Talk:West Highland White Terrier

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Contents

[edit] Done some removal of images and clearing up of justifications

Article I felt, was messy with too many images (2 of low quality) and paragraph titles being pushed out of place by the images. I have "been bold" and cleared this up, but I feel the article is still biased. (195.82.104.122 12:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Better picture; Removal of Picture

  • free license
  • this dog (Bassica) has better racial feautres
  • the icture of the westie in the pink sweater is unnecessary and not very good quality. This is not flickr. I propose for it to be deleted.

A.J. 14:17, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] olive oil for skin?

Can anyone cite a medical site or reference for this claim just added:

"Feeding a Westie a tablespoon of olive oil each week will assist in keeping the skin "hydrated.""

I thought I'd read somewhere that that was an old wives tale. Elf | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 21:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

How the oil will help with hydration I don't know. From what I have read, some people believe that the fatty acids in the oil will help with the dog's skin, but they usually recommend using a supplement instead as olive oil has a lot of calories. Here's an mention of corn oil: [1]

[edit] References

There are a lot of statements in the article that do not have references and seem, IMO, to be POV. Here are a few examples:

West Highland White Terriers are a breed of dog known for their spirited personality and brilliant white coat; their devotees often call them simply Westies. They are friendly, good with children, and thrive on lots of attention.

We need references for their personality and for their character (friendly with children?).

Some Westies have "brandy stains" on their backs and/or feet, but this is undesirable in show/breeding specimens.

We need references for the 'brandy stains' and a better explanation as to what they are and why they are undesirable (and who says so).

This one I don't know about; coats must be white per breed stds and anything else is a fault. Elf | Talk 03:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In short, I think the article needs a thorough cleanup. I will have a go somepoint soon - but if someone else can have a go it would be good. -localzuk 01:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Some items to be folded in/ref'd:
  • "...is all terrier and needs no pampering...thrives on plenty of attention...excitable temperament." New Encylcopedia of the Dog (cited in various articles)
  • "Full of self-esteem, this hardy, active, and game little dog... Breed is alert, courageous, and self-reliant, but makes a friendly and charming companion." Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds (ditto).
  • From FCI breed standard (haven't looked at others yet): "Small, active, game, hardly, possessed of no small amount of self-esteem with a varminty appearance. Alert, gay, courageous, self-reliant but friendly."
  • Yes, they're known for their white coat & they are called Westies. So far I don't see a specific mention of children but I've looked in only 2 books. Elf | Talk 02:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
  • More from the breed club listed in ext links:
"Are they good with children
This is highly dependent on adult supervision and the age of the children. If the adult in charge has taught the children proper respect for the puppy’s rights and care of the puppy, Westies and children can be a happy combination. Children, particularly 10 and older, can enjoy playing a good game of soccer or catch with a Westie. They are sturdy for their size.
No child should be the primary caretaker of any dog. This must be an adult’s responsibility.
Westies are not recommended for the home where children from the entire neighborhood gather to play. This can lead to too much excitement for a Westie and may lead to unintentional nipping."


OK, one more note in looking at the history page--looks like I added pretty much all the info ([2]) and since I'm not a westie expert, it all came out of books on my shelves. That was almost 2 years ago, before there started being a push to cite references for everything. For most the the dog articles that I filled in, I pulled a bunch of books out, read, made notes, consolidated the info, and created the article. As I started looking this stuff up (again), I remember how bloody long it took to assemble all this info & I'm not really in a mode of spending an hour or 2 doing the research all over again. So take a look at the history link to see what I added & rest assured that it all came from the breed standards and/or published mainstream books. For what it's worth. Elf | Talk 02:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bias

This article seems to fawn over Westies, and doesn't address their intelligence.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.166.19.197 (talk • contribs).

