Talk:Werner Herzog

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] See comments
This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group.
Portal:Germany
 Germany Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Comments:
This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Munich, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Munich on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Werner Herzog article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] This article has no substance

Although he is a fascinating human, I am sure that Herzog would resent the obsession with the minutae of his life that this article contains. Can we not write anything about his enormous body of work? (avoiding generalization, of course)

It is inappropriate to mention his work with Klaus Kinski in the opening blurb of the entry. As Herzog himself mentioned, Kinski made only five films with Herzog out of his total body of two-hundred and ten films; additionally, Herzog has made over fifty films, and again, only five were with Kinski. ZColeSmith 4-19-06

I completely disagree. It is highly significant that he lived in the same apartment as Kinski during his youth and like it or not, they both continue to be substantially defined by those five films, and their professional and personal relationship - a fact recognised by Herzog in his biogragraphical film, My Best Fiend as well as in Les Blank's Burden of Dreams.
Fanx 00:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree that this article is devoid of substance, and that everything about Kinski should be moved to a section about his relationship with Kinski. (Sombody)

Ich stimme zu. No doubt this article needs some major re-writing. The early life section is very scattered and poorly written. While I think his extreme excentricity is very important, many of the events listed in the intro should really be under triva. His relationship with Klaus Kinsky is worthy of mention up front, but definitely deserves its own section. If I get my hands on his biography I might be able to do better, but for now I can only complain. Notbot 03:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Main Image

I put in a picture of Werner from his official site. He's such a dashing guy. Excessivereason 16:17, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed the photo to a larger and very recent photo that is also released under the Creative Commons. Maybe the dashing photo could be further down? Notbot 08:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the official press photo looks better. Your photo has the "female fan" that really detracts from Werner. Professional photos nearly always look better than someone's digicam shots. Excessivereason 15:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to disagree with "excessivereason" on this one. though fan photos can be unprofessional and tacky, this one is pretty much the most current photo of him in which he doesn't look like he's 1) insane 2) a jerk 3) about to die. it also shows him totally proud of himself and connected with a sincere response from a fan. --midget submarines 28 November 2005.

I'm going to agree with those that say a professional photo would be better. The official photo of him in the thinkeresque pose is a very good one. The professional photos in addition to being much classier also tend to be of him when he is younger, which was when he was at the peak of his career. Furthermore, whenever their is a picture of him associated with a release, it tends to be the one I describe above, and is therefore how Herzog, it would seem, prefers to be presented. I also agree that having the female fan is distracting, this is a page for Herzog--not "Herzog and female fans." --Lholder 1033, 2005-12-3.

Yes, the main image (the professional head shot) isn't so hot. And why shouldn't he appear "insane"? That's his public persona. After all, this is the man who ate his shoe, who hypnotized his actors in Heart of Glass, who had a ship hauled over a mountain, who threatened to kill Klaus Kinski, who walked 500 miles across Europe to visit the dying Lotte Eisner, who took a crew to film a volcano moments before it erupted, etc etc etc. Sure, he's a showman. But maybe a bit insane too. I think a "crazy" photo would do him justice. -- piltdown 12/14/2005.

Ha, it looks like someone put the fan photo back up. I think the fan photo looks very odd, it looks like Herzog is at a sleazy party, and his stance is very funny. I think it is inappropriate though, the only people I can imagine wanting it to remain is the woman in the picture and people who find want to laugh. There are much better pictures out there, I'm sure. (NOBODY)

Now it looks like someone added a different photo from his official website (Image:Herzogpic.jpg). I am satisfied with this one because it actually captures a bit of his essence. Although it could use a description. My guess is that it's from Cobra Verde and was taken in Ghana, anyone agree? The original is also much higher res, but again, not under a free license so the small version might be safer. Notbot 02:12, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Onion

A recent review in The Onion AV club has a lot to say about this guy, including the fact that he once ate his shoe upon losing a bet. Pretty intense, and perhaps encyclopedic.--Joel 06:26, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


That's not very obscure Trivia at all - Les Blank made a film about it, appropriately titled, "Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe"

[edit] Other

Herzog as actor Herzog appeared as himself in the the spoof documentary "Incident at Loch Ness"


