Talk:We Love Katamari

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[edit] Title?

If the ♥ symbol can be used in the redirect title, shouldn't it be able to be used in the main article title? I'm going to try making a test topic just to be sure, then I'm moving the article to "We ♥ Katamari". Eszett 00:16, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

No you aren't. Symbols such as that are not supposed to be used. They don't appear correctly on some browsers. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:38, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
The heart is hardly distinguishable in Arial on the default text size in Firefox. --Poiuyt Man talk 06:23, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Gotcha. I never touched it. Eszett 11:09, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

The heart symbol is part of WGL4, which means it should be available on all Windows platforms, and I believe it's also available on Mac and Linux. We already have an article at I ♥ Huckabees. It should be OK to use. -- Curps 22:04, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

The problem here are the browsers, they change unicode to punycode (like with certain control characters ' ( ) & ). Unicode URLs work fine in Safari, but not in other browsers like IE. Pasting "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_♥_Katamari" in your URL bar will work just fine. Oh, and the escape sequece for the heart is "♥" .Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:37, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi. I'm the one who moved the article: sorry if this disrupted things. I saw the {{wrongtitle}} notice and thought "Well, that's certainly easy enough to fix."

But why does this article need to be "We Love Katamari" while the article I ♥ Huckabees seems to be doing just fine? There are other problems with pasting Wikipedia article names as URLs, anyway, like the fact that you have to change spaces to underscores. RSpeer 16:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

No you don't. It does that automatically. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Link, can you point to the relevant policy? Your opinion that the "heart" symbol doesn't belong in the title seems inconsistent with the current Wikipedia trend of using Unicode wherever possible, especially when it eliminates "wrongtitle" tags. RSpeer 23:26, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

It is general practice to not use symbols that are not understood by some browsers. Regardless, they own the copyright for "We Love Katamari", not "We <3 Katamari". It is not my opinion that using symbols is disadvantageous to many people, that is fact, and wrongtitle is not in place until someone figures out how to make the symbol, it is there to let articles have a wrong title for the sake of other browsers. - A Link to the Past (talk) 23:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
That's ridiculous. It's 2005; I haven't used a computer that had trouble with unicode symbols in years. This is not an unreasonable expectation, and any problems would be easily solved by redirects anyway. --Peter Farago 01:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
It's ridiculous to say that some BROWSERS do not support unicode symbols because yours doesn't? I'm sorry, I guess I didn't realize you represent existence. - A Link to the Past (talk) 05:09, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
The current generation of browsers, as well as the last several generations, all support unicode [1]. --Poiuyt Man talk 14:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
So, We Love Katamari has to be the only article on Wikipedia that ignores this policy? - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:33, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure which policy you're referring to. Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Be careful with special characters only speaks against the use of |, +, {, }, [ and ] which have special meaning in the wiki URL syntax. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions) has nothing to say on the matter. Wikipedia:Unicode, which has been through extensive discussion, defends the use of Unicode here. --Peter Farago 16:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
That does not change the fact that the unicode symbol does not work on some browsers - someone cited IE. Also, you should also realize that Namco owns the copyright for "We Love Katamari", not "We (heart symbol) Katamari". It is recommended to not use unicode, and We Love Katamari is as legitimate as what you want. - A Link to the Past (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Let's continue this conversation at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Typography in Article Titles. --Peter Farago 18:07, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
It's no longer a matter of unicode; the copyright shows the name of the game to be We Love Katamari. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:22, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
I removed "Unicode" from the discussion title, since it can apply to other punctuation as well. Please throw your two cents in where they can be seen and replied to by a larger and more relevant group. --Peter Farago 18:33, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Whether or not it's a unicode problem is irrelevant now, considering Namco copyrighted "We Love Katamari", sans the heart. If it is a unicode problem, it won't matter, as either way, the title remains the same. - A Link to the Past (talk) 18:47, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Please refer to US Trademark #76642305 (fixed link, should not expire). I am moving the page back to its original location. --Peter Farago 19:49, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Please refer to the game's boxart. So, Namco got it wrong, and the US patent office got it right? They couldn't be mistaken in thinking that they owned the copyright of the game with the symbol based on the title, right? - A Link to the Past (talk) 07:44, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm confused. Do you mean this boxart, the same as featured in the article? --Peter Farago 15:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Of course I mean that boxart. But when I'm talking about copyright information, would it be silly to assume that I meant the copyright information? - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:30, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Your point eludes me. Copyright information does not apply to product names and slogans. The heart is used in the box art, it is identified in the U.S. trademark, the use of unicode is a non-issue, and the policy you claimed that it violates does not exist. If you still feel you have a point to make, I invite you to do so on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions or to submit a Request for Comment. For my part, I consider my case stated and the discussion concluded. --Peter Farago 01:09, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreeing with Peter. --Poiso 1:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Silly me, I guess it was insane to assume that what Namco says as their copyright information does not hold priority. So, explain why the boxart that states the copyright to be We Love Katamari is inferior to your evidence provided. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:50, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

