Talk:Welding

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	Welding is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 31, 2005.
Article Milestones Date Process Result May 9, 2005 Peer review Reviewed May 19, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted Current Status: Featured article

Welding won the award in the Articles - Natural science & Technology category in the first Wikimania writing contest

Welding is included in the 2006 Wikipedia CD Selection, or is a candidate for inclusion in the next version. Please maintain high quality standards and, if possible, stick to GFDL-compatible images.

This article has been selected for Version 0.5 and the next release version of Wikipedia. This Engtech article has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale.

This article is part of WikiProject Metalworking, an attempt to cleanup, categorize and expand Wikipedia articles related to metalworking. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page, where a list of open tasks is maintained.

The following users are actively contributing to this topic and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Spangineer (talk • contribs • email)

[edit] Stuff

anyone have any info on hammer welding? Suppafly 03:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

which kind came first and when was it invented? Aaronbrick 23:22, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

On the tv program Rough Science, they made what was basically thermite, out of a ground up aluminum can and rust from a shed as an oxygen source. The maker commented that this method has be used to weld railroad joints before. Anyone have any more info? --63.206.116.16 04:29, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shot welding

There is a stub on shot welding that isn't referenced here. The description makes it appear like a synonym for spot welding. Could somebody knowledgeable look into this? —Naddy 12:46, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Sure thing – I'm doing a bunch of research on this topic, though I will say that I've never heard of shot welding. It may be another name for another resistance welding process, like you suggested. I'll see what I can find. --Spangineer ∞ 13:35, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

The article was likely stubbed as a result of featuring my Pioneer Zephyr article on the front page today. I've copied the patent reference over to the article and merged shotwelding and shotweld into the latter name. The patent text describes the difference between shotwelding and spot welding. slambo 16:30, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well, I looked at the article and a little bit at the patent description, and all I see is a type of spot welding. Obviously, I need to study it more, but it looks like it's just a method of spot welding that is used on stainless steel. From my point of view, that means that the sentence "The train's construction included innovations such as shotwelding (not to be confused with spot welding) to join the stainless steel" on Pioneer Zephyr should actually be "The train's construction included innovations such as shotwelding (a specialized spot welding method) to join the stainless steel", and that the relation between the two should be better clarified in the shotwelding article. Spangineer ∞ 01:53, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] TIG Weld image

(posted by TTLightningRod) --Spangineer ∞ 19:12, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

Regarding the images that I'm looking for: I guess you could call them line drawings of the individual processes, such as SMA welding and GTA welding, as well as the torches used in GTA welding or Plasma arc welding. I'm not sure how easy that would be to do on CAD... I've done some work in CAD before as well and I tend to think that simply using drawing software would be easier. But my skills in that are limited – so far I've just done the uncomplicated joint design and HAZ images. Now, however, I'm not sure that those will be necessary for the welding article, since we a few more images of the processes used were just added. For the articles the individual processes, however, line drawings would be really useful.

Thanks for that picture of a fillet joint – we just have to figure out where to insert it. I'm planning to do some serious updating to the joinery article so that it includes welding joints as well, and that image could certainly be added there. On this article however, since such a small area is devoted to joint design, I'm not sure if it will fit. If you disagree, we can work something out, but I feel like this is just a general summary of joint design and that the images in the geometry section are of the type we need. Let me know what you think. --Spangineer ∞ 19:12, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

I choose to refrain from "strong opinion" as to what would be "best", so don't worry about having to debate that stuff out with me. Instead, I like to just put something (almost anything) in, and let time replace it with ever "better" imagery. CAD is not so tough, especially when I have a clear description of what someone wants, or what I want to illustrate. We could also just take real photos of the items you want. "TIG Torch", "Stick Electrode, in holder", "Wire Feed torch expelling wire"... things like that? Let me know... I'll put my boots on, and go out to the shop with my camera. TTLightningRod 19:35, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The benefit of line drawings is that you can "see" the inside of things like TIG torches that are otherwise quite mysterious, since you can't take a cross-section image with a camera. Still, photographs are awesome, and clear pictures of the torches used in all those processes would be great. We are in definite need of good pictures on the individual welding process pages. I'd love to see wikipedia become a much better source for manufacturing information. --Spangineer ∞ 21:02, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

