the Mexicans is right though. Probably half the pickers in the camps were from Mexico. Very few blacks though.
The naming conventions at wikipedia seem pretty clear to me. If there's some sort of other convention, I didn't find it. The first list of references I gave were mainly to show the standard name for the region. I really have no hope that people here will ever pay any attention to references. DHarjo 05:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

The White Scourge focuses mainly on the history of Mexican and Chicanos in Texas, but Foley does make the argument somewhere in there that different parts of Texas are more reminiscent of the South and of the West, and other parts more West than South. But be that as it may, historians don't even agree on what constitutes the West, Richard White notwithstanding. Turner saw it as a process, a frontier. Webb, who wanted a region, simply drew the line at the 98th meridian (his definition is usually thought of these days as flawed). Others talk about the West in terms of aridity, others point to extremes of weather. Still there are others who see the West as both place and process, as the population expanded from the East Coast onwards. Be that as it may, I think it would be useful to simply present the differing definitions rather than exclude any of them, i.e. Historians have tried to define the West these various ways, but the Census Bureau demographically sets the boundaries here. I apologize for not having written up what I was promising to write up, but you will appreciate that I want to get it right, and that means spending time (and a bit of research to figure out who is saying what) on it which I don't have right now. Does this approach, however, sound reasonable to everyone? --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 05:32, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
  • That's fine with me. -JCarriker 08:46, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Turner's essay (The Significance of the Frontier in American History) points out that the census bureau said that by 1890 the frontier was gone. With the settlement of Oklahoma and Indian territories in the 1890s and the end of the Indian wars in South Dakota in 1890, most historians say about the same. What it means is that after 1890 there was no change to the borders of the West because of westward migration. After 1840 the West was really settled as much from west to east as from east to west anyhow.
If this article is supposed to be about the American West, the problem with using the Census map as a base is that you would have to show a reference that the Census Bureau intends this to be a description of the American West and that authorities on the West use it that way. I would use as a base the most common map of the West (PBS-The West) since these are the states agreed on by most authorities and by the government agency assigned to the West (Bureau of Reclamation regions). If you don't like White, try the maps in most of the other references. Some show more states but I don't think any show less. Of course all of this is only true if this article is really about the American West.
Here's a few more references that might help since some people want only online stuff. DHarjo 04:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Colours and appearance

I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] westernisms

i'm doing research on american western english. this has led me to doing research on various native american indian languages spoken in the american west. this is going to take me a while... Gringo300 10:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Strange map

This article has a really strange map. Can anyone give the source? BookCover 15:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This article has many maps, but you can find information about any image in Wikipedia by clicking on it.- choster 16:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
I try to furnish where the images come from. Image:US map-West.PNG does not indicate where one might go to see the original. For certain, it is not from one of the standard reference works (such as Historical Atlas of the American West). BookCover 00:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
"I made this -JCarriker 17:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)" - choster 18:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map is fine, but...

In which contexts is one likely to see Illinois and Wisconsin described as located in the Western United States? //Big Adamsky 02:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Illinois, Wisconsin, and most of Minnesota are definitely not western by almost any definition. All of these states are closely tied into the Great Lakes region, which is culturally, geographically, and otherwise completely distinct from the great American west. Wisconsin and Illinois are especially conspicuous given that they are east of the Mississippi, but no more "western" than any other state east of that river. Triphook 23:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

These maps are designed to incorporate multiple regional defintions of what the West should be. Minnesota is there because parts of it are west of the Mississippi, and at present the WikiProject that issues the maps does not partially shade states for logistical problems. Wisconsin and Illinois were included because one or several sources considered them to be in the West. I will try to find that source for you, meanwhile if you want the map changed please make a request to change it on the WikiProject U.S. regions maps talk page. Thanks. -JCarriker 19:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I can see Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota (although I don't agree with them) but under what definition is Louisiana considered the West? I don't think it's ever been considered that. The same goes for Arkansas, but less so. Papercrab 23:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polygamy