The game's title, as shown in the game itself and the box art and the instruction manual, is "We ♥ Katamari" despite whatever the copyright says. If you'd like, make a note somewhere in the article that Namco owns the rights to "We Love Katamari" but not "We ♥ Katamari" ... except I'm not sure you can copyright names that include symbols like that? Perhaps "♥" and "Love" are synonymous to the patent offices? I don't know all the details. Regardless, my game says it's "We ♥ Katamari" so I really don't see the problem with using it - my Internet Explorer shows it just fine... And even moreso if "I ♥ Huckabees" uses the symbol. 24.67.253.203 04:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Note that Firefox on MacOS X (a relatively common platform) can't render the suits symbols, including the heart. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

What versions of each are you using? Check your fonts to see if you have Apple Symbols installed. Also keep in mind that Firefox places a greater range of characters into punycode for security reasons. I'm gonna double check Firefox's support for it. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 04:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks like a bug in the Mac version of Firefox. You should report it to them. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 21:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

New policies at WP:NC#Special_characters meant the heart sign is a violation of WP:UE. --Samuel Curtis-- TALK 10:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soundtrack

A Link to the Past, I don't think it's a good idea to move the soundtrack to a separate page. Unless a particular music album is well-known or critically acclaimed, it doesn't have much potential to become encyclopedic. The We Love Katamari article is stubby enough as it is, and I don't see reason to split off content from it yet. --Poiuyt Man talk 04:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

The fact that it'll be shorter is no good argument. You don't add content to make it big, you add content to make it good. This is about the video game, not the separate soundtrack. Katamari Damacy's soundtrack has its own soundtrack article. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:08, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The soundtrack is directly related to the video game; it's not something that people reference without knowledge of the game it came from. Articles on specific music albums are generally avoided because there's a limit to how comprehensive the article can become without turning into fancruft. How much can you really write about the album? --Poiuyt Man talk 06:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
It just looks worse with it, for one. If you want this on there, there shouldn't be an infobox. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Actually, it might not be necessary to include the soundtrack listing at all, even as a separate article. There's already an external link at the bottom that shows the soundtrack listing. Wikipedia doesn't need to duplicate it. --Poiuyt Man talk 06:41, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to go with Poiuyt Man on this, there is no need for a seperate article for the soundtrack alone. Havok (T/C) 08:56, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Just like there is an article about King of All Cosmos, there should be an article for a separate product. - A Link to the Past (talk) 09:11, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm not so sure that article's necessary either, since much of the information is already covered in Katamari Damacy. Maybe if the character appeared in more than two games it would be justified. --Poiuyt Man talk 20:31, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, I actually owned the soundtrack and listened to it regularly for several months before even seeing the game. I'm a little odd, though. :) --NeuronExMachina 08:37, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Huh, I arrived at that same conclusion independently. I merged the contents of King of All Cosmos into Katamari Damacy and We Love Katamari, without seeing this page. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 13:07, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Machine

The Machine section is ridiculous. It's a reference to what is, essentially, a spoof article. The "genius invention" is more or less the common technique of rubber banding combined with an oscilating fan. It's stupid and adds nothing to the article. Is there any reason it shouldn't be removed?

[edit] Spoiler warning for this section!! - Is (non-named bonus level) a part of the story?

