Talk:Welsh rabbit

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Contents 1 cheese on toast 2 Welsh rarebit 3 nightmares 4 POV notice 5 similar dishes 6 Discussion of name (old and new) 6.1 name 6.2 Name change 6.3 Further Name comment 6.4 Article should be moved to Welsh rarebit 6.5 Move to Welsh rarebit

[edit] cheese on toast

I get the impression 'cheese on toast' and 'Welsh rarebit'/'rabbit' aren't quite the same thing. Cheese on toast tends to be simply made of cheese and toast. OK, so the toast may've been buttered, and we used to often add paprika, but that's a bit of an aside. And we sliced the cheese rather than grating it, as is probably common. One cookery book said of its Welsh rarebit (forgive me if it's not the exact words): "This may seem a lot of effort to make cheese on toast, but it is a superior product." -- Smjg 13:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't think they have really diverged yet, but I do agree that anyone who calls it "Welsh rabbit" (or even "Welsh rarebit") is likely to be taking more care over it, and maybe adding ingredients of their own devising, because it implies some degree of awareness that it is an actual recipe not just an accidental combination of ingredients. I think paprika improves it, too - and have you tried a sprinkling of oregano? seglea 18:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I personally recommend: Start with a half-cup of good brown ale, warm in a saucepan, stir in some English mustard (e.g., Coleman's), a shot of Worchestershire sauce, and enough grated extra-sharp Cheddar to make a good, thick glop. Meanwhile, take some slices of a hearty bread (sourdough is good, whole wheat is better) and put in a 300 degree oven until dry and toasty, turning once. Apply glop liberally to toast, and consume with the rest of the ale (unless you drank it while cooking). JHCC 18:52, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I was brought up in Wales (although I'm not convinced the dish is Welsh; carrying as it does a slur on the Welsh in its name), and to me a rarebit was always a completely different dish to cheese on toast. The distinction was that rarebit was grilled cheese sauce not simply cheese. The sauce was made with flour, milk and cheese, optional beer, and mustard by personal preference. Now I'd love to claim that my definition is the only right one, but I can't -- but based on the number of alternate definitions on this Talk page, let's just agree that the entry needs to make it absolutely clear that nobody has a canonical recipe. I can't think of any source that could be considered canonical in this matter; for example even if Leith's Cookery Bible, or Mrs Beeton were to say it was just cheese on toast, anyone brought up on a different recipe would consider these sources wrong Ukslim 07:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The difference between cheese on toast and welsh rabbit it the fact that Welsh Rabbit requires the cheese to be grated and mixed with further ingredients before being toasted on the bread. Cheese on Toast simply requires that the cheese be sliced or grated and placed on the bread before toasting. Cheese on Toast is always grilled with the cheese on, I know of noone who would prepare a slice of toast and then place a piece of cold cheese on it and call it cheese on toast as this article suggests. I have reworded the article somewhat to make this distinction clear, lest some poor unfortunate follow the original suggestion and end up with Cold Cheese served with Toast.

... And since when was butter ever involved? I once (and only once) tried buttering the toast before putting the cheese on it and it tasted vile. The cheese negates the need for any butter, and sure enough I have never known anyone to use butter in the making of cheese on toast until it was suggested here... and I've seen (and eaten) a lot of cheese on toast made by different people. I guess some folks are just too butter-happy. ~ SotiCoto (23/01/2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.33.121.133 (talk) 13:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Welsh rarebit

My grandmother was from the foothills of the Appalachias. She made a dish, which I guess is an American version of this, which my mom called Welsh rarebit. It was an open-faced toasted/broiled cheese sandwich, topped with tomato soup.

[edit] nightmares

the was a recent study on nightmares cause by cheese, that would be a good source.

"Cheese dream" is a pretty common term throughout Britain as far as I'm aware.

It's unlikely to be "gastrointestinal irritation" so I removed that sentence. Cheese is well known (citation reqd) for inducing dreams. Think neurotransmitters, not bowel movement! 89.243.35.26 11:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV notice

I have added a POV notice, which appears to have been written with an agenda of supporting the article title by asserting that the opinions of the OED are fact and all other opinions are patently inferior. Pinoakcourt 01:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the section. I think it's now un-POV enough. All we need now is a source for rarebit being more common that rabbit (it clearly is, but we do need a source for it). garik 11:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] similar dishes

The Hot Brown, a regional dish from Kentucky, adds a slice of turkey breast between the toast and sauce.

[edit] Discussion of name (old and new)

[edit] name

Moved from article: Now isn't that a debatable issue. I lived in England during the war in the home of a Welsh woman from Cardiff and she served me WELSH RAREBIT for breakfast. - Kaesemankin, Jan 18, 2004 - David Gerard 15:00, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've never heard it called welsh rabbit - only ever welsh rarebit. Arkady Rose 18:06, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

just have a look in any good dictionary... unfortunately the erroneous "rarebit" is propagated by cookbooks, but like all euphemisms (and unlike the dish itself!) it deserves to be stamped on. seglea 18:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

If it is the normal term it should be used. And it is the normal term. Language should be controlled by real people, not be pedantic lexicographers. Cookery writers and cooks decide what to call food, and if lexicographers are too stubborn to follow them they are just being silly pedants. Pinoakcourt 01:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