As was talked about here by Globeism (talk • contribs), the practice of polygamy was never legal in Utah as both the copy of this article and the graphic with Utah in red seem to imply. I do think that this article should mention the history of polygamy in what became Utah, but until someone writes a nice NPOV paragraph I'm going to remove ", and the only one where polygamy was once legal" and the graphic Image:Map of USA highlighting polygamy.PNG as they are both factualy incorrect. —A 07:02, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No State Income Tax

Living in Massachusetts, we learn constantly that New Hampshire has no state income or sales tax (the property taxes are through the roof though). --Quintucket 05:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is the West a region?

I am curious as to whether or not participants here consider the West a true region...in the sense of a coherent cultural entity as is, say, The South or New England?

My own opinion is that it is basically a part of the country largely characterized by post-bellum settlement, open spaces and true mountains, sparcer population and drier climate, a certain individualistic spirt, etc. But othewise, those states considered "western" are not really bound by any historic and deep ties of blood and soil and folkways. It seems to me the West is a collection of individual regions. For instance, Texas and Kansas can both be called western. They certainly shared the cowboy and cattle drive of western history. Yet, they were settled by wholy different peoples in the pre and post-"Civil War" migration. Texas is Southern in history, culture and outlook, and Kansas is truly midwestern. In a state like Nevada, the differences get even broader.

I would say Texas (and Oklahoma south of Oklahoma City) is the Western South. Northern Oklahoma and Kansas thru the Dakotas are the Plains Midwest. New Mexico and Arizona (and trans-pecos Texas) is the TRUE SouthWest.

I am on shaky ground here, cos I know nothing about it...but my lady friend (a native Coloradoan) says Colorado, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona is the true West (New Mexico and Arizona seem to be a part of a two!). Anyway, Montana, Idaho, Oregon and Washington are the "Northwest". And California is just California! LOL

[edit] Americans Wests

A good set of books on geographic and historical regions of the United States is D.W. Meinig's "The Shaping of America", check it out at your library. Volume 3, "Trancontinental America", focuses on the West. Meinig's theme is to talk about the American West as so multi-centered as to be better called American Wests. Although each sub-region is in the west and is in a larger sense part of the American West, they each have distinct histories and different physical geographies. Thus as a region, the West is much more a collection of sub-regions than is, say, New England. The sub-regions Meinig delineates are: California (meaning Gold Rush northern and central California, urban center of San Francisco); Southern California (urban center Los Angeles); Oregon and the Pacific Northwest (Oregon Trail roots; urban center first Portland, later Seattle (and Vancouver BC if you step over the border), and inland, Spokane); Zion/Deseret/Utah (roots in Mormon exodus; urban center Salt Lake City); New Mexico (roots in Spanish colony; urban center first Santa Fe, later Albuquerque); the Colorado Complex (including southern Wyoming; roots in Gold Rush; urban center Denver); and "The Rest of the West", with sub-sub-regions of Nevada, Boise Basin / Idaho, Montana, Wyoming & Black Hills; Arizona.

Just a recommendation of a book that might help people with this clunky article. Pfly 03:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polygamy in Utah/Politics in West

This article states the following: "modern Utah tolerates polygamy and has a long history of polygamous territorial leaders." That is a grossly innacurate statement. It is true that the Utah territory was once led by practicing polygamists, but MODERN Utah in no way, shape or form tolerates this practice. The vast majority of Utahns reject any form of polygamy, and recent law enforcement efforts targeting polygamists have increased significantly. The sentence should be removed from this artcile.

This article also implies that Orange County is the only metropolitan area in the West that leans toward the Republican party: "With the notable exception of Orange County, California, major urban centers on the Pacific Coast and throughout the West lean toward the Democratic Party." That is a false statement. Maricopa County, AZ (Pheonix), Utah County, UT (Provo-Orem) and Ada County, ID (Boise) are just a few of the several Western metropolitan areas that usually lean Republican.

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