The 1,000,000 roses section hardly seems like it belongs under the "Story" heading, as it doesn't enhance the main plot of the game. Rather, doesn't this seem more appropriate under "Gameplay", or perhaps under a new "Easter Eggs" heading? - Exitmoose 18:29, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Reading through the article again, the "One million roses" section completely breaks the logic of the "Story" heading (which puts forth the idea that there are two components to the story". I'm not even convinced that it should be a part of the article, as it seems more like game advice appropriate for GameFAQs or some such, than a description of the game. As a compromise, I'll move it to a new "Easter Eggs" section. However, I think it should be removed. Thoughts? - Exitmoose 04:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
It's a somewhat important part of the game. Keep it in there for now. -- PinkDeoxys 13:09, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Since this game was released in the US and not in Europe, it seems more appropriate, based on the guidelines in the Wikipedia Manual of Style, to go with US spellings for words in this entry. That means "fulfill," not "fulfil." (See American and British English differences.) --Darksasami 23:22, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

As you can see, it's been out in Europe since February... after you wrote that, granted. This kind of spelling issue shouldn't matter too much anyway, unless they're a grammer nazi. --JaffaCakeLover 18:22, 7 October 2006 (GMT)

[edit] self-contradictory statement

This statement is basically self-contradictory:

However, with the exception of the loading icon being a rose, the Rose Nebula, the Select Meadow being covered in roses, and one extra song, there is no reward outside of the satisfaction of rolling up 1,000,000 roses.

A new song is a pretty significant reward in a game, along with the other things. If this part is true, the "no reward outside of..." part should be removed. Alternately, the new song and all that might be a hoax. Can anyone confirm one way or the other? rspeer 04:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it "self-contradictory." Assuming all the facts are correct, the sentence is perfectly logically coherent. That said, the wording is pretty strange, and should probably be changed. - Exitmoose 07:51, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Speaking as someone who has completed the million rose level, this statement does make some sense, relative to the other major milestone achievements in the game. If you place the game on "autopilot" using the rubberband cheat to obtain the million roses, it takes approximately one week (24 hours a day) to collect them all. There is no extra level to be unlocked after doing this, as there is when you complete the other major levels in the game. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 19:46, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] UK/Europe release

Amazon.co.uk seem to be claiming that there will be a UK release on Feb 3, 2006. this page. If this is so, looks like it should be added to the article. Richard W.M. Jones 19:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

  • Done and done. Think we should add the european box art while we're at it? And what about the japanese and korean ones?

--Boredalot 10:55, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I could scan the European box art, but I don't know how to add it to this page. By that I mean would you have links to the artwork from different regions? I'd only know how to replace the default pic on the right of the page. --JaffaCakeLover 18:28, 7 October 2006 (GMT)

[edit] European differences

We should probably start counting notable differences between the european release and the other versions. Here's a few.

  • The intro cutscene from the original game is included in the Katamari Memorial, claiming to be PAL-exclusive. Is this true?
  • The original "Katamari on the Rocks" can be unlocked for in-game use after clearing the game. Is this song present in the US version as well?

If anyone has played both the European and US releases and could care to provide some insight on version differences, that'd be grand. --Boredalot 11:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)


the PAL version does say that the original's cutscene was included as a bonus because the original game was never released in PAL regions --James 11:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] External links

No need for so many, some should be cut. Havok (T/C/c) 10:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. This was an interesting case. I read all the arguments on this talk page, as well as sections of WP:NC and WP:MOS-T, and discussions on the talk pages there. The closest precedent to this case that I saw was I Love New York. It comes down to this: Special characters can create accessibility problems. I think of the blind person, listening to Wikipedia through a text reader, and I think of a cyber-cafe in Africa, where a teenager is trying to learn about the world, but has no knowledge about "enabling unicode characters" on a early 1990s computer that isn't even his.

As to policy arguments: 1) Manual of Style (trademarks) would suggest that the heart be used when first introduced and thereafter replaced by the word Love. I would take that to refer to its first appearance in the text, and not to address the title. 2) Naming conventions (technical restrictions) would permit the heart symbol in the title. 3) Naming conventions (use English) doesn't address this case; it's about how we handle languages other than English. 4) WP:NC#Special characters, in apparent contradiction with (2) above, would recommend against using the heart symbol in the title.