I've moved this page to Welsh rarebit. That is what the food is called. As someone who has lived in Wales all my life, I consider myself an authority on this. The dubious archaic form, 'Welsh rabbit', is just that - an archaic form. Is London a redirect to Londinium? No, it is not. The most common name is used. Alternate names should redirect to this page. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Proto t c 12:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm Welsh enough that I speak the language, but in English I call it Welsh rabbit - I don't see how our backgrounds make either of us an authority, though. Garik 16:05, May 12 2006 (BST)

And I have changed it right back again; all my life it's been called "Welsh rabbit". But it's not my experience, or any other individual editor's, that counts, it is the recorded usage. OED is authoritative for UK English, and (in the constantly updated online edition) it is about as unambiguous as it could be:

Welsh rabbit: A dish consisting of cheese and a little butter melted and mixed together, to which are added ale, cayenne pepper, and salt, the whole being stirred until it is creamy, and then poured over buttered toast: also, simply, slices of toasted cheese laid on toast.

Welsh rarebit: [An etymologizing alteration of prec. There is no evidence of the independent use of rarebit.]

It may be that there is a Welsh/elsewhere difference here, which would be really interesting if so, because it would perhaps imply that an original disparaging sense was still understood in Wales 250 years on whe it has long been forgotten elsewhere (the English stereotype of the Welsh having changed completely over that period, from stupidity and thievery to rugby and choirs). But I know of no evidence of that.

seglea 20:44, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Further Name comment

I have edited the article to remove the phrasing that 'welsh rarebit' is erroneous. Whether this is the correct name as recorded or not, it is bias to suggest that this common usage is in any way 'wrong'. The article did not suggest that the name 'cheese on toast' is wrong...!

As for the two items of food being different... yes, this is perhaps true, but I suspect so few people are concerend with this (or know about it even...) we can safely keep the two practices and names together. fatbarry2000 10:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

• Im a Brit and seen the use of the name Welsh rarebit much much more than welsh rabbit.I think the article overstates the prevalence of the rabbit name by a fair degree. is there any reference that can support the argument for the prevalence of the rarebit name? Bwithh 04:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • elsewhere the original form is sometimes preserved (and everywhere the pronunciation is "rabbit"). I want to state that this is not universally correct as it pretends; I am an American living in the west. I was raised on what we called "rarebits". We didn't use the word "Welsh", and I had no idea they were called "Welsh rabbits" at all until I ran across the term somewhere else (and had to look it up!) It was simply a family recipe (in our family we actually add hot and soy sauce to the mix—I'm not sure how my grandparents made it), and as none of my friends had had it, I didn't think it might have been a common dish elsewhere. The Jade Knight 04:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that "(and everywhere the pronunciation is "rabbit")." is not true. It is just false, a lie if you will. I thought maybe it was just me, but a quick straw poll revealed that everyone I know pronounces 'rarebit' as 'Rare-bit'. Hence I am removing this bit.

Also, Rarebit seems to be the more common name. The 'correcting' back to the older form has had favour recently, but that doesn't make it more 'correct', nor more prevalent.11:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)

This was a euphemism based on folk etymology (that is, this was a new word made up by people who didn't understand why the dish was called "rabbit").

Either it was a euphemism, or it was an 'overcorrection' following folk entymology. It can't be a euphemism if people didn't understand the meaning of the original; there would be nothing for them to euphemise.

I'm Welsh, and I call it Welsh rabbit, but 'Welsh rarebit' is no more 'wrong' than the spelling 'hiccough' for hiccup. Also based on false etymology, but still acceptable. Garik 18:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)

[edit] Article should be moved to Welsh rarebit

Welsh rabbit may have been the original term, but Welsh rarebit is far more common; Google returns 63,500 for "Welsh rabbit" versus 181,000 for "Welsh rarebit". 203.122.193.200 07:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed above (and you may want to add to that existing discussion).

Atlant 16:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Welsh rarebit

Whether some people like it or not that is the overwhelming usage. If it is the normal term it should be used. And it is the normal term. Language should be controlled by real people, not be pedantic lexicographers. Pinoakcourt 01:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it the 'normal term'? I've always known it as Welsh rabbit, a edirect from Welsh rarebit, together with an explanation of the different terms should be sufficient.DuncanHill 08:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I was born in the UK, and have lived in New Zealand and various parts of the US. It has been "rarebit" all the way. Also note that Google has far more hits for "welsh rarebit" than "welsh rabbit". A direct from Welsh rabbit would be better, I'd think. Subtilior 21:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I also found the title here wrong. I live in England and my mother's family are Welsh, we have always said 'welsh rarebit' and I've always thought that those who say 'welsh rabbit' had heard wrong or never seen the term written down. Here's a recipe from the BBC Wales site: [1] Steve-g 13:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The OED is hardly an authoritative reference when it comes to cooking. I never even heard it called "rabbit" before I found this article. I vote "rarebit", and that seems to be the majority opinion, with only seglea and Garik dissenting 24.205.91.162 10:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've moved 24.205.91.162's comment down here — I hope you don't mind —, because this is where the issue's being discussed now. I would point out that I agree completely that "rarebit" is the majority form (though ideally we need a source for that, should one exist), whatever I call it myself. I think the page should be moved. What I do disagree with is people using their Welsh background as evidence. I'm Welsh and call it "Welsh rabbit". So what though? It's not a Welsh name — its only connection with Wales and the Welsh is the attitude of the English towards us. Anyway, I'm pretty certain that rarebit is the majority form. I never said it wasn't. Let's move it. garik 11:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)