So Be Bold and do something about it. If you don't want to do that, what do you think is wrong with it? -Localzuk (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Westies are great with children and are really cute. From personal experience, Westies actually grow an attachment to one member of the family and for example: my Westie is expecially fond of me. When I walk into my house with the rest of my family, i am greeted first before anyone else. They are very sensitive while sleeping and perk up at any sign. When disturbed while sleeping, they growl. They often move while sleeping for example: biting at an imaginary item, moving their paws as if though they are playing with a ball, growling. They seem very interested in young children/babies as if though they are seeing another dog. (very interesting) They take long naps. They love walks and get agitated and bark when left alone for too long. or else they play with anything they have, often becoming destructive when left alone for even a few moments. A saying from Garfield is 'YOU HAD TO BUY HIM A DINGLE BALL RIGHT?!?!" I think this is because they have to do something and a common annoyancce is when the Westie wants to play, he starts playing with his favorite toy and then the Westie getting annoyed when not given the attention he wants and starts barking. They are highly inteligent but rare in parts of Korea." - I'm taking the liberty to remove this paragraph from the Temperament section as it is POV and doesn't sound academic Macdyne73 04:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)macdyne73
Good call! That para is terrible! -Localzuk(talk) 07:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing one photo

I am removing this image because I feel that it doesn't add to the article in any meaningful way, it's just a small, blurry, diagonal photo (that and the caption "westy is happy"). Pharaoh Hound 13:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images: How many are appropriate?

Indeed, many images have accrued again. Do they add to the content in the correct manner? For instance, would just one image convey the 'look' of the subject enough? I would expect more senior editors to revert or delete, so I have not done this, for concensus' sake. Refsworldlee 12:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

However, eventually I did. Refsworldlee 13:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Superfluous image

Could we please have a discussion about Image:Westie.JPG? Hopefully the contributor who keeps adding the image will join the discussion, and we can all decide once and for all whether it is in actual fact superfluous. It appears to me to be superfluous to the content because:

  • it does not add factually to the content
  • other images better serve the purpose of illustrating the Westie breed
  • other images are of better quality for that purpose.

Refsworldlee 13:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say that as it stands (as of this revision) it is fine. We have an example of the breed in the infobox, one of the 'smiley' look which is common to the breed, one of a pup and one wearing a kilt (although this one might be a little close to being silly - so I wouldn't lay down my life for it). Any others would be pointless.-Localzuk(talk) 17:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely agree - I can live with cute, kilt-wise. But the revision you quote above does not stay revised that way for long (check out the history). You are vastly experienced as an editor - do I pugnaciously remove it every time I see it re-entered, or leave well enough alone at some point? Refsworldlee 20:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I would say just go ahead and remove it each time it appears and ask the editor who added it not to and to come here and discuss it.-Localzuk(talk) 03:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm quite happy to enter any discussion about Image:Westie.JPG. I hope the editor who reinstates it so often will join us. Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 19:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

On the completely frank side--the photo's color is wrong and it's out of focus. Other than that, the only thing you can get from this photo is what the face is like, of which we already have two much better examples in the article that have the added benefits of showing the rest of the dogs' bodies, also. So, yes, just keep on removing it and referring to the talk page in your edit summary. Your invite to the user on their talk page is about the only thing that one can do. Elf | Talk 05:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change of section heading: "External links" to "References"

After discussion with another editor, who cited WP:EL guidelines regarding external linking to web sites, it became clear that the section headed "External links" was not only against those guidelines in its content, but actively encouraged the addition of links which were irrelevant to the main body of the article. I am hoping consensus can be gained retrospectively for the changes made today. The content of the References section now concentrates solely on confirming and expanding the sum total of the information laid out in the preceding article. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 21:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That should be something taken up with the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dog_breeds as this would affect all 500? 600? dog breed articles. Meanwhile, what was there just now was a complete duplicate of what was in the infobox, with no specific references in the article to any of the items, so I removed the section. It's been assumed that breed descriptions come from the cumulative info in the infobox. Maybe there's some way to state that explicitly in all the breed articles. Elf | Talk 03:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
My personal opinion is that any section headed "External links" is always a carrot for linkspammers, and there's no guarantee that links placed there will be necessary or relevant. I will of course always police this aspect while engaged in Wiki editing. However, if the project coordinators feel that West Highland White Terrier should have an "External links" section, then of course I would not revert its reintroduction. For my part, I would need to be totally convinced as to relevancy and necessity regarding any links placed there. It was established that additions to Rescue Organisations, for instance, were creating a link directory, and I am afraid I believe that also applies to Clubs & Societies, which is why all were removed. Their only relevance would have been if there was NO linking at all to Kennel Clubs & Councils i.e. as an aid to cite the information contained in the article, for example Breed Standard quotes.
I agree completely with the decision to remove the repeat linking to Kennel Clubs & Societies - I had not fully examined the linking in the infobox to be honest (I have not been editing for long!). Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I absolutely agree that it's an invitation for people to put links to their dog's photo pages or whatever. We've been fighting that ever since forever. But it is a wikipedia convention, not just the dog breeds convention. "References" has been reserved for items or sites that were specifically used to provide some of the content of the article, with relevant footnotes. So there needs to be some other heading for "other places with relevant encyclopedic information but that wasn't necessarily used in the creation of this article," and "External links" is what's been used. You could also consider going in, whenever you remove those inevitalbe extraneous links, and inserting a comment that's visible only when someone edits the list--like come up with a standard comment you can insert everywhere, similar to:
<!-- Add links only if they are noncommercial, encyclopedic or scholarly references, not personal or commercial sites. -->
I've done stuff like that before where there was some kind of common problem. Elf | Talk 05:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Great idea. Done. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 15:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria for "External Linking" - archived discussions outside this talk page