Except for the last, those are all guidelines, and do not have power to compel, which is just as well when they contradict policy, as in this case. The compelling argument is accessibility, which is a higher priority than fidelity to trademarks. That's why the policy at WP:NC is what it is. -GTBacchus(talk) 22:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

We ♥ Katamari → We Love Katamari — Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Special characters and Wikipedia: Naming conventions (common names) say special characters (like ♥) should be avoided. It's also difficult for some users to see. TJ Spyke 01:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

[edit] Survey - Support votes

  1. Support as the nominatior. TJ Spyke 01:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support in accordance of WP:NC#Special_characters and WP:UE. The heart symbol is not a Latin character and violates WP:UE.--Samuel CurtisShinichian-Hirokian-- TALK·CONTRIBS 06:23, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  3. Support: guidelines are clear. Use English in titles, not silly symbols. Jonathunder 17:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  4. Support, we should not be using symbols that will not work properly on many computers (like the one I have at home, which just displays a thick bar instead of the heart). Recury 20:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
  5. 'Support per nominator and Samuel Curtis. Gene Nygaard 02:02, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  6. Support The only time I've seen a strong argument for use of ♥ was for I ♥ Huckabees because not even the creators of the film agreed if the heart meant "love" or "heart", and even then... We shouldn't make it a habit of using symbols when we don't need to. Remember, people have to type these titles in.. it's a bit pointless to make the task harder for stylistic reasons alone. -- Ned Scott 04:43, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  7. Support as per MoS:TM. ("Avoid using special characters that are [...] simply substitute for English words.") --McGeddon 15:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  8. Support, not only for the special characters rule, but considering that in the Japanese release of the game which predated the NA release, the title does not use special pictorial symbols, and unlike the Huckabees situation, it's clearly intended that the heart symbol is replacing the word "love", despite the fact that Namco uses the heart symbol as the title (Namco PS2 Game Listing). Certainly the issue of the title can be noted in the article, and there's a template for potential display issues that can be heading the page even if it is changed to the non-symbol version page --Masem 16:19, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  9. Strong Support - no special characters; many browsers can't even read them. 146.186.210.78 20:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - Oppose votes

  1. Strongly Oppose. Unicode characters are permitted in article titles. This is directly addresssed at Naming conventions (technical restrictions) - Pictorial names. One example of a Unicode character in an article title is seen in Sign_“☮”_the_Times. The current title of this article is accurate, it is upheld by policy, and it must not be changed. Also, please see the three reasons I have listed in bold in the Discussion section, they cite Wikipedia policies which actually support this usage of the symbol.Joie de Vivre 14:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. I like the heart. It is also the correct name and it isn't causing any problems I can see.--Josquius 22:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:
I don't know which way it should go, there's conflicting examples. Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Album titles and band names even though it's music only, says to replace as needed, though it's kept for Sign of the Times (song and album for Prince) which has the peace symbol replacing the word "of". The discussion for I Heart Huckabees for the same sort of move seems split with no obvious consensus. However, I do note that the Sign of the Times pages have a special "may not display properly" in the page header, which should be used for WLK regardless if we move it or not. --Masem 16:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
(To Joie de Vivre) The article I mentioned specifically mentioned the heart symbol, saying it should NOT be used. TJ Spyke 22:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually, all that it says is that "Non-language characters... are not the common English usage." However, the policy I cited gives explicit approval of the heart character and other Unicode characters in article titles. Joie de Vivre 00:44, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't give explicit approval. The heart is purely decorative and not the actual name, the name of the game is "We Love Katamari". TJ Spyke 00:54, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you prove that We Love Katamari is the real name? Joie de Vivre 17:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
(To Masem) Maybe because it violates the MoS? Other articles have been moved for the same reason. Also, do not remove my reply again. TJ Spyke 22:54, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Masem's redlink is a clincher. Fools will continue to hide articles away with redlinks like that if these are allowed, even with the 14 already existing redirects to that article. Gene Nygaard 02:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
That is incorrect. See Sign of the times. The error was in the capitalization of the T in "times", not in the use of the Unicode character. Blame the Shift key for that redlink (which I've now fixed). Joie de Vivre 05:08, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
That "Sign" displays as a empty block on my system and is a great example of what should be avoided in titles. Jonathunder 14:44, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Your "system"'s lack is not the responsibility of Wikipedia to accommodate. Unicode symbols are permitted in article titles, whether your system is set up to display them properly or not. Setting up a computer to display Unicode is free, it is no hardship to anyone. Joie de Vivre 21:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