A richer source for manufacturing information... you got that right. That will be fantastic. As for CAD, rendering with "cut away" or cross-sectioning can speak volumes. Clear photos too. I would ask that you get this started by deciding on a first image you most want. Define the items you want to point out, and any actions. You might be surprised with the speed and resulting illustration. But I would ask that you define the scope of this first part... I can get too carried away and waist time. TTLightningRod 16:32, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the awesome offer! I was just looking over the GMAW article, and boy, does it need help. There's hardly anything there, and half of the info is inaccurate besides. And since we have no pictures of GMA welding anywhere, it would be awesome to get a clear picture of a welder performing the welding (perhaps out of position; ie, not flat/horizontal), and a cross-sectional view of the weld area and the torch - I'm thinking of something that shows the base metal, the already laid weld metal behind the torch, the gaseous shield around the welding arc, the three "tubes" in the torch (that is, the shielding gas tube, the solid electrode wire, and the current conductor), and the wire guide and contact tube (the part near the tip of the torch from which the electrode exits). I don't care so much about all the interworkings of how the tube and wires interact, but just so long as you can see them at the top of the torch, say, it would be great. How they all come together into the wire guide/contact tube doesn't really matter so much to me; go ahead and cover that up with the outside of the torch. Hopefully that's clear. Let me know if you have any questions, and of course, if you want to make any changes that you think might be helpful, go ahead.

One more thing - when you upload these, please do so on the wikimedia commons – that way any of the wikipedia projects can use those images, and if someday I get around to putting all this info on the spanish wikipedia, it would be really helpful. Thanks again! --Spangineer ∞ 17:43, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] GMAW torch head, cut-away view

Congratulations on achieving Featured Article status.... Very cool. I'm doing some of my regular money making business today, however I should be able to do a roughed-out cut away GMAW that we can use to haggle over the details with. I should be able to work on that this evening, and if not, tomorrow then. I'll post the rough draft JPEG in the commons, and link here for comments. Talk to you soon.... TTLightningRod 18:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] oxy-acetylene gas???

Oxy-acetylene is not a gas, but a kind of torch that uses a mixture of gases. You could say "oxy-acetylene torch" or process or even " oxy-acetylene welding", but strictly speaking, not " oxy-acetylene gas". I am also surprised that robotic welding is called "robot welding," which might better mean the welding of parts to make robots, but I guess if that is the term used in the trade, it has to be used.

Also in the first diagram you are intending to put in place you have two different spellings in the same picture: "electrafied" and "electrified" - the latter being the correct one. Better fix it before displaying it.

Also, simultaneously, at the same time you write "also flows simultaneously" which is redundant - "simultaneously" is enough already.

Also you have used the word "effect" instead of "affect" in "adversely effect the work piece" and I *think* you mean "workpiece" not "work piece". "Workpiece" is in Merriam Webster~ and I really think it is more appropriate. Pdn

Good points - first, regarding oxy-acetylene, I changed the lead to say "oxygen-acetylene gas mixture", since according to what I've read, those torches use a mixture of the gases to create the flame (it's acetylene burning in oxygen). I agree with you on robot welding, but based on what I've read, I believe that robot welding is the more commonly used term. I'll check my sources to verify that soon. As for the diagrams, the text is going to be converted to numbers for easier captioning, so we'll take care of the errors you pointed out. Thanks for that. --Spangineer ∞ 14:45, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, is not the source of the energy in gas welding the combustion of acetylene in oxygen? They are both required for combustion to take place, and thus, the mixture of the two is what provides the energy for welding. That's what I'm trying to say in the lead of the article. Do you disagree? --Spangineer ∞ 16:52, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] forgive the delay

Image:MIG torch discussion image 1.jpg Image:MIG torch discussion image 2.jpg

1) from MIG torch handle with finger trigger. 2) Nozzle, an ectrically isolated cup to "focus" shield gas and protect wire Contact Tip. 3) output face of the nozzle. Filler wire is "pushed" into the hot work piece while enveloped by the shielding gas. 4) Molded dielectric between outer cup and threaded metal nut insert, shown in yellow. 5) Diffuser nut for shield gas output. 6) Contact Tip, with a guide orifice "sized" to the filler wire.

Let's discuss how the images and text can be made more effective.