Hi. Below are copies of discussions which took place at User talk:Localzuk#Removal_of_links_which_might_be_considered_a_Link_Directory, and User talk:Refsworldlee#Links_on_Westie. Please feel free to cross-reference. Meanwhile, chronologically, they would look like this if included on this talk page:

Hi - I notice you have reduced the amount of external links contained at the bottom of the article West Highland White Terrier, citing WP:EL. Having read the resource, I am inclined to agree with you; however, I would like to know why, in your opinion, the remaining links should remain, and in what way they do not represent entries in a 'link directory'. This will further aid me in my experience as an editor and in making future balanced decisions whilst editing. Thanks! Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 20:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The remaining ones are actual Westie clubs so contain information directly relevant to the breed as a whole, compared with the rescue ones which are only specific to rescue (which is not a breed specific thing). However, I would not be against the removal of the remaining ones and links adding to the dmoz sections [3] which covers them all.-Localzuk(talk) 20:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Better still, linking only to Kennel Clubs (AKC, EKC, AusKC, etc.) for each country, under an altered section headed 'References' rather than 'External Links', which I think encourages poor use of the linking in the article. From those Kennel club sites, referrers could then obtain details of officially recognised Clubs AND Rescue Organisations. Would you be happy with that? Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 21:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed I would. Sounds like a good idea. -Localzuk(talk) 21:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. By the way, of course rescues are breed-specific - there are thousands. For example, the Westie Rescue Scheme was not formed to help any other breed, although of course by conscience it would. If that's the context in which you meant it? Just for argument's sake of course! Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 22:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is that all breeds have rescue centers and rescues, and thousands of them at that, but there are only a handful of proper breed clubs around the world but then the kennel clubs cover this anyway.-Localzuk(talk) 22:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

If you ever met me, you'd see that I have very few hairs I could spare to split, so sorry about that last comment - I see what you mean now! All the best Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 22:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. It's nice to have someone asking legit questions and not trolling like on many of the articles I work on. Cheers, Localzuk(talk) 23:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have incorporated these discussions into this page because of their relevance, and to help explain why any "External links" have to be very notable in themselves as references to the breed in the article (other than those links already contained within the infobox), otherwise they risk being removed. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 14:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image of Westie with Christmas hat on

Hi. How is this image relevant to the breed's visual depiction? We have one photo of a 'lion cut', relevant to grooming for showing, we have one to show typical 'happy' expression, we have one to show what a puppy looks like, and we have one which shows the very relevant clan tartan on the Westie. While the Christmas hat is cute, it doesn't have anything to do with the descriptive article it was added to. I have therefore removed the picture, and invite anyone to comment on this below, or on my talk page here. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a photo album. Merely re-adding the picture will be treated as possible vandalism, unless a good reason can be given for its inclusion. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 20:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Apartment dogs"

Hi. It's my understanding that the reference in the article to apartment dogs can be taken to mean dogs who either are not, or cannot be, given walks. To say that a Westie can be an apartment dog if given walks is therefore a total contradiction. I have explained this to one editor who added just that. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 22:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

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