[edit] Quotations

I agree quotes really don't need to be on the pedia page when there are wikiquotes. Excessivereason 21:58, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


Perhaps some of the quotations should be removed? There's already a link to wikiquote for those that want to read this guy's ramblings. Having so many quotes in the article kind of clutters things up, in my opinion. Does anyone else agree? 207.6.31.119 02:32, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Alright, I've moved quotes to the wikiquote article, leaving about four. I chose the four in a completely arbitrary manner, so if anyone wants to switch them with other quotes, go ahead, but lets try to keep it to a maximum of five quotes or less. 207.6.31.119 07:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

Herzog is a native of Germany. He was born outside of Munich near the Austrian border, but his family originally comes from parts of Germany now in Poland. His original name is Stipetic, like his brother/producer Lucki.
Thank you! More accurate information please. I thought that Croatian origine. --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I worked with Werner on Cobra Verde and the director is very much proud of his Serbian ancestry. His Father was Bunjevac of Sebian heritage so you can take that as evidence he would know what he was. Salvatore B.

Thank you so much anonymous IP. I am really convinced! Do you by any chance know who is responsible for Kennedy's murder? EurowikiJ 15:27, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Werner would laugh at this.

Everyone seems to agree that Herzog was born in Germany. [1]. How important is it whether he is ethnically Serbian or Croatian (or Polish)? It appears his father was Croatian and his mother German [2] according to the sources I could find. As far as having heard him say differently, hearsay is not a reliable reference, especially from a person who is notoriously unreliable when it comes to his personal history. About half of the stories floating around about Herzog are apocryphal. Personally, I think that whether or not he's half Croatian is unimportant.--Staple 03:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

When you belong to a small nation, it is very important. You fight for every man and a woman you have. Kubura 14:37, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, if we're going to get technical (and we are), he was born in Germany from a German woman's womb. It's hard to get more "original" than that. He is of German origin. His father is a Croat. He is a German of half-Croatian (or Serbain or Martian) ancenstry. But as far as I know, none of his films deal directly with this issue. Herzog has a page here on Wikipedia because he is a noteworthy filmmaker, not because he has a noteworthy ethnicity. So, I still think that if we can't come to a consensus we can get away with leaving the information out. Thanks--Staple 18:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
All right Solomon! :-p I think this is the perfect solution, just excise the whole issue from the article, but I have a feeling it won't stop this particularly bizarre and entertaining edit war. MrBook 19:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Yep. This way everyone can get half a baby.;)--Staple 19:19, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. But nobody reads the discussion page--they just make their changes by rote and leave. 154...seems to be the worst offender. Somebody needs to call in the UN Peacekeeping troops.--Staple 17:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. I was briefly afraid that I'd jinxed it, but it's probably just a lost cause one way or the other. Even if he reads the talk page, he doesn't care. "You're right, Charlie Brown... talking to Lucy is exactly like talking to a brick wall." MrBook 14:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


To confuse Anonymous even more: Heritage does not always mean ethnicity. If, for example, his father was a Croat but had a lot of Serb friends (imagine the paradox), then Werner-kun could have gotten a lot of Serb heritage, right? So your task is to find an article where he says that his father was Serb. Go! --GunnarRene 17:58, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sprotect

I've sprotected this page, due to what looks like multiple IP socks used to evade a 3RR ban. Complaints below, please William M. Connolley 20:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

No complaints. Thank you. EurowikiJ 23:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Herzog is half-Croat, it's well known. Some links below:

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/cteq/01/19/aguirre.html

http://www.danceage.com/biography/sdmc_Werner_Herzog

http://psychcentral.com/psypsych/Werner_Herzog —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.131.230.178 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 11 June 2006.

