Talk:Water Margin

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[edit] Giantcn

To Giantcn - if you insist on having it your way, fine. You are a mere vandal who will be despised by the wiki community and I do not see how your article which is written in an incomprehensible language, can possibly be beneficial to anyone, given this is an encyclopaedia. Chensiyuan 20:31, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Why are you afraid of keeping my talk intact so that other can know who is ignorant about Water Margin in fact? Why not duel by words on the understanding of Water Margin? Let other wikipedians be the judge, to see whose article is shit and who will be despised by others. taunt and threat are not good ways for fight. I am waiting for you.

                                                              Giantcn

This is turnin out to be quite funny, but it is VERY, VERY evident that Giant is a fool 70.26.180.74 03:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

ya, if you are really sincere you should put it up in the talk page - the grammar is substantially bad. plus syntax. maybe youre better off editing it in your chinese, since i presume ur cn stands for china or sth. keep the main page free of errors for everybodys sake 128.100.167.111 21:09, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

For the sake of everyone, I tried to edit around the entries; as I went along however I realise a shake-up is more appropriate. The entry in general has several other problems associated with whether it is even encylopedic at all - 67.70.88.66

this whole article needs a quality improvement, some sections do not convey the ideas very well.


PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE IF YOU CANNOT WRITE IN ENGLISH DONT BURDEN EVERYONE ELSE ENCYCLOPEDIAS ARE MEANT TO BE EDUCATIONAL 70.48.7.13

[edit] Requests

  • I cleaned up the "Fiction and Realities" section for style and grammar. If anybody can verify the Mao/Deng incident with a source or give more info, that'd be nice. Links to different versions of the story availible in translation would also be handy. Lampros 21:12, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Should there maybe be a synopsis somewhere? And is there a free translation anywhere online? 141.140.125.120 20:25, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello guys! I was wondering if we could start a new section on the plot of Water Margin as in the major happenings in the novel, so as to enable readers to determine whether to read the novel? Thanks. Kiwi8 17:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I started on Chapter 78-80, as the TV show in my country has just finished showing that. Will try to fill in the rest when I have the time. Meanwhile, those of you who know the contents of the novel very well, feel free to fill in the missing chapters, or refine my contribution. Kiwi8 18:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

yeah by all means. just create a new section with a plot synopsis and people would take it from there Chensiyuan 18:16, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

I remember reading in the water margin somewhere that a Taoist priest attached talismans to a fellow outlaw’s arms and legs, which allowed them to run very fast (provided they refrained from eating meat and drinking alcohol). Was this Taoist Gongsun Sheng or Pan Rui?

The reason I ask is because I feel it is note worthy to be added to either magicians’ article. (Ghostexorcist 11:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC))

It was Dai Zhong. Thanks for the answer. The magic running info is already on his page. (Ghostexorcist 18:52, 26 November 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Translations

Could we put a small block of text in all four translations (Buck, Shapiro, Dent-Young, J.H. Jackson), in WikiSource perhaps and link to it, so that a reader can compare the different translations? Or is this totally outside the scope of the "major" Wiki pages? 85.75.96.254 18:25, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a great idea to me. Bertport 19:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zhou Tong

Okay, I’ve got a question for those who have read the original Chinese version of the water margin. Apart from the 'Little Tyrant' Zhou Tong (周通), is there ever a similarly named Zhou Tong (monk) (周侗) (different characters) mentioned in regards to Wu Song, Lin Chong or Lu Junyi in the book? The reason I ask is because the Zhou Tong in question is said, acording to popular chinese legend, to be the martial arts master of these three outlaws.

General Yue Fei’s fictional biography (early - mid Qing Dynasty) explicitly mentions Lin Chong and Lu Junyi as Zhou Tong's students. However there is no historical evidence to support this as far as I know. That having been said, I believe that since the water margin was written well before Yue Fei’s fictional biography (which many take as historical fact), the original author fused elements from that book into his. Thoughts? (Ghostexorcist 07:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Adaptations

Strikes me that some of the adaptations are famous enough in their own right to merit entries. I'm specifically thinking:

However, the recent TV series and other films may also qualify (I don't know much about them though) hence the disambiguous nature of the names. I was thinking along teh lines of the War of the Worlds adaptations eventually. (Emperor 16:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] - - - - 120 chapter version of water margin?- - - -

- - - - I'm very interested in reading this novel as well as well as Romance of the Three Kingdoms, but I read on here that there is an extended 120 chapter version. How can this be when the English translations only have 100 chapters? Will this be available? I want to get it, but somehow feel that I wouldn't be getting the complete story, even though it's 100 chapters... - - - - Cttt —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cttt (talk • contribs) 17:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

It's not like the book was written by an American and translated into Chinese. It's 100% Chinese. There are many versions of it out there, including a 120 chapter version. The English translation is based upon the 100 and 70 chapter editions.(Ghostexorcist 22:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC))

Well, I understand, but is the 120 chapter version available in English?