This page must not be renamed. This usage of the Unicode heart symbol is protected. Evidence:

1) MoS (trademarks) says "In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears, but thereafter, an alternative that follows the standard rules of punctuation should be used." "We ♥ Katamari" is the trademark. See the NAMCO website.
2) Naming conventions (technical restrictions) gives explicit approval of Unicode symbols in article titles.
3) Regardless of what everyone is saying, WP:UE does not address this issue. WP:UE addresses the use of characters from writing systems other than English. The sentence about using only the Latin alphabet is in reference to other writing systems such as Chinese characters or the Cyrillic alphabet. WP:UE says nothing about the use of symbols, including Unicode.

I think that it doesn't matter how many people have voted to say that they don't like the heart. The simple fact is that the use of the symbol is permitted. The heart symbol is permitted as part of a trademark. It is permitted to use Unicode symbols in titles. WP:UE doesn't touch it. There are no grounds on which to change this title -- the title must not be changed. Joie de Vivre 20:49, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Being allowed and being preferred by a consensus is two different things. Yes, we can use a heart, but we want to spell heart out. "permitted" does not mean "restricted to doing only this". -- Ned Scott 20:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The trademark is "We ♥ Katamari". It is the official title of the game. Popular opinion doesn't change that. An encyclopedia entry should list the proper name, not a phonetic euphemism. Joie de Vivre 23:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
It's a good thing, then, that the trademark does not dictate the title Wikipedia uses for an article. Please do read our naming convention pages. Jonathunder 23:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually (see #1), MoS (trademarks) says "In the article about a trademark, it is acceptable to use decorative characters the first time the trademark appears. "We ♥ Katamari" is the trademark. Also, #2; Naming conventions (technical restrictions) gives explicit approval of Unicode symbols in article titles. Please review the links I listed above, in bold. Joie de Vivre 23:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
So there's also the trademark "Toys "Я" Us", which if you note, is not the name of the main page, you get redirected if you include the special character. We can still use "We ♥ Katamari" all over the page when refering to the game, but the main page should remove the symbol. --Masem 23:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Assuming that you meant that the symbol should be removed from the title, nowhere is that advised in the guidelines. Please review the three links I provided above in bold; the Unicode symbol may be used in the title. 23:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English): "Article titles should use the Latin alphabet, not any other alphabets or other writing systems..." Obviously, the cute little heart symbol is not part of the Latin alphabet. Jonathunder 23:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The heart is not part of any alphabet, and its use is not addressed at WP:UE, because WP:UE does not address the use of symbols. The purpose of WP:UE is to state a clear preference for the Latin alphabet over other alphabets like Cyrillic. The word "symbol" is never mentioned at WP:UE. Neither is the word "Unicode" mentioned. However, there ARE guidelines that specifically address the use of Unicode and other symbols. Those are the guidelines that matter, here, and they all support the use of the heart in the title. Joie de Vivre 00:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, saying it's allowed is not the same thing as saying it's preferred or even encouraged. None of those guidelines say "use this over this" except WP:UE. -- Ned Scott 00:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
And that's why people keep quoting it; because it states a preference. However, that stated preference is for English over other written languages. The guideline simply doesn't address technical character sets like Unicode. It's wrong to keep dragging out a feeble half-sentence from WP:UE, when all mention of technical character sets is conspicuously absent from that page. Joie de Vivre 01:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] WAHT?!

Why is I ♥ Huckabees still the same while this was changed to We Love Katamari‽ --FlareNUKE 07:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Since we have a pretty green box just above this section explaining, perhaps that question is better asked over at the other article. --Golbez 08:20, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page title symbol

While the actual name of the article is now "We Love Katamari", the title at the top of the page now reads We ♥ Katamari. There is a precedent for using a special character in this way, please see the Natto article. The accuracy is improved, while maintaining accessibility. Joie de Vivre 19:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

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