Please use these illustrations to create translatable numbered list tables for the identified parts. If people find these type of images useful, please let me know where else they would be desired. They are rather simple to create, and it would seem that engineering and drafting students may find that their school projects could have a useful home here in the wiki, instead of just being forgotten after the graded class. TTLightningRod 12:40, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Although the actual images have been replaced by revisions, (click the image) the thumbnails do not seem to update immediately... however, placing the image link in a new location, brings the latest version into view. TTLightningRod 12:56, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Delhi iron pillar

Why is there an image of the Delhi iron pillar on this page? It doesn't appear to be referred to in the text at all, and has little to do with welding.

The history section was cut significantly and that mention was part of what was removed. I have restored the history section that was there several hours ago, and hope that any future desires to condense that section are first discussed here. --Spangineer ∞ 23:41, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Request for editing

Second line in the History section: " Welding was used in practical in welding until about 1900, when a suitable blowtorch was developed." Any ideas what the author may have intended? I would think fire, but I'm not about to guess the intent. Hard to believe that got approved to the main page.

Unfortunately, someone attempted to drastically shorten the history section and it wasn't immediately caught, so for several hours yesterday the history section was in disrepair. It's back to normal now. --Spangineer ∞ 11:31, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wikimania writing contest grand prize

This article won the overall Grand Prize for the Wikimania writing contest, as well as the Natural science & Technology category. Congratulations! Spangineer, if you would be so kind as to drop me a line, I'll see about transferring over the big bag of wiki you've won. +sj + 22:57, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

For those of you not watching the awards ceremony, said bag is 2'x1'x6" with a massive "Wiki" on each side (thanks, Webzen), and riddled with goodness.

[edit] Friction Stir Welding

I notice that this type of welding, which is increasing in popularity (particularly in the aviation industry, where it was recently FAA approved as a fabrication process for the new Eclipse personal jet), gets somewhat short-shrift in the welding section. At the least, a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_Stir_Welding would seem appropriate, yes? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jkh (talk • contribs).

It's tough cover everything in a topic as broad as this, but you're right; that link is a good idea, especially since we have a fairly good article on friction stir welding. I've added it to the solid-state welding section. --Spangineer (háblame) 06:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I might have misunderstood, but the third paragraph of the summary starts 'Until the end of the 19th century' and then goes on to mention siginificant developments in the 1800s. Shouldn't it be 18th century ? (I guess I should 'be bold' and change it) Lee Elms 08:55, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

This article has (and it's children have) a bunch of great images. What we really need, and what I can't find anywhere on the 'net is a photo taken through welding glass of what the welder sees. I might get a friend and try to get a good picture, but if anyone wants to beat me to it, feel free. I'm not making plans right now. —BenFrantzDale 04:48, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea; though I'm not sure where we would put it. Anyway, that has been suggested before, but never acted on—getting a camera into those helmets might be a little tricky. But an image like that would be really great. --Spangineer (háblame) 00:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Put MIG torch image in article

It seems the above MIG torch image would improve the article. This isn't a specialized item of narrow interest. Close up views of a MIG torch are seen every week on popular Discovery Channel TV shows, including American Chopper. Lots of viewers probably wonder what it is and how it works. Putting the above image in the article would make easy to recognize by sight, even if they didn't know the name. Joema 14:30, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that I'm not sure where it would fit. There isn't much discussion of welding torches in this article because of the wide amount of variation between different processes (laser beam welding vs. spot welding vs. MIG welding, etc.). The image is used on GMAW, and may be used on arc welding once that article is properly fleshed out. --Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 04:55, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I missed the image in GMAW. My concern was the proliferation of educational/entertainment shows repeatedly picturing various welding torches (esp. MIG torches), and that viewers would come to Wikipedia trying to identify it by sight. The first place they'd probably look is this article. E.g, American Chopper frequently runs a bumper segment showing a close up view of a MIG torch. Joema 05:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weld Symbols and Drawings

Recommend adding short section on weld symbols or a reference to a new page/longer article on weld symbols. See http://www.welding.com/weld_symbols_welding_symbols.shtml for detailed info from welding.com. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 161.209.206.1 (talk • contribs).