Actually 2 of your links support that he is Serbian heritage and the the Petz (sp) article has been in dispute for years. Herzog has mentinoned in an interview that he has Serb roots. Wouldn't Herzog know what his own background was?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 154.20.148.186 (talk • contribs) 16:11, 12 June 2006.
Those two articles I have linked are wikipedia mirrors. He is of Croatian origin. If you said he said it in interview, please send link to that interview then. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.131.245.193 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 12 June 2006.
Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources agrees that this mystery magazine should be cited. But i struck out those wikipedia mirrors, because a previous version of this article is not a reliable source for itself. --GunnarRene 17:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Also to mention that Stipetić in not Serbian surname. http://www.belestrane.nadlanu.com/site/ : no telephone registereed on any Stipetic in Belgrade http://www.tportal.hr/imenik/ : many stipetics is Zahreb, over140 actually—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.131.245.193 (talk • contribs) 19:50, 12 June 2006.

German Wikipedia (different article than English Wikipedia) also Claims Herzog is an Croat http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Herzog—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.131.233.11 (talk • contribs) 05:07, 30 June 2006.

not a credible source in the matter. Please remember to sign your posts. --Crossmr 05:35, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats 3 reverts today. Discuss the changes here on the talk page and reach a concensus to his nationality. Provide credible sources and make the appropriate change on the article. Continued reversion is going ot lead to blocks. --Crossmr 16:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

The page was semi-protected again by an admin, and should hopefully remain so until a concensus is reached. I've placed this matter here: Wikipedia:Current_surveys#Articles to request more input and hopefully reach a concensus. --Crossmr 17:22, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, I came here from the RfC... Like most people coming here from the RfC, I would suppose, I have no idea of the exact details of Herzog's ethnic heritage and no way to find out. Why not just leave it the way it is, his mom was a Yugoslavian (or just say Southern Slav if you prefer). The fact is, he's German by culture... actually, who cares really. The people revert-warring over this should consider that they're playing into a negative stereotype if you get my drift, do they really want that. Block 'em. Herostratus 00:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of Yugoslavian father

The argument for keeping Stipetić, Herzog's father, as a Croat is that it's a Croatian name. That is the only point that sounds convicing to me so far. All other points, from both sides, have been totally unreferenced or attempted sourced in unreliable sources. --GunnarRene 20:06, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

According to a recent edit [3], Herzog's father's family self-identify as Serbian and live in Bosnia-Herzegovina. The blog does not fit the definition as a reliable source, but it's enough that I change it back to Yugoslavian.--GunnarRene 16:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

If it doesn't fit the definition of a reliable source, then its not a reliable source and you shouldn't be basing content of an article on it.--Crossmr 20:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not directly basing content on it, but rather as a source of doubt about including something else. At this point, we don't have any reliable sources on this matter, so the father stays Yugoslavian for the time being.--GunnarRene 22:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
If its not a source of reliable information, its not a source of reliable doubt. If we have no reliable source on his ancestry, any mention of it should be removed. Insisting it stay Yugoslavian without source is tantamount to WP:OWN.--Crossmr 23:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind if the nationality of his parents were removed. I put in the "citation needed" template after all. It's just that nobody has ever tried to dispute that his father is from the former Yugoslavia; we had edit warring over whether he was Serb or Croat. --GunnarRene 01:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section clean-up

The trivia section is sprawling and unsourced. I've started the journey of 1000 miles but cutting this bit of trivia:

*Herzog shot his first film, Signs of Life, on the Greek island of Kos where his grandfather, Rudolph Herzog, worked as an archeologist and discovered the asclepieion, a sanctuary dedicated to the demigod Asclepius.

Considering that "Herzog" is a name that he adopted later and not his birth name, I find this one to be rather dubious. If someone can find a source, we'll put it back in. At some point this week, I'll go through the trivia section with a fine-toothed comb, and I hope others do, too. A Train take the 23:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll help. This line has no relevance to a Herzog article:
*In 1990 a Joy Division-influenced band named themselves The Stroszeks. They split up in 1992.
DanBeale 17:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont think you can ever have to much Trivia! kstan1

There's way too much trivia on the page. I've moved it here so that it can either be reworked into body text, or deleted, as appropriate. So of this stuff is important, some of it is interesting without being important, but much of it is fluff. DanBeale 11:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