Cttt

I doubt it. Just go with Sydney Shapiro's 100 chapter translation or learn Chinese. (Ghostexorcist 11:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Thanks, I think I'll do that... I've heard his translation is good...What did you think of it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cttt (talk • contribs).
I think it's excellent. However, I've never read the Chinese version. (Ghostexorcist 04:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Move

I moved this from the header box where it DID NOT belong.(Ghostexorcist 11:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC))

Hi, I have just amended the origins of the Water Margin. However I discover that my amendments were reverted repeatedly. I do not mean to impose myself on this community but I wish to inform the readers of the factual information I have come across while researching on the Water Margin.

As I am now researching critiques of the Water Margin for my work, I have come across numerous citations in various literature reviews published by Chinese scholars on the subject matter. The Water Margin was in fact written by Shi Nai Yan and edited by Luo Guan Zong as mentioned in a symposium for the Water Margin. It is also set in the Northern Song Dynasty as you can find in the novel, it was during the reign of emporer Zhe Zong (哲宗). He was the third last emporer of the Northern Song dynasty and peasant uprisings were common during the end of the Northern Song.

Please understand that Wikipedia is a collaborative effort by everyone to make the articles more accurate, and not merely vandalism. We need to work on the basis of mutual respect, and not dismiss others so quickly.

Talkativeman 08:45, 27 February 2007 (UTC)talkativeman

it's really a credibility issue. for e.g., 中 in Luo's name is clearly Zhong, not Zong. and it's 101% the "Ruan" brothers, not "Yuan" brothers. so when you keep editing otherwise, it seems your research is already suspect. Chensiyuan 17:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from Guo Shiguang

Whichever editor removed the merge tags, please don't repeat that, removal of administrative tags is considered vandalism.

I propose the merger from Guo Shiguang, as it a stub with little to no information about the character, and completely irrelevant outside of the context of the main article Water Margin. The character is not mentioned in the box at the end of article.

If the character's notability isn't asserted, I will be nominating the stub for deletion in 48 hours. Thanks

xC | ☎ 04:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think he is notable to a certain extent because he killed Xuan Zan, but the page is clearly lacking in many areas. I second your merge nomination. (Ghostexorcist 04:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
you didn't even provide a reason for merging, you are the true vandal. suppose i go around putting merge tags without explaining why, would i not be the destructive person. whoever that put the merge tag for no reason, please don't repeat that, as you are wasting people's time. Chensiyuan 06:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
  • He has already provided a perfectly good reason for the merge. He stated the page was "a stub with little to no information about the character, and completely irrelevant outside of the context of the main article Water Margin." I don't see what the problem is. Why do you feel it necessary to attack him? (Ghostexorcist 06:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
it's very simple. he called me a vandal for removing the tag. i removed it because he did not provide a merge reason *at the point* where he put the tag. so he has provided a reason now, but he cannot expect people not to remove the tag when he put it up and offered no reason at that point in time. apart from the fact that i am not attacking him, he chose to call me a vandal first, and without reason, on those two counts.
Well if you have been editing here for a while, you should know better than to delete administrative tags without discussion. Even if he didn't give an explanation at first, a line of discussion should have been at least attempted before anything was deleted. I think him calling you a vandal was in response to your immediate removal of the tag. Now that we know why the tag was removed and put back up, I think we should start discussing the merger instead of throwing names back and forth.(Ghostexorcist 06:53, 8 March 2007 (UTC))
fair enough. that would be counterproductive. how do you propose it be merged. centaur's alternative is to delete it. i cannot understand how that is productive. Water Margin is a classic text; there are some at most 200 characters in Water Margin. while i am not saying every character should be given treatment in WP, insofar as each character was covered to some degree in the story, the notability is obvious. in Guo Shiguang's case, he may not be as significant as the 108, but some of the 108 are also barely mentioned in the story, but the 108 will always remain notable. i don't see why it cannot remain a stub. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chensiyuan (talk • contribs).
moreover, you did not even propose how the two can be integrated. Chensiyuan 06:30, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'll reply pointwise -

  • Kindly do not call me a vandal, that is a personal attack. Please note the language I used - removing the template a second time would be considered vandalism. Please take note of WP:NPA.
  • I have successfully completed over 25 different merges in different fields all over WP. My involvement with Wikipedia:Proposed mergers testifies to that. I have never found it to be a requirement to list reasons for a merge when one of the pages involved is merely a stub.
  • Your assessment that I am wasting people's time is merely your point of view, if you could give me concrete reasons why or how my contributions are wasting people's time, I would be grateful.
  • Proposals for the merger - in such cases, generally one of the following is done -
    • Seperate section for 'bit parts' or characters with small roles to play in the overall story
    • Seperate page altogether for characters of unclear importance. He is not mentioned sufficiently in the main article to warrant a seperate sub-section of his own, but if his role is notable, then he could be in a seperate section on that page. (See Animorphs#Characters)
    • Lastly, any unique implementation which all editors agree to, which preserves the meaning and importance of the character without content forking or duplication of storylines
    • If all the above fail, then the stub is usually turned into a re-direct or nominated for deletion.

Thanks xC | ☎ 07:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

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