Good idea. There's already an article on Engineering drawing, so I think that they would be good to mention there, but creating a separate page would be good too. Probably Welding symbols. --Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 16:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sculptors and the history of welding

Reinserted the discussion of sculptors who weld -- using American sculptor Jim Gary as an example of one who developed the skill of welding before becoming a sculptor and was renowned for his extremely effective use of the skill. Please let me know what type of references would suffice if the ones provided are not what the editor who deleted the edit had in mind... ---- kb -

This article is already on the long side, and focusing on one particular sculptor is too much detail and does not fit in with the broad style of this article. Mention of something related to sculptors is perhaps worth including, but this material should be on another article. I'm removing the material for now; we can get it back and move it somewhere later. --Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 16:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not insert the begining discussion of the few sculptors who are skilled welders and refer to Gary with a simple, such as Jim Gary and let the link to his article provide details. I have been present when welders "gushed" over his welds as being practically invisible--in his "Universal Woman" for instance, it can be viewed from any direction without seeing the welds--yet they hold the large sculpture of washers and hardware together as if it were cast. The welds in his gigantic dinosaurs are just as "invisible". Sorry about the extensive references, but thought that was the reason for the infomation being edited out... I agree that all that detail is irrelevant for this article, was merely trying to provide the information I thought was called for when it was excluded previously. I disagree about the length -- it is a very good article -- and I think consideration of its highly skilled artistic application would be an additional aspect considered to complete the topic. Let me know here whether that appeals to you and I will write it if you prefer. ---- kb - 2006.06.04

How about this idea: in the "Costs and trends" section, include a general paragraph on the use of welding in non-manufacturing environments (such as art and anything else you can think of), condense the information on costs, and rename the section. Or, potentially even better, is there a specific welding procedure that is most frequently used for artistic welds, such as GTAW? If so, it'd be better to include the information alongside the description of the process. What do you think? --Spangineer^[es] (háblame) 15:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not know enough about the technical aspects of welding to put that together and my only contact with an artist who was highly skilled in welding, was Jim Gary, who died early this year. His large works were composed of automobile parts -- I presume steel. I know that other hardware, tools, and parts he included in his sculpture were steel also -- but he used copper in some small works. I just thought that a discussion of his use of welding in fine art (that drew such compliments from welders) would be another facet of the skill that should be discussed under welding... I would be willing to release a photograph of Universal Woman as an example or the one I provided to the New York Times on their article about his death, which shows him in a field of his dinosaurs. I know that there are few artists who are considered skilled welders, so I thought it would be best here. Let me see what I can find -- looking into it further. ---- kb - 2006.06.06

[edit] Welding terms: need definition of positions

The Submerged arc welding article mentions some welding positions (1F, 1G, 2F, 2G) but doesn't say what they are. The main Welding article should define all of the welding positions. I did some searching and found a page on the JEFF BONNER R&D, INC. website which describes his capabilities; it includes the following text (not to be used as-is, but for informational content only):

Sheet groove weld position: 1G; flat, 2G; horizontal, 3G; vertical, and 4G; overhead position: Sheet fillet weld position: 1F; flat, 2F; horizontal, 3F; vertical , and 4F; overhead Tube groove weld position: 1G; horizontal rolled, 2G; vertical, 5G; horizontal fixed, and 6G; inclined position. Tube fillet weld position: 1F; flat, 2F; horizontal, 4F; overhead, and 5F; multiple position.

I'm guessing the "G" suffix means "groove", and the "F" suffix means "fillet", but we really need confirmation all of this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dtgriscom (talk • contribs) 02:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC).

That's getting rather technical for a general article on welding; besides, there probably isn't an international standard for those anyway. Probably the best way to go would be to have a separate article that lists those abbreviations, but we could also just expand the SAW article so that the actual position names are used. --Spangineer^ws (háblame) 02:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I believe these terms are standard; when I find these terms on the Web, the context almost always implies that the viewer should know what they mean. In addition, the implied meanings seem very consistent. I also think they should be included in the Welding article rather than any subsidiary article. (If we won't include the definitions in the main page, then I agree that the SAW page should use the position names.)

Here's another page that gets a bit more explicit on the terms (although there's still ambiguity: what's the difference between the "Flat" and the "Horizontal" position?): Sim Welder Features Dan Griscom 11:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Bingo. I finally found a relevant page at Fundamentals of Professional Welding: Welding Positions. This states that the various welding positions are defined by the American Welding Society, and then defines each one. Dan Griscom 11:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)