---

Dan Beale the trivia nazi has expunged what was hands-down the most popular and widely-read section of the Herzog page. Why? Because it's "sprawling and unsourced." It "sprawls" at the rate of about one new trivium per month because, like any cult figure, Herzog has grown inseparable from the motherload of lore about him. Hell, he contributes to it! -- witness his recent 'live' shooting injury while hiking the Hollywood hills on BBC TV. And although I didn't write any of the trivia, four of the so-called unsourced factoids I heard come out of his mouth at public appearances in Los Angeles. It's irresponsible to hold diarists of a notoriously elusive film director, whose colorful quotes and deeds occur in the freakin' jungle, to some arbitrary Library of Congress standard, thereby spoiling it for the rest of us. I vote to put back the trivia. -- Egomet Bonmot

BEGIN TRIVIA SECTION CUT AND PASTE DanBeale 11:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

This article contains a trivia section.
Content in this section should be integrated into other appropriate areas of the article or removed, and the trivia section removed.
  • Once walked on foot (in a literal straight line through fields and forests) from Munich to Paris to visit an ailing friend, critic and poet Lotte Eisner. The experience is recounted in Herzog's book Of Walking in Ice (ISBN 0-934378-01-0).
  • Once ate his own shoe after promising to do so in an attempt to inspire then-fledgling filmmaker Errol Morris. Morris was interested in making a film about a pet cemetery (Gates of Heaven) and Werner believed Morris was not ambitious enough to do so. This story was the subject of a documentary by Les Blank called Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe (1980).
  • "Game in the Sand" has never been released and to date has only been viewed by a handful of individuals. Herzog has expressed that this film grew "out of control" during filming, and that he would never publicly release it and that he was considering destroying the negatives before his death. It is purportedly about four children and a rooster.
  • While filming Aguirre, the Wrath of God, Herzog rested his arm on a tree and mistakenly pulled down a branch that was the home of thousands of fire ants. They all fell on top of him and he was stung approximately 150 times before he got them all off. Soon after, he developed a fever but decided not to cease filming. [citation needed]
  • On January 26, 2006, Herzog helped to rescue actor Joaquin Phoenix when his car overturned after a brake malfunction on a winding road in Laurel Canyon, CA, near Herzog's home. As Phoenix described it: "I remember this knocking on the passenger window. There was this German voice saying, 'Just relax.' There's the air bag, I can't see and I'm saying, 'I'm fine. I am relaxed.' Finally, I rolled down the window and this head pops inside. And he said, 'No, you're not.'"
  • It is often rumoured that Herzog filmed Kinski at gunpoint in Aguirre, Wrath of God because he had made attempts to leave the set. Herzog himself has claimed that this is a gross exaggeration. His own version of these events can be seen in "My Best Fiend" and read in the interview book "Herzog on Herzog" - in which he states that Kinski threatened to leave the set and he informed the volatile actor that if he did, Herzog would have eight bullets in Kinski's head and one in his own before Kinski reached the first bend in the river.
  • On 3 February 2006, it was reported that Herzog was shot by a crazed fan during a BBC interview. Herzog was chatting with Mark Kermode about his documentary Grizzly Man, when a sniper opened fire with an air rifle. Kermode thought a firecracker had gone off. Herzog said afterwards, "It was not a significant bullet. I am not afraid." [1]
  • The original vinyl release version of Joy Division's posthumous album Still featured the following groove notation: "The chicken won't stop" (side A), etched chicken tracks across the grooves (sides B & C), and "The chicken stops here" (side D). These are all references to Stroszek's grim finale.
  • Once jumped into a cactus patch after one of his actors, a dwarf, caught on fire and was run over by a car while filming (stating "I'm going to jump into a cactus if you all survive."). He allowed the crew to film and take photographs of him attempting the stunt and said afterwards that it was more painful climbing out of the cacti than it was diving in. Herzog confessed to Les Blank that one of the spines remains in his knee to this day. [citation needed]
  • In 2006, Lee Kazimir from Chicago travelled from Madrid to Kiev on foot following Werner Herzog's quote about this being the true way to learn about the world.
  • Claims not to dream at night and is so opposed to the idea of self-reflection that he "swear[s] to God" that he does not even know the color of his own eyes. (They are blue)
  • Has a tattoo of Death on his upper right arm.

END TRIVIA SECTION CUT AND PASTEDanBeale 11:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../w/e/r/Talk%7EWerner_Herzog_2